GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: stapp59 on February 15, 2014, 09:52 PM



Title: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 15, 2014, 09:52 PM
Now that I'm building it seems natural to explore more into design.  Have been tweaking and modding kites for years but have never changed the sail shapes or overall frame geometry. It strikes me that many classic designs now retired and out of circulation would do well by today's standards if they had a little updating. To that end I now have a bag of classic kites to examine their designs and flight characteristics and perhaps how they might evolve into something still relevant today.

A couple weeks ago I picked up a used Psycho from Allen and DD sent me some alternate bridle and other tweaking information.   I pulled out the kite and assembled it with the thought of tossing it in the car for some test flying.  The kite had seen some wear so I thought maybe I'll replace the nose.  The Velcro tail piece is worn and the LE has a spot to tape. The sail panels were in fine shape but wondered how the kite would fly with an Icarex sail.  If you're going to do that with the sail, why not try a skyshark frame to update the .2300 pulltruded original frameset.

Over the next few days I had a new set of templates, an Icarex sail, and a recycled P200/5PT frame.


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--4xsAUZ-s0A/UwA00SGeBOI/AAAAAAAACkc/9YYviMaXxQs/s400/IMG_0622.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qcJSuKbl3rLvrI16QxFhqdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

Have already made some small changes.  The keel is an inch longer to give weights more leverage and a broader keel to tame the handling a smidge.  The standoffs are 1/2" longer for a nice taut sail.  Still have to tie a bridle and will start with a stock bridle.  The are many things to test and tweak with the bridle, standoffs, upper spreader, weights, yo-yo stoppers, etc.

Minimally I have a Psycho in like new condition (that looks like a lighthouse) and with some tweaking am bound to learn something and just may end up with a really nice flying kite.

A few more pics on Picasa and more details after flying...


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on February 15, 2014, 10:10 PM
Really interested to see how it flies. I like the original with bridle tweaks. I enjoy the overall speed of it
8):P


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on February 15, 2014, 10:34 PM
Why would you put a weight on a psycho????????

The stranger came in icarex and nylon....... Did fine


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: Ca Ike on February 15, 2014, 11:55 PM
I've done a lot of this myself over the years and came to one conclusion.  By the time your done tweaking you normally end up right back where you started as far as specs go just with different materials.  Some kites are just perfect the way they are and all it takes is a good hand at the lines to get them to perform.   The Psycho is a capable kite once you can get a handle on the speed.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 16, 2014, 04:47 AM
Right now I expect it to fly just like a Psycho, because that's what it is.  ;) 

I was toying with buying a Micron to have something zippy when the winds pick up.  Don't think I'll need that now  ;D

Really interested to see how it flies. I like the original with bridle tweaks. I enjoy the overall speed of it 8):P

To see how many times it rolls up with the flick of the wrist :D

I was sent a lead on a Stranger.  It's brand new and also Nylon. Have not flown it yet.

Why would you put a weight on a psycho????????

The stranger came in icarex and nylon....... Did fine

I agree most kites are well designed and fly fine just as they are.  I've spent years playing with the Exile and still fly the Std and UL almost completely stock as Ken shipped them. I did find you can adjust the upper spreader and affect the speed and handling a bit.  Also now have a vent and two different SULs.  The vent took some experimentation and the SULs needed bridle, standoff, and US adjustments to reach potential.

I may or may not find any improvements tinkering with kites.  Always fun though and lots to learn.

I've done a lot of this myself over the years and came to one conclusion.  By the time your done tweaking you normally end up right back where you started as far as specs go just with different materials.  Some kites are just perfect the way they are and all it takes is a good hand at the lines to get them to perform.   The Psycho is a capable kite once you can get a handle on the speed.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: KaoS on February 16, 2014, 02:32 PM
Some kites are just perfect the way they are ...


Nothing is perfect the way it is ...

Just like every racing driver prefers a different setup for different tracks or conditions, golfers are always tweaking their clubs (that the manufacturers tell us are the "perfect" clubs for our game), and different audiophiles have different settings on their equalisers... we all have our individual preferred response from our sport kites.  How do we get this? Tweaking!

That's why every "number one" flyer in the R-Sky squad has a unique bridle on their personal Nirvana.   ;)



Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: photogbill on February 18, 2014, 08:10 AM

That's why every "number one" flyer in the R-Sky squad has a unique bridle on their personal Nirvana.   ;)


That's interesting to know!


Title: Psycho revisited update 1
Post by: stapp59 on February 23, 2014, 03:30 PM
So why rehash an old design like the Psycho?

Kevin said it well - nothing is perfect and improvements are made by tweaking and testing different ideas. Plus I have the thing, can build kites now, and would like to see what I've learned over the years. There are a number of very good designs no longer in production that should not be forgotten.

After construction, I installed an adjustable bridle set to the factory measurements. The bridle has all three legs independently adjustable and the pigtail convertible between a three point and turbo configuration.  Prism started that idea I think ;). There are pictures of the bridle on Picasa. Into the car trunk waiting for some wind.

The Psycho flight characteristics are well known. The kite needs a steady 5 mph or so to stay in the air, is a lot of fun in 8+, and gets zippy in higher winds. The kite has oversteer, spins tight and stalls easily, axels and flips quickly with little hand movement, and requires steady attention or you'll find it on the ground. I quickly remembered why I did not get along well with this kite before. :(

After verifying the expected stock (shock) behavior, I started tuning the bridle more to my liking. It turns out the bridle is as much responsible for the Psycho's characteristics as is the high aspect ratio. 

The factory bridle settings:
Uphaul:    18.75
Outhaul:    21.25
Inhaul:   18.75

When I was done after the first session, the bridle legs measured:
Uphaul:    17.25
Outhaul:    19.5
Inhaul:    18.75"

I have never moved a bridle so far on a kite before.  Almost two inches is a lot and will destroy the tuning of many kites. The Psycho however is more predictable at these settings. With the tow points moved out I can actually stand there and fly figures.  Forget crisp square corners with this kite; it is the Psycho after all. Hand movements for tricks now resemble something closer to what I'm used to.

The turbo bridle published in "psycho therapy" also move the tow points out to help tame the kite. After the first session I overlayed the turbo bridle on top of the three point and noted the tow points are even further out towards the leading edge with the turbo.

Turbo bridle from Psycho Therapy:
Uphaul    11-13.5" (variable)
Outhaul    12.5"
Inhaul    23.25"  (inhaul seems too long)
Turbo:    5"

I decided to work more with the three point and moved the tow points all the way out towards the LE.  The measurements are now:
Uphaul:    15.0
Outhaul:    15.0
Inhaul:    20.0"

With these settings the oversteer is completely gone and the kite is quite controllable and predictable! The kite still spins around the lower leading edge fitting but but does not stall when spinning. Other hand motions are typical as one would expect. Axels can be done more slowly.

The P200/5PT frame works well, seems plenty stiff, and there was no bending or tip shudder during gusts.  The taut sail and tight leech line also perform well and the kite is silent with an occasional light buzzing in big gusts. The kite is surprisingly smooth in bumpy winds and I estimate the workable wind range around 5-20. The Psycho does fine on 50' lines which is nice for small fields.

I have yet to try more than a few tricks but the kite seems quite capable.  I don't see any need for the trick line. I will fly the kite at these settings for a while before changing anything else and expect a small tweak on the uphaul to tune the AoA.

For those that decry an alternate bridle as tantamount to a lobotomy of the poor Psycho, rest assured the kite is quite tolerant of bridle changes.  You can tune the level of neurotic behavior that best suits your personality - sane to psycho.  I call my current settings "delusions of competence".

Also well documented, the Psycho will do ABT (all the basic tricks), rolls up with a wrist flip, and does not like to sit in a back flip for very long. I'm going to punch additional holes in the trailing edge and play with the standoff position.  Maybe add a second standoff and make it look like a little Nirvana. Oui?

Lastly I want to try stoppers and 5-10 grams of weight.

Whatever the final results, I'm already happy with the project. I can faithfully reproduce a classic kite, have learned some things, and now actually like the thing. If you have a Psycho gathering dust, you may want to pull it out and give an alternate bridle a try.

For the those actively following this thread (2-3 at last count), I'll post updates as testing continues.  Feel free to share your own Psycho experiences (kite related please).


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on February 23, 2014, 04:00 PM
How would you compare that frame to the 6mm?


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: Allen Carter on February 23, 2014, 04:19 PM
Yeah, but how does it fly off the back of a ship?   :)

(Old skool Psycho reference)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: Allen Carter on February 23, 2014, 04:22 PM
But seriously, this is a fun project, and I'm looking forward to some high wind reviews.


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 23, 2014, 05:04 PM
Statically it's a wash.  Both the original and my reproduction weigh in ~7.6 oz give or take a little.

I have a crude setup where  I suspend a 4.5lb steel block from the middle a given tube suspended at each end at a distance of 30" then measure the deflection with a ruler.  This gives a rough idea of the static stiffness.

Both the P200 and the Excel .2300 (6mm) deflect at 1.25 inches.  The P2X is a little stiffer at 1.125 deflection.

I don't think I'd reframe your original unless you want something really stiff like a P3X or Nitro even.  Yikes!

How would you compare that frame to the 6mm?


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 23, 2014, 05:12 PM
I have a friend with a water ski boat.  May be able to find the exploding wind speed for the Psycho later this summer.  ???  Bring on those Nitro Strongs baby.  :D

Seriously have been lucky to have a few sessions with winds in the teens.  With the crazy winter there will be some fronts coming thru to stress the Psycho.  Have been using 90# lines and have 150# and 200# in the bag if needed.  I've never folded a frame in the wind before.  Always a first! 

I take that back, lost a LS on a Mantis vent once, snapped in half after considerable distortion. That was a 5PT.

Yeah, but how does it fly off the back of a ship?   :)
(Old skool Psycho reference)

But seriously, this is a fun project, and I'm looking forward to some high wind reviews.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on February 23, 2014, 05:59 PM
Yeah, but how does it fly off the back of a ship?   :)

(Old skool Psycho reference)
or on a bridge?


Title: Re: Psycho revisited update 1
Post by: mr wojtas on February 24, 2014, 03:43 AM
So why rehash an old design like the Psycho?

Kevin said it well - nothing is perfect and improvements are made by tweaking and testing different ideas. Plus I have the thing, can build kites now, and would like to see what I've learned over the years. There are a number of very good designs no longer in production that should not be forgotten.

After construction, I installed an adjustable bridle set to the factory measurements. The bridle has all three legs independently adjustable and the pigtail convertible between a three point and turbo configuration.  Prism started that idea I think ;). There are pictures of the bridle on Picasa. Into the car trunk waiting for some wind.

The Psycho flight characteristics are well known. The kite needs a steady 5 mph or so to stay in the air, is a lot of fun in 8+, and gets zippy in higher winds. The kite has oversteer, spins tight and stalls easily, axels and flips quickly with little hand movement, and requires steady attention or you'll find it on the ground. I quickly remembered why I did not get along well with this kite before. :(

After verifying the expected stock (shock) behavior, I started tuning the bridle more to my liking. It turns out the bridle is as much responsible for the Psycho's characteristics as is the high aspect ratio. 

The factory bridle settings:
Uphaul:    18.75
Outhaul:    21.25
Inhaul:   18.75

When I was done after the first session, the bridle legs measured:
Uphaul:    17.25
Outhaul:    19.5
Inhaul:    18.75"

I have never moved a bridle so far on a kite before.  Almost two inches is a lot and will destroy the tuning of many kites. The Psycho however is more predictable at these settings. With the tow points moved out I can actually stand there and fly figures.  Forget crisp square corners with this kite; it is the Psycho after all. Hand movements for tricks now resemble something closer to what I'm used to.

The turbo bridle published in "psycho therapy" also move the tow points out to help tame the kite. After the first session I overlayed the turbo bridle on top of the three point and noted the tow points are even further out towards the leading edge with the turbo.

Turbo bridle from Psycho Therapy:
Uphaul    11-13.5" (variable)
Outhaul    12.5"
Inhaul    23.25"  (inhaul seems too long)
Turbo:    5"

I decided to work more with the three point and moved the tow points all the way out towards the LE.  The measurements are now:
Uphaul:    15.0
Outhaul:    15.0
Inhaul:    20.0"

With these settings the oversteer is completely gone and the kite is quite controllable and predictable! The kite still spins around the lower leading edge fitting but but does not stall when spinning. Other hand motions are typical as one would expect. Axels can be done more slowly.

The P200/5PT frame works well, seems plenty stiff, and there was no bending or tip shudder during gusts.  The taut sail and tight leech line also perform well and the kite is silent with an occasional light buzzing in big gusts. The kite is surprisingly smooth in bumpy winds and I estimate the workable wind range around 5-20. The Psycho does fine on 50' lines which is nice for small fields.

I have yet to try more than a few tricks but the kite seems quite capable.  I don't see any need for the trick line. I will fly the kite at these settings for a while before changing anything else and expect a small tweak on the uphaul to tune the AoA.

For those that decry an alternate bridle as tantamount to a lobotomy of the poor Psycho, rest assured the kite is quite tolerant of bridle changes.  You can tune the level of neurotic behavior that best suits your personality - sane to psycho.  I call my current settings "delusions of competence".

Also well documented, the Psycho will do ABT (all the basic tricks), rolls up with a wrist flip, and does not like to sit in a back flip for very long. I'm going to punch additional holes in the trailing edge and play with the standoff position.  Maybe add a second standoff and make it look like a little Nirvana. Oui?

Lastly I want to try stoppers and 5-10 grams of weight.

Whatever the final results, I'm already happy with the project. I can faithfully reproduce a classic kite, have learned some things, and now actually like the thing. If you have a Psycho gathering dust, you may want to pull it out and give an alternate bridle a try.

For the those actively following this thread (2-3 at last count), I'll post updates as testing continues.  Feel free to share your own Psycho experiences (kite related please).

I have a psycho in the bag, and fly i not a much as i'd like because of the oversteer. I think i'm going to try your bridle meassurments.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited update 1
Post by: stapp59 on February 24, 2014, 04:07 AM
Have fun!  Make sure the uphaul is adjustable so you can fine tune for your conditions.  Let us know what you think...

I have a psycho in the bag, and fly i not a much as i'd like because of the oversteer. I think i'm going to try your bridle measurements.


Title: When a Stranger knocks
Post by: stapp59 on February 25, 2014, 08:04 PM
Lil Psycho has a bigger cousin visiting for an extended stay.  Looks to be from the same lighthouse district.  Should add to the fun...


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-q_VycflhyFo/Uw1PliiYDCI/AAAAAAAACoY/CeonlXlkxLc/s640/IMG_0649.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/101290896467405554640/PsychoBuild)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on February 26, 2014, 04:13 AM
wow..you are prolific! i remember someone stacking them in past..i do not remember the outcome....


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 26, 2014, 04:35 AM
You are the second person already who asked about stacking those.  The Stranger/Psycho pair would make an attractive progressive stack flying off the back of that speed boat this summer.  ???  I have stacking lines so who knows...

wow..you are prolific! i remember someone stacking them in past..i do not remember the outcome....


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on February 26, 2014, 04:51 AM
well i think that these matching ones would make a great looking stack....the standard versions colors would be sort of hideous together :P


Title: Psycho reframe?
Post by: stapp59 on February 26, 2014, 12:45 PM
As SKB pointed out to me, if you are breaking a bunch of LLEs on your psycho, SS tubes may prove more durable than the pultruded tubes.  That's a good reason to reframe.

I've not flown the original and clone during the same sessions though I generally do prefer the SSs given a choice.  I know I preferred P200s in the Sanos (another 7' duallie) over the Eastons so I reframed all my Sanos and used the Easton tubes for upper spreaders in other projects.

Bottom line if you are actively flying the Psycho, I'd be inclined to reframe. An opinion.

Statically it's a wash.  Both the original and my reproduction weigh in ~7.6 oz give or take a little.

I have a crude setup where  I suspend a 4.5lb steel block from the middle a given tube suspended at each end at a distance of 30" then measure the deflection with a ruler.  This gives a rough idea of the static stiffness.

Both the P200 and the Excel .2300 (6mm) deflect at 1.25 inches.  The P2X is a little stiffer at 1.125 deflection.

How would you compare that frame to the 6mm?


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DMF on February 26, 2014, 04:44 PM
Those kites look great!  THe lighthouse effect is awesome.  My first impression was to stack as well, and I agree with Thief you are prolific


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on February 27, 2014, 03:27 AM
Thanks for the comments DMF!  Wanted to play with the asym idea a bit more.  Not as radical looking as I thought it might be and easy to track in the air.  :D

Those kites look great!  THe lighthouse effect is awesome.  My first impression was to stack as well, and I agree with Thief you are prolific


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DMF on February 27, 2014, 08:00 AM
I might try your lighthouse theme on a sixth sense, if you don't mind ;)


Title: Inspiration from everyday things
Post by: stapp59 on February 27, 2014, 04:58 PM
Have at it DMF.  I can't take much credit for originality.  :)

I might try your lighthouse theme on a sixth sense, if you don't mind ;)

St Augustine lighthouse.  Except for the stripes going the wrong way, they got it right :) Have been here twice. My pic.


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-y1ManN_-4ew/UxYt96sLJlI/AAAAAAAACsw/G8lnl9zmNbY/s400/IMG_2723.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/kqwUv3T2wX6setouZhhABtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r5Bm/IMG_0348.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/YtX)

Dress needs a red top.


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-DYSLJYpor6k/UxYt8yKamgI/AAAAAAAACso/If-7ZQo9KtE/s400/Lighthouse%2520dress.png) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Pp5TgB1lPpdJCdvspl2G3NMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

Inspired!  :D


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-j7rr6B9X6ys/Uw1PmmrCCsI/AAAAAAAACog/W50OZZEkLK0/s400/IMG_0652.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7RpgsGru7knQ4WjyDWLGVdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


Title: Stranger first sessions
Post by: stapp59 on March 04, 2014, 01:18 PM
Stranger first flights:

When tying the bridle for the Stranger I decided to ignore the stock settings and tie something similar to what's on the Psycho with wider tow points.  This was initially too wide and low but after several iterations found reasonable bridle settings at:

Steve's 3 point
Uphaul:    19.0
Outhaul:    22.0
Inhaul:   25.0

The stock measurements are:

Factory 3 point
Uphaul:    23.75
Outhaul:    31.0
Inhaul:    23.75

There was an alternate turbo published some time back that I have not tried yet:

Uphaul   21.25" 54cm
Outhaul   29.5" 75cm
Inhaul    24.5" 62cm
Turbo     4.0" 10cm 

Winds have been lower the past several days but enough to get the Stranger up for a few sessions. 

The Stranger is big with an 8 1/2' wingspan.  The LEs are too long for my car trunk :( It floats better than the smaller 7' Psycho but still needs 5+ winds to be useful.  The Stranger is surprisingly slower paced and not prone to speed up in gusts perhaps due to the longer wider keel and wide spaced standoffs.  ABTs seem to be there and it rolls up easily without weight in the tail or stoppers.  In some ways it reminds me of the Mantis as it does easy endless cascades.  The window may not be as wide as some but more flying is needed.  Do not know what the top wind range is yet.

Does anyone still fly these?


Title: Re: Stranger first sessions
Post by: Allen Carter on March 04, 2014, 01:44 PM

Does anyone still fly these?

I had one for a while a few years ago and it was certainly a unique kite. I've always been on the lookout for the poly/wrapped frame version to keep.

I liked the size of it, and some stuff was loads of fun. I didn't like the flight quality but never tuned it much from stock. I let it be the trend setting dinosaur it was.


Title: Psycho in a little more wind
Post by: stapp59 on March 15, 2014, 06:57 AM
Yesterday was well suited for Lil Psycho.  Wind meter showed bumpy winds averaging in the mid teens with gusts to 20.  As mentioned, the kite will fly down to 5 but needs 8 to be fully powered up and is most fun in the mid teens.  With the leech line, the sail is silent.  Only when spinning tightly in the middle of the window during the big gusts did I hear humming in the sail and some tip shimmy in the LLEs.

Am not sure what the upper wind range of this kite is yet.  I left the bridle at the same setting I had been using for lower winds and the sail pressure only started to build in the 20+ gusts.  If the winds were higher I'm sure the uphauls could be pulled in a little to shed the extra sail pressure. I was on 75' by 150# lines but 90# would have been ok for the most part.

The P200/5PT frame seems to be a good match as the kite felt very solid most of the time. The little tip shimmy in the gusts suggest that P300s or even Nitros in the LLEs would be an option if you live in a high wind area.

The kite is just fun and with the new bridle much easier to fly and predictable.  It rolls up easily without any additional weight.  It was fun to pull a fade launch and with a wrist flick put it back on the ground in the same pre launch belly down position.  It will need stoppers if you want to fly it wrapped up.

Does anyone have a good method for estimating the proper position of the stoppers on a new kite?  Otherwise I'll just take a good guess with a couple of extra holes on either side.

If you don't have something like this or a mingem in your bag for those blustery beach days, you should...

 


Title: Re: Psycho in a little more wind
Post by: inewham on March 15, 2014, 04:19 PM
Does anyone have a good method for estimating the proper position of the stoppers on a new kite?  Otherwise I'll just take a good guess with a couple of extra holes on either side.

The usual rule of thumb is 2/5 down the LE from the nose.


Title: Re: Psycho in a little more wind
Post by: stapp59 on March 16, 2014, 06:31 AM
Thanks Ian!  I'll see where 2/5th LE puts the stoppers..

Does anyone have a good method for estimating the proper position of the stoppers on a new kite?  Otherwise I'll just take a good guess with a couple of extra holes on either side.

The usual rule of thumb is 2/5 down the LE from the nose.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on April 05, 2014, 05:36 AM
Still haven't found the upper range of this kite yet.  Yesterday had a front come through with high wind warnings.  My wind meter read mid teens with gusts to low 30s.  I think a lot of the Exile vent but had to put it away for fear of breaking something.  Big sails can generate big pull!

Pulled out little Psycho and it did just fine.  It generated pull but never stressed the 150# lines.  I could get a llittle tip shimmy and sail TE buzz in the big gusts but never worried about the kite.  Did not adjust the bridle and forward speed did not build much. 

Speaking of the bridle, I still very much appreciate a sane tight spin without oversteer.

Fun and interesting what the kite will do if you can punch forward fast enough to get some slack in the lines. Was able to roll and unroll even without stoppers or weight installed.  Tip wraps are easy if not careful.  Nothing like a fast wrapped tip spin in high winds.  :D

I would expect sustained upper 20's would start to stress the P200/5PT frame.  Nitro LLEs and perhaps LSs would make this one strong little kite...


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 15, 2014, 07:27 PM
What to call a group of three?


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aYLK7DIsiqQ/U3V2A-jJpyI/AAAAAAAADHQ/-dPbXOCZ8AM/s400/IMG_0780.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/xajPZNpULvj4xrO6bNCFEdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


Title: Re: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on May 15, 2014, 08:58 PM
What to call a group of three?


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aYLK7DIsiqQ/U3V2A-jJpyI/AAAAAAAADHQ/-dPbXOCZ8AM/s400/IMG_0780.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/xajPZNpULvj4xrO6bNCFEdMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)
Obviously that is a "ward":D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: coogee on May 16, 2014, 02:38 AM
Nice Stack!!!

Mike


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 16, 2014, 03:15 AM
That's the spirit  :)

What to call a group of three?
Obviously that is a "ward":D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: mr wojtas on May 16, 2014, 05:32 AM
I'd like to see you do a  axel with that beatiful stack :D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 16, 2014, 08:03 PM
With appropriate setup and slack, axels should be easy enough.  Now flic-flacs, that's hard  :D

I'd like to see you do a  axel with that beatiful stack :D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 19, 2014, 09:00 PM
Am now using P200 ULE and P300 LLE.  Had Lil Psycho up at Grand Haven both days.  Steady winds in lower 20s on Sunday.  Kite was solid, quiet, zippy, and precise even on short 65' lines. Tight clean spins and corners. Have never seen anything axel so fast.  Much fun.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 22, 2014, 08:52 AM
Added stoppers and 10gm tail weight.  Have been flying with weights for last several weeks, no issues. Wonder how many wraps you can get in one roll up motion?  8) 

Note to Ian:  Measured the Superfly (also higher AR) stopper location and found it to be @2/5 of the leading edge - imagine that!  :)

May need a 7 1/2' version of this kite for those sane wind days  :P



Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DMF on May 22, 2014, 11:45 AM
Steve


You got to get a pic of those in the air, they look great.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: Tmadz on May 22, 2014, 05:01 PM
Steve


You got to get a pic of those in the air, they look great.
+1


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on May 23, 2014, 03:26 AM
Thanks!  Will have to get some more pics.  Static shots are easy of course.  Often will fly the kite with a handle (RB like) in one hand and camera in the other. Can get decent shots with a little zoom and the kite at the edge of the window. Have not tried that with stacks and need more of a side angle anyway to better show the kites.  Will get some help...

You got to get a pic of those in the air, they look great.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 22, 2014, 04:53 PM
Finally took the "ward" out for some air and sun today. Stack flies well in normal winds, no oversteer with new bridle, gives away axels, Flic Flacs still need work  ::) Pulls correspondingly harder than single, a little slower paced, overall nice. 

Should start making videos to show how well these fly.  Any video making tutorials out there?


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-BkoN-RcpCbI/U86voTtwFaI/AAAAAAAADc8/VuBZrHs9Bmk/s640/IMG_20140722_120345375.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ecihaV5FhbPhI_0oq6sfCNMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

The Psycho is solidly in the A bag now and makes a fun mid to higher wind trick kite.  Am not done with this project and want to see how low (wind speed) the design can fly.  The shades of things to come, flo pink:


(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PCn1mgIbTPs/U87zQumH62I/AAAAAAAADdU/5iU0QE9oreM/s400/IMG_20140722_190030196.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/n4xv7AVhbzi7nYODk9a9T9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-dsqJenMjORM/U8-yBYuJvJI/AAAAAAAADeE/B8XN_vKjLVQ/s400/IMG_20140723_081859941.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QIG7qd2QBZMvi4d3bdh3c9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: photogbill on July 23, 2014, 02:30 PM
Nic e job Steve, That hot pink, black and white one should look great in the sky when finished!


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 23, 2014, 09:05 PM
I thought it might be bright but after seeing what the teams wear at the local soccer fields I think the pink will blend right in  ::)

The Psycho has been a good project rediscovering an older classic and now have a nice high wind trickster. Quite a fun little kite.
 
Jury is still out on the Stranger.  The P200 LEs seem almost spindly in a kite that big and have not spent much time with it.

Nic e job Steve, That hot pink, black and white one should look great in the sky when finished!


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on July 23, 2014, 10:18 PM
I always thought a stranger would make an interesting sul project.
Love the psychos


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 24, 2014, 03:39 AM
I think Allen mentioned that also.  May take a different direction with the Stranger and try the Nitro lites.

With 10 grams tail weight the Psycho rolls up quickly and easily.  The only thing that kite is missing is a deep turtle but I shouldn't expect a kite to lay on its back for long in 15+ winds  :D

I always thought a stranger would make an interesting sul project.
Love the psychos


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 26, 2014, 08:16 PM
Probably aren't too many of these out there, a modded Psycho UL in pink.  8) I built this on a whim after flying the Psycho stack which does well in 8+ and wondered how low a lighter Psycho would fly.  The P200/P300/5PT std weighs 8.5 oz rtf while the P90/P100/3PT UL comes in at 6.4 oz rtf.  2 oz is a lot for kite this size so it should be interesting.  Starting with 10gr tail weight as in the std.  To recap, the changes include:

- Icarex sail
- Skyshark frame
- Leech line
- 1" longer keel
- Tail weight
- yo-yo stoppers
- R-sky T
- Radically sane bridle :)

I like the pink much better than I thought I might.


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-OoP7g5ex2zI/U9Rn7WsPj0I/AAAAAAAADfY/xLK_Txn7Akg/s640/IMG_20140726_223808225_HDR.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ybWgAH8pPNfXoiWzNUfTudMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: photogbill on July 26, 2014, 08:58 PM
Looks great Steve!


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: coogee on July 27, 2014, 03:25 AM
Very nice I like the pink it looks good with the black and white. Should be an interesting fly, a high wind kite with a light wind frame. I reckon it could be a bit of fun...

Mike


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DMF on July 27, 2014, 03:41 AM
You really have a great looking design!  Hows your video making research coming? ;)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 27, 2014, 12:26 PM
Tied the bridle this morning, finished the bag, and headed out to find a field and some wind.


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-f3WGB9Gc71E/U9VJuLR_2fI/AAAAAAAADf0/f81vSxw9dGA/s640/IMG_20140727_122707823.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/QxrV43Kgm5M-nC7UTmwQCtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

First we need to redefine terms.  The P200/P300/5PT is a high wind Psycho good from 8 mph to who knows.  The P90/P100/3PT is the Std Psycho as it flies in the same winds as the Exile Std. I would not be surprised if it has a higher usable max wind range than the Exile making this Psycho one of the highest wind rated UL framed kite out there. Ha!

Seriously this one flies just like a lighter version of the kite, fully capable, a little more float, flies in a little lower winds, and has a lighter feel.  Am not sure a true UL is possible with this design nor do I really see the point.  I will keep it in the A bag with the HW Psycho and fly it in sane winds when I need a change of pace from the Exile fleet.

Speaking of the Exile project, several have asked and there is more to report on that front.

Like many kites, the Psycho was retired before its time.  With a little updating there is lots of life left in that design. 

Coogee, most every color looks good with black and white.  :)

Dana, on the video front I'm bummed gopro does not make a brim mount for the Tilley :(  ???  May have to rig something up...


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: Allen Carter on July 27, 2014, 12:34 PM
I always thought a stranger would make an interesting sul project.
Love the psychos

Flexi made a Stranger with a Poly sail and Skyshark 5P frame. Certainly lighter than the stock nylon 6mm pulltrude version but much stiffer. More a "pro" version than a UL but must have had a better bottom end. I've never found one, but would like to. I've read mixed reviews. Some really hated the stiffer frame.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: skb on July 27, 2014, 01:00 PM
I had the Stranger UL, liked it better than the Standard.
The Sky Shark frame was a lot less noodley than the stock one and the Icarex sail didn't get baggy and heavy in our damp Fall/Winter weather.

Think it went to rod247.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 27, 2014, 05:22 PM
"Seriously this one flies just like a lighter version of the Psycho, fully capable, a little more float, flies in a little lower winds, and has a lighter feel.  Am not sure a true UL is possible with this design nor do I really see the point."

To clarify the above statement, I'm confident that adding another standoff to each side widening and flattening the tunnel TE profile would improve the low wind abilities of the Psycho and I may do just that.  Of course at some point it's no longer a Psycho but something a bit different.

I had particular goals in mind with the Psycho and Exile projects.  No such goal with the Stranger, just wanted to experience the kite and go from there.  At this time I have no immediate plans for the Stranger.  If someone really wanted to take on the reframe project, I could make the sail available and use the existing P200 frame in another project.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: skb on July 27, 2014, 06:54 PM
^PM sent


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 27, 2014, 07:08 PM
Replied  :)

^PM sent


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on July 27, 2014, 08:39 PM
Stranger sail spoken for.  Pink Psycho TE updated and ready to test two standoffs per side. 

"Seriously this one flies just like a lighter version of the Psycho, fully capable, a little more float, flies in a little lower winds, and has a lighter feel.  Am not sure a true UL is possible with this design nor do I really see the point."

To clarify the above statement, I'm confident that adding another standoff to each side widening and flattening the tunnel TE profile would improve the low wind abilities of the Psycho and I may do just that.  Of course at some point it's no longer a Psycho but something a bit different.

I had particular goals in mind with the Psycho and Exile projects.  No such goal with the Stranger, just wanted to experience the kite and go from there.  At this time I have no immediate plans for the Stranger.  If someone really wanted to take on the reframe project, I could make the sail available and use the existing P200 frame in another project.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on July 27, 2014, 08:58 PM
I had the Stranger UL, liked it better than the Standard.
The Sky Shark frame was a lot less noodley than the stock one and the Icarex sail didn't get baggy and heavy in our damp Fall/Winter weather.

Think it went to rod247.

Hmmm now i want one


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on October 05, 2014, 04:56 AM
An end of year update:

The "UL" Psycho does indeed fly in lighter winds but it lacks the mass to be tossed around like the standard and is not as much fun, so that project has been retired.

I'd rather fly a more 'proper' kite in lighter winds. Still enjoy the std Psycho when the winds pick up.

Thanks,
Steve


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: lilabner on November 15, 2014, 06:27 AM
 8) OHHHHH SUCH GOOD STUFF  8)
This tread makes my heart go piter-pater  :P
Steve talked me through the re-framing of my 1st Psycho back in the early 2000's, P200's.
I still fly this high winder 2 or 3 times a year.

SKB, speaking of Rod247, he has to have the largest Psycho collection in the world  :D
If I remember correctly?? He won an all white Psycho on one of Steve's Holiday Actions years ago. I was so jealous  :'(
I am still sooooo JEALOUS of Rod247  :D  ;)     


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: 619er on November 15, 2014, 06:11 PM
years ago iirc there was a guy on this forum named Eli that some extensive psycho tweaking.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on November 15, 2014, 06:25 PM
Yes indeed.  Over 10 years ago now.  Elli tied a turbo bridle and I went 3-point.  There was also the "Burnout" based on the Psycho - German I believe.

It would not take that much modification to make the Psycho a more 'modern' trickster.  Pretty fun as it is though with the few mods I did.

Psycho Therapy
elli
USA
1249 Posts
Posted - June 08 2004 :  12:58:43 AM


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on November 26, 2014, 11:50 AM
Last week a long time fellow Psycho flying friend long time fellow kiting friend who also likes the Psycho sent a note inquiring about the availability of Lil Red.  Apparently he has beaten the snot out of his kites and is looking for a new Psycho.  I responded that I've grown quite attached to Lighthouse Red and intend to keep her.  I did suggest that I still had the templates and could make another sail.  An email conversation resulted in this:


(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-K4n7nnUynFo/VHX3Axs1YEI/AAAAAAAAEZ8/dIHpJZLhLEo/s640/IMG_20141126_072950782.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/98_ZnYRscN3WU01KcrICXtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

I rather like it!  8)  This will be the first Psycho "Pro" to leave my workshop. If you happen to see this kite flying off the back of a Harley with the driver/pilot in black leather,  just remember that pink looks awesome on a black kite.  ;D

I sent a note to the Flexifoil folks asking if they wanted to start up this kite again.  Have not heard back yet but am sure the Psycho is on the agenda for the next board meeting.

If anyone knows how to get word to Andy Preston, I'd love for him to see this thread and to know his kites are still generating interest.

If you want to know where the "Mojo with attitude" got the 'tude, look no further.  For those that think a Psycho with a 'sane' bridle is no longer a Psycho, you have not flown one with tail weights and stoppers  :o :D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: skb on November 26, 2014, 11:54 AM
please add my name for the Psycho Pro waiting list.  ;D


Title: Re:
Post by: coop on November 26, 2014, 01:52 PM
Damn, yet another kite by Stapp I want.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on November 26, 2014, 02:40 PM
Also add me to the list 8)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: indigo_wolf on November 26, 2014, 03:15 PM
That's dead sexy.   ???  ???

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on November 29, 2014, 07:35 PM
In addition to the Enigma variations and my new to me PBSK VP, I've been tinkering with the Psycho bridle this weekend.  The measurements have NOT changed but the bridle legs been have reconfigured to facilitate adjustments. 

As you compare the factory bridle and mine, there are two major differences:

- Tapp bridle has overall 3" shorter legs which moves the towpoint closer to the kite for easier pitching. Read more trick friendly.
- Tapp bridle moves towpoint outward to remove oversteer. Read less crazy.
 
       Factory    Tapp

Uphaul:    18.75      15.0"
Outhaul:   21.25      15.0"
Inhaul:     18.75      20.0"
 
Total        58.75       50.0

I much prefer the Psycho with the new bridle.  The new to be owner requested both bridles and I had them both tied and ready to ship.  Then I thought why?  All one has to do is move the TP in by shortening the inhaul and lengthening the outhaul to increase oversteer as desired.

Problem is I usually make the inhaul and uphaul with one piece of bridle line larksheaded around the outhaul.  The uphaul is independently adjustable with an adjustment pigtail and slider knot.  While this arrangement is great for fine tuning, large changes at the towpoint larkshead will affect the Inhaul AND Uphaul.  This is a royal pain for making large oversteer adjustments as you constantly have to adjust the Uphaul to compensate.

Well if you make the Inhaul and Outhaul one piece instead then adjustments at the towpoint larkshead will move the towpoint along the lower spreader which is what you want.  This is easy to do. The inhauls and outhauls are now a single piece of bridle line larkheaded around an adjustable uphaul.  This is MUCH easier to isolate the horizontal and vertical TP dimensions and how I will ship the kite and tie any future bridles.

Read this while looking at a kite with a 3 point bridle and it will make more sense.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on November 29, 2014, 07:49 PM
Some of you have asked about my building more of these and making the kite available.  I have not intended to build this kite for market as such.  I am a new builder (getting better all the time) and the Psycho is not my design.  Certainly my version has better materials, frame, and modern adjustable and trick features which add to the kite's utility. Plus I can do custom colors so yours would be, well yours.

The demand for these won't be big so If you would like to pursue a Psycho, send my a PM and we can talk.  Please realize a custom built kite can't be cheap.  The materials alone cost as much as the original Flexifoil retail version. Am not looking to make money with kites, rather do it as a serious hobby and to see others appreciate the kites.  Skilled labor is worth something, though a career at Walmart would be more profitable.  :D

Thanks,
Steve


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: JimB on November 29, 2014, 10:37 PM
The Psycho is still one of the best looking kites IMO.

There's just something about it.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: kite_pilot on November 29, 2014, 11:30 PM
what a nice sleek looking kite!
that nice short tail and long sleek looking narrow wings oh so nice!
besides steve remaking this kite is it made for sale else where on the market ?
cheers
glen


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: indigo_wolf on November 30, 2014, 04:54 AM
what a nice sleek looking kite!
that nice short tail and long sleek looking narrow wings oh so nice!
besides steve remaking this kite is it made for sale else where on the market ?
cheers
glen

Discontinued years ago.... some still pop up for sale on the secondary market.

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: kite_pilot on November 30, 2014, 05:33 PM
what a nice sleek looking kite!
that nice short tail and long sleek looking narrow wings oh so nice!
besides steve remaking this kite is it made for sale else where on the market ?
cheers
glen

Discontinued years ago.... some still pop up for sale on the secondary market.

ATB,
Sam
oh so sad!
why is it all the nice looking built kites seem to get discontinued ? :'(


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on November 30, 2014, 06:10 PM
Well ....  The high aspect kites died off in popularity as they are unable to do a lot of the current tricks that are now commonplace.
Psycho
Stranger
AzizA
Area 51 and the like....different way of flying..... Much faster kites with smaller area skins.....start flying in higher winds because of that too......


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on November 30, 2014, 06:21 PM
Would like to get one of these in the hands of someone who can make her sing and show us how it's done.  I saw Devin whack out a Comete on Lil'Red at Grand Haven last year in some pretty big winds. Dang that boy is good.  8)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on December 04, 2014, 04:59 PM
I have now been blessed with two requests to build this kite and both have insisted on paying a boutique price; independently exactly the same amount. I tried to talk them down to no avail. So much for my persuasive abilities.

Since none of this would be possible without the forum, 10% of any proceeds above material costs will go to support the forum.  Thank you Steve Hall.

Here is the next kite kit received from K&FT.  Trusty Pfaff stands ready in the background.  Just add thread and glue.  Some assembly required.


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Jg5uuRhaDBc/VIEBSlQD4QI/AAAAAAAAEi8/UbCAm2laMfc/s640/IMG_20141203_152938581.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/nrO4P9l7IUUXcvJorBqwYtMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

I just hit 500 posts, another milestone.


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: DD on December 04, 2014, 06:41 PM
1pc le? Rollbars or stoppers?


Title: Re: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on December 04, 2014, 06:47 PM
P2x upper, P3x lower, P2x spine, 5PT spreaders.  Grommet stoppers, adjustable tail weights, reinforced TE, adjustable bridle.

Same materials, build, and adjustable features as Enigma packaged up to look like a Psycho ;)

Roll bars could be done but trend seems to be back to stoppers. Superfly for example also uses grommet profile stoppers. 

1pc le? Rollbars or stoppers?


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on December 19, 2014, 07:14 PM
So Lil Red has twin cousins she neglected to tell me about  >:(  They just stopped by for the holidays.  ::)


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-QCpGMNBrSPw/VJTmgrxcsfI/AAAAAAAAE5Y/E2QDTIGj4nc/s640/IMG_20141219_211827117_HDR.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MIIVuZlzHuUb9X0UDbMLI9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)

One is just passing through on the way to the west coast and the other plans to hang out for a while.  I suppose there's room ...   :-\


(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-irZlUiXSSuQ/VJTmhQuXfGI/AAAAAAAAE5g/A1qtGbaTbPs/s640/IMG_20141219_212622970_HDR.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/on9vzrA55JQ8qLv61IlQv9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: skb on December 19, 2014, 09:05 PM
Oooooh, team fly Psychos!  ;D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: JimB on December 19, 2014, 10:31 PM
I'm in.


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: chilese on December 19, 2014, 10:50 PM
Those look razor sharp.  8)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on December 20, 2014, 04:40 AM
Didn't Prism sponsor "Team Micron" for big wind performances back in the day?  ;)  Team flyers all seemed to have a nervous twitch IIRC   ???

Would be fun to reform Team Micron and Team Psycho for a festival fly off when the winds are over 20 mph  8)

Oooooh, team fly Psychos!  ;D


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on December 20, 2014, 04:51 AM
Oooooh, team fly Psychos!  ;D
I remember trying that once.... It was hideous..... And we never spoke of it again......

I will stick to team flying single line kites ;)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: stapp59 on December 20, 2014, 09:47 AM
May have more success with a sane bridle.  8) Just move the TP out a few inches ;)  Would still need fast reflexes as Lil Psycho is pretty zippy in big winds.

Oooooh, team fly Psychos!  ;D
I remember trying that once.... It was hideous..... And we never spoke of it again......

I will stick to team flying single line kites ;)


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: thief on December 20, 2014, 12:18 PM
Out was actually more of a comment on my flying ability ;)


Title: Like In door bedroom kite got to move fast
Post by: tempest on December 20, 2014, 04:55 PM
May have more success with a sane bridle.  8) Just move the TP out a few inches ;)  Would still need fast reflexes as Lil Psycho is pretty zippy in big winds.

Oooooh, team fly Psychos!  ;D
I remember trying that once.... It was hideous..... And we never spoke of it again......

I will stick to team flying single line kites ;)
Why would you put a weight on a psycho????????

The stranger came in icarex and nylon....... Did fine


Title: Re: Psycho revisited
Post by: skb on December 20, 2014, 05:43 PM
^tempest, you OK?
most of your recent posts just seem to be quotes of previous posts  :-\