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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: stapp59 on December 08, 2013, 05:20 PM



Title: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 08, 2013, 05:20 PM
My addition to the Six Sense gene pool:


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rBkXDoRBSws/UqT3slE3HoI/AAAAAAAACHM/0KpmshUY9E8/s640/IMG_0340.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Vq-Q5nfWrNb2HmbSTe6AL9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

Many thanks to Dave for his design and plans, Paul Shirey for my first kite build - a Sano kit, Ken McNeill for his Muse workshop and all those wonderful kites, Frazer for the suggestion to build, and to all you fellow builders who have shared their experiences online.

My build pictorial is here: https://picasaweb.google.com/101290896467405554640/SixSenseBuild

Please accept this as my application to the HKBS (Home Kite Builders Society), that esteemed worldwide group of like minded kite fanatics.

Comments welcome, be nice...


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Stuart99 on December 08, 2013, 06:13 PM
Awesome looking kite, and I really enjoyed looking at the build documentation! I see you added a leech line, you probably already know, but Davide designed it (at least the std as far as I know) without one. My std SS is a bit loud, but I feel that it helps with speed control a bit, especially if you are going to fly figures or compete. You may want to try flying with it loose when you get a chance.

I put a leech line in my UL, though, to get a bit more bottom end out of it.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 08, 2013, 07:15 PM
Thanks for the comments. We shall see about the leech line.  Finished the kite this afternoon so its out in the car now  ;D

Awesome looking kite, and I really enjoyed looking at the build documentation! I see you added a leech line, you probably already know, but Davide designed it (at least the std as far as I know) without one. My std SS is a bit loud, but I feel that it helps with speed control a bit, especially if you are going to fly figures or compete. You may want to try flying with it loose when you get a chance.

I put a leech line in my UL, though, to get a bit more bottom end out of it.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: JimB on December 08, 2013, 08:23 PM
That is really nice.

Really Nice.

:)


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: coogee on December 08, 2013, 09:45 PM
Looking great, nice build!

Mike


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ca Ike on December 08, 2013, 10:24 PM
Awesome looking kite, and I really enjoyed looking at the build documentation! I see you added a leech line, you probably already know, but Davide designed it (at least the std as far as I know) without one. My std SS is a bit loud, but I feel that it helps with speed control a bit, especially if you are going to fly figures or compete. You may want to try flying with it loose when you get a chance.

I put a leech line in my UL, though, to get a bit more bottom end out of it.
I added one to my std too.  I haven't tightened it yet preferring to see how it flies as planned.  So far speed is very consistent, however it gets loud starting around 6 mph.  Lots of buzz in the keel more so than the wing tips.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 09, 2013, 03:37 AM
Do you still have that asym black and white Exile?  An influence for sure...

That is really nice.

Really Nice.

:)


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: JimB on December 09, 2013, 02:35 PM
I do!

You know I like a well laid out Asym.

;)


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Allen Carter on December 09, 2013, 02:49 PM
Yup, good looking kite for sure.

Congratulations on entry into the HKBS.  :) :)


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: iwan00 on December 10, 2013, 02:12 AM
That's what i call "NICE JOB!!!"
I have thought about asymetry while designing my SSense but i went to clasic desing, now i know it was wrong idea :)

Nice job, SSense will give You a lot of fun in the air.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: DMF on December 10, 2013, 03:08 AM
Looks great!  Great build pics too!


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 10, 2013, 04:23 AM
So I made it out yesterday afternoon for an hour in perfect testing conditions.  20 degrees, light snow, winds to the low teens, wind chill to single digits.  Brrrr.  Someone beam me to San Diego please...

First impression is the SS is a full sized, slower paced, well balanced and behaved, trick capable machine.  Seems most like the ATM than anything else in my bag.  Am going to enjoy spending time with this kite and it does look good in the snow.


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r5BmAN0LfEI/Uqb-DlbhHhI/AAAAAAAACNs/OYWuevKGI6I/s640/IMG_0348.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YtXYKTZEmKviamDHRKsRH9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

The TE gives a gentle buzzing whenever the sail pressure builds up and the kite is not prone to accelerate so I'm not inclined to untie the leech line.

As the upper spreader pulls the LEs together, I went home and replaced the nose with a Tim Benson Superfly configuration which offers better lateral support in this situation. The surgery went well, the kite is back out in the car, and pics added to the build pictorial.

Thanks for all the positive comments.  I am pleased with how this came out.  Now have to order some 3PTs to frame up the UL...


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 10, 2013, 06:17 AM
Sorry for the flying conditions but the kite in this picture looks even nicer than it already did in the first!
 :)


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 11, 2013, 06:29 AM
BTW, I just had a look at your pictures in your Picasa albums. Excellent!  ???
And thanks so much for sharing so much knowledge on constructing the kites and marvellous results!  :)
Cheers!


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 11, 2013, 10:20 AM
Thanks Ara  :) Always something to learn. The goals of most DIYers are to meet their own expectations, learn and share something new, improve current skills, and have fun doing it.  Its nice if you can save a few $$ and meet the minimum expectations of others.  You don't want people casually looking at your work and saying "Sooo you did that yourself did you?"  ::)

BTW, I just had a look at your pictures in your Picasa albums. Excellent!  ???
And thanks so much for sharing so much knowledge on constructing the kites and marvellous results!  :)
Cheers!



Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: mdilucca on December 11, 2013, 04:53 PM
Thank you so much Steve for posting such a detailed set of pictures of the building process.  They are going to be very handy when I start building my SS.   I'm particularly impressed with the way that you attached the trailing edge binding to the curvature of the sail.  I'll definitely want to try this method and I wonder if somebody else can comment on this as well.

Have you also modified the nose construction somehow, or its according to the plans.

Cheers and many thanks for sharing your work :)
Mario


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 11, 2013, 04:58 PM
I took the time this morning to read through the other threads about the SS.  Some good information for sure.  Sugarbaker should get a prize. ;)  I'm intrigued with the questions about tuning and tweaking the SS as those who know me know I'm always changing and testing something.

I've been out for three short sessions now.  It's cold out there!

The little bit I've tweaked the bridle let's me know it's already in the right spot with David's settings.  Going up with the TP quickly kills the feedback and drive. There may be some drive gain on the UL by dropping the TP but the Std doesn't seem to need it.  There is no appreciable oversteer so you could go in some though I'm not sure the point as I don't like oversteer on bigger kites.

The upper spreader is interesting as none of my other kites pull in the leading edges as does the SS.  I currently have four USs in the bag; the original spec and three more each 1/2" longer in succession.  That's right, a full 1.5" difference shortest to longest.  The SS is quite tolerant of this.  The shortest US gives the most accessible tricking, the widest wind range and the least acceleration.

Longer USs lower and narrow the wind range, tighten the spin radius somewhat, grabs the wind more aggressively which loads the sail more quickly.  Tricks are still there but you have to be more deliberate.  If you fly in low winds a lot you might give this a try.  Will play with the USs on the UL when that is finished.

Some older designs used to ship with different length USs to tailor the wind range and kite feel.

Overall the SS feels like a kite to just fly rather than tweak.   


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 11, 2013, 05:04 PM
No problem! Be sure to read the other post in this forum section as there are several build sessions described.  Do a search on "Six Sense".

The plans did not really specify a nose construction but as you look at the various builds you'll see a trend towards the second nose I ended up with which offers more LE support and works better than what I did originally

Post your progress as you build and ask questions as there are more than one way to build a kite...

Thank you so much Steve for posting such a detailed set of pictures of the building process.  They are going to be very handy when I start building my SS.   I'm particularly impressed with the way that you attached the trailing edge binding to the curvature of the sail.  I'll definitely want to try this method and I wonder if somebody else can comment on this as well.

Have you also modified the nose construction somehow, or its according to the plans.

Cheers and many thanks for sharing your work :)
Mario


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: mdilucca on December 13, 2013, 02:47 PM
Thank you Steve :)

I wonder what kind of double sided tape did you use and how easy was to sew it through.

Cheers
Mario


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 13, 2013, 05:01 PM
3M924 ATG 1/4 available from framingsupplies.com.  Use 1/4" for most all seams.  1/2 and 3/4" is useful for nose and reinforcements.

It is fairly aggressive and will stick to your needle.  Keep some goof off on a small rag nearby to wipe the needle between long seams.  My machine has no problem motoring through with a little glue on the needle.  The family Singer is a total POS when working with kites.

My best suggestion is to tape some sample seams and start test sewing before attempting the actual project.  It will be very difficult and frustrating if the machine jams up, drops stitches, or breaks thread.  Make sure you can sew several long seams with confidence.

My settings:

Machine   Pfaff 1473
Thread   Poly V30 black
Needles   Sharp 70 on most all sail stitching
           Denim 80 for velcro
   
Sewing Stitches   
Sail           3S ZZ, 5.0x2.5
Sail reinforcements   ZZ, 3.0x2.0
TE binding   ZZ, 3.0x3.0
LE tunnel   3S ZZ, 4.0x2.5
Tail velcro   Straight
Nose     ZZ, 2.0x1.0

Also be sure to read the follow up notes from the Muse workshop:

http://www.kenmcneill.com/keystone/ (http://www.kenmcneill.com/keystone/)

Steve
 

Thank you Steve :)

I wonder what kind of double sided tape did you use and how easy was to sew it through.

Cheers
Mario


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ca Ike on December 13, 2013, 08:16 PM
No problem! Be sure to read the other post in this forum section as there are several build sessions described.  Do a search on "Six Sense".

The plans did not really specify a nose construction but as you look at the various builds you'll see a trend towards the second nose I ended up with which offers more LE support and works better than what I did originally

Post your progress as you build and ask questions as there are more than one way to build a kite...

Thank you so much Steve for posting such a detailed set of pictures of the building process.  They are going to be very handy when I start building my SS.   I'm particularly impressed with the way that you attached the trailing edge binding to the curvature of the sail.  I'll definitely want to try this method and I wonder if somebody else can comment on this as well.

Have you also modified the nose construction somehow, or its according to the plans.

Cheers and many thanks for sharing your work :)
Mario
Just to clarify something here.  The nose on the sixth sense is sewn exactly like the invictus.   Second be sure of your leading edge fitting measurements.  On every plan I did except for the vortex, they always say "measured from the nose".  What I find is that most are measured from the nose end of the rod at the corner of the webbing and some are measured from the center of the spine at the nose.  ON my sixth sense build I had issues with not wanting to backflip easily, JL well and flat refusing to one pop roll up.  I double checked my measurements and have since lowered the stops 3/8" which should correct these issues (haven't tested yet).  This makes it so that the measurements for the fittings are exact if you measure from the corner of the nose webbing and not from the center of the spine at the nose.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: mdilucca on December 13, 2013, 10:58 PM
No problem! Be sure to read the other post in this forum section as there are several build sessions described.  Do a search on "Six Sense".

The plans did not really specify a nose construction but as you look at the various builds you'll see a trend towards the second nose I ended up with which offers more LE support and works better than what I did originally

Post your progress as you build and ask questions as there are more than one way to build a kite...

Thank you so much Steve for posting such a detailed set of pictures of the building process.  They are going to be very handy when I start building my SS.   I'm particularly impressed with the way that you attached the trailing edge binding to the curvature of the sail.  I'll definitely want to try this method and I wonder if somebody else can comment on this as well.

Have you also modified the nose construction somehow, or its according to the plans.

Cheers and many thanks for sharing your work :)
Mario
Just to clarify something here.  The nose on the sixth sense is sewn exactly like the invictus.   Second be sure of your leading edge fitting measurements.  On every plan I did except for the vortex, they always say "measured from the nose".  What I find is that most are measured from the nose end of the rod at the corner of the webbing and some are measured from the center of the spine at the nose.  ON my sixth sense build I had issues with not wanting to backflip easily, JL well and flat refusing to one pop roll up.  I double checked my measurements and have since lowered the stops 3/8" which should correct these issues (haven't tested yet).  This makes it so that the measurements for the fittings are exact if you measure from the corner of the nose webbing and not from the center of the spine at the nose.

Thank you so much for the clarification :) I'm not there yet, but I was wondering about these measurements.


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ca Ike on December 13, 2013, 11:52 PM
NP.  For me my first impression of this kite was less than thrilling and bordering on sheer disappointment in the trick department.  However, knowing how home built projects can go, the first thing I always do is double check everything done in final assembly after the first test.  95% of the time it comes down to a misinterpretation of the plans in some small way or a flat out mistake in measuring.  When you do get to building, triple check everything during sail panel assembly since fixing badly cut or sewn panels is a royal pain. 


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: stapp59 on December 14, 2013, 07:55 PM
Thanks for joining in the discussion CA Ike.  For the first several kites I built I had the good fortune to have a finished kite to refer when there were questions.  Almost anything can be reproduced accurately that way.

Reading through the previous build posts there have been questions about the frame, bridle, nose and standoffs.  Not all details are entirely obvious to the new builder.

Looks like mine did pretty well except for redoing the nose.  Assuming proper techniques and craftsmanship, I agree that most build problems are likely misinterpretation of the plans or measurement errors.

I'm hopeful your new LE fitting locations will help the SS fly like what we see in the various videos that have been posted.  It's pretty amazing how much of a flying difference a change as small as 1/4" can make.

Cheers,
Steve


Title: Re: YASS - Yet another Six Sense
Post by: Ca Ike on December 15, 2013, 12:20 AM
Yea I can't knock the kite in any way yet since I could see the potential and what it wanted to do and was really impressed with the precision and speed control.  Now on mine I went with the comp frame instead of the pro but had to use the pro frame specs.  I also had to go with long jaco sail stays where the plans call for short because thats what I had and there is about a 3mm difference between the two.  Now when you go from a nitro to a 5pt there is also a difference that needs to be compensated for in standoff length to keep the same sail tension.  Thats what I will have to look at next if flight performance still isn't up to what Davide designed into it.   It never ceases to amaze me how a small change can affect how a kite flies and how many different types changes can have the same affect.