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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: SkyRags on March 09, 2014, 09:59 PM



Title: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 09, 2014, 09:59 PM
I fly the Superfly mostly as my STD and my Talon UL when it drops to about 8km

But I need a good kite to fly under 6km

I have my eye on one type...but what does everyone else reccomend?

Preferably something other than a SF UL or another Talon

I should also mention I would like a decent range of tricks to be able to be performed on it


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: tpatter on March 09, 2014, 11:01 PM
My 2 favorites are the ATM and Transformer SULs.  Super tricky SULs which would fit in nicely as with what you are used to flying.

Folks also seem to be liking the SF UL.

Good luck


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 10, 2014, 11:09 AM
My 2 favorites are the ATM and Transformer SULs.  Super tricky SULs which would fit in nicely as with what you are used to flying.

Folks also seem to be liking the SF UL.

Good luck

How low can they go? :)


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: lylenc on March 10, 2014, 12:13 PM
How low can they go? They can lawn dart 2" in loose sand.  :-[ (been there, done that)

In general, you can fly SULs in zero wind if you want to work at it. It takes about 1/2 to 1 mph to fly them without a lot of foot work and do axel type moves. By 2 mph fades, backspins, and combos like Jacobs ladder can be done without a lot of work. Finesse skills lower your effective wind range - step back and pull when flying up and in center of window, step forward and push when flying down and at edge of window.

SULs start to get over-powered around 4 or 5 mph. That's time to pull out a UL, unless the wind is variable and it goes back down towards zero frequently.

Hope that helps.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 10, 2014, 12:41 PM
How low can they go? They can lawn dart 2" in loose sand.  :-[ (been there, done that)

In general, you can fly SULs in zero wind if you want to work at it. It takes about 1/2 to 1 mph to fly them without a lot of foot work and do axel type moves. By 2 mph fades, backspins, and combos like Jacobs ladder can be done without a lot of work. Finesse skills lower your effective wind range - step back and pull when flying up and in center of window, step forward and push when flying down and at edge of window.

SULs start to get over-powered around 4 or 5 mph. That's time to pull out a UL, unless the wind is variable and it goes back down towards zero frequently.

Hope that helps.

It does thanks :) I will add an ATM SUL to my shopping list - plus the price for a brand new one is very good compared to other high spec SUL's out there...


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: lylenc on March 10, 2014, 06:05 PM
I am considering an ATM SUL, too. The main thing holding me back is the wind range 3-16 mph. In my opinion that's a UL range rather than a SUL range 1-8 mph.

A review I read by Tom Patterson says it has all the tricks I want, except for a stable fade without much tending. For now, I'm waiting to see the second generation tweaks, since I have other SUL and UL options in the bag to cover those wind ranges, including Sea Devils.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: RobB on March 10, 2014, 06:17 PM
I haven't flown the Transformer or ATM, but I will say that my Sea Devil SUL (new generation) is an amazing trick based light wind kite. It out-performs my Fearless SUL when the winds get around 1mph. Worth a look...

(http://ferob.com/kites/P1090144.jpg)



Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: trigger on March 10, 2014, 06:38 PM
I love my ATM UL. I havent tried the SUL but mine goes to about 3mph and holds steady in 12ish just fine.  Lam really suggests the SUL for inland. I am no pro, but i am very pleased at how well it tracks too!   

My Ocius SUL will take off in a birds sneeze from 2 blocks away! Tricking is very different though because there is no mass to it so you PERSUADE it a bit more.  It is also very stable in 8ish+ and tracks well. y want to check out the Aura too.

good luck


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 10, 2014, 07:27 PM
It seems there are a LOT of SULs that fly only 3mph at their lowest...

Which is about 6km I guess...

Sounds like the Sea Devil can get lower though and are there any others that can hit a lower range and still trick well? Pro-Dancer I guess too


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: chilese on March 10, 2014, 07:44 PM
Skyrags,

In all honestly, unless you get down to the very untricky SULs (ProDancer SUL), most sport kites will require smooth winds, foot motion, noticeable arm waving and 50# lines to fly below 3 mph.

3 mph is about 4.5 ft/ sec, a moderately quick walk is about 3 mph. Next time you are walking near that speed, see how much apparent wind you feel on your face. It is not much.

Remember tricks are about knocking the pressure off the sail, which is the very opposite of what an SUL needs to do to fly in such low winds.

People who have kites which fly from the wind of a bird sneeze at 2 blocks away are probably pretty good fliers or perhaps prone to stretching the truth a bit.  :)


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 10, 2014, 11:40 PM
Skyrags,

In all honestly, unless you get down to the very untricky SULs (ProDancer SUL), most sport kites will require smooth winds, foot motion, noticeable arm waving and 50# lines to fly below 3 mph.

3 mph is about 4.5 ft/ sec, a moderately quick walk is about 3 mph. Next time you are walking near that speed, see how much apparent wind you feel on your face. It is not much.

Remember tricks are about knocking the pressure off the sail, which is the very opposite of what an SUL needs to do to fly in such low winds.

People who have kites which fly from the wind of a bird sneeze at 2 blocks away are probably pretty good fliers or perhaps prone to stretching the truth a bit.  :)

I'll definitely take your advice there John - I did kinda think the difference between a SUL and a UL would be degrees...

It's good to hear realistic opinions on what's actually achieveable :)

I think I'm really just after a kite that flies just lower than my Talon UL

Today I was trying to fly it in about 3-5km of wind and had to REALLY work it to axel and 540

I'm told that the Talon UL isn't a true UL - more of a light STD - and even the Deep Space UL flies lower - so yeah, it gets a little confusing to an intermediate pilot like myself :)


Title: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SparkieRob on March 11, 2014, 02:42 AM
Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: ezme6 on March 11, 2014, 09:35 AM
I have a Transformer SSUL, in mint condition for sale

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201739255822348&set=pcb.459041490885846&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201739255822348&set=pcb.459041490885846&type=1&theater)


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 11, 2014, 11:57 AM
I have a Transformer SSUL, in mint condition for sale

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201739255822348&set=pcb.459041490885846&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10201739255822348&set=pcb.459041490885846&type=1&theater)


Yeah I saw that....but um, is the price correct on that?


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: harveystubbs on March 11, 2014, 12:06 PM
Skyrags,

In all honestly, unless you get down to the very untricky SULs (ProDancer SUL), most sport kites will require smooth winds, foot motion, noticeable arm waving and 50# lines to fly below 3 mph.

3 mph is about 4.5 ft/ sec, a moderately quick walk is about 3 mph. Next time you are walking near that speed, see how much apparent wind you feel on your face. It is not much.

Remember tricks are about knocking the pressure off the sail, which is the very opposite of what an SUL needs to do to fly in such low winds.

People who have kites which fly from the wind of a bird sneeze at 2 blocks away are probably pretty good fliers or perhaps prone to stretching the truth a bit.  :)

I'll definitely take your advice there John - I did kinda think the difference between a SUL and a UL would be degrees...

It's good to hear realistic opinions on what's actually achieveable :)

I think I'm really just after a kite that flies just lower than my Talon UL

Today I was trying to fly it in about 3-5km of wind and had to REALLY work it to axel and 540

I'm told that the Talon UL isn't a true UL - more of a light STD - and even the Deep Space UL flies lower - so yeah, it gets a little confusing to an intermediate pilot like myself :)

That's nonsense, the talon is a true ul it's just that the ds ul is it's most natural comparison and that flies nearly like an sul.

You need to decide whether you want a true no wind kite or something that is a touch more weighty that has a higher aspect ratio and more trickable. You also can't break the laws of physics and you will need to move a bit.



Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 11, 2014, 12:48 PM
Skyrags,

In all honestly, unless you get down to the very untricky SULs (ProDancer SUL), most sport kites will require smooth winds, foot motion, noticeable arm waving and 50# lines to fly below 3 mph.

3 mph is about 4.5 ft/ sec, a moderately quick walk is about 3 mph. Next time you are walking near that speed, see how much apparent wind you feel on your face. It is not much.

Remember tricks are about knocking the pressure off the sail, which is the very opposite of what an SUL needs to do to fly in such low winds.

People who have kites which fly from the wind of a bird sneeze at 2 blocks away are probably pretty good fliers or perhaps prone to stretching the truth a bit.  :)

I'll definitely take your advice there John - I did kinda think the difference between a SUL and a UL would be degrees...

It's good to hear realistic opinions on what's actually achieveable :)

I think I'm really just after a kite that flies just lower than my Talon UL

Today I was trying to fly it in about 3-5km of wind and had to REALLY work it to axel and 540

I'm told that the Talon UL isn't a true UL - more of a light STD - and even the Deep Space UL flies lower - so yeah, it gets a little confusing to an intermediate pilot like myself :)

That's nonsense, the talon is a true ul it's just that the ds ul is it's most natural comparison and that flies nearly like an sul.

You need to decide whether you want a true no wind kite or something that is a touch more weighty that has a higher aspect ratio and more trickable. You also can't break the laws of physics and you will need to move a bit.



Moving is not an issue - I walk/run with the Talon to execute tricks so as long as I can keep the kite in the air on very light winds I'm happy

The Talon flies (when I'm walking quickly) at 6-7km at its lowest point - ill do 360's in this wind range


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: trigger on March 11, 2014, 08:24 PM
Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   ;D


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 11, 2014, 09:21 PM
Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   ;D

Oh man...

This is just getting difficult haha


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: damp_weather on March 11, 2014, 09:45 PM
Well, lets say I am NOT a good pilot and have flown in 0 wind with MUCH less work than any other kite. I have never been able to 360 another kite(probably because my technique sucks) but have done them easily with the Ocius SUL.   Maybe it was a really big bird 1 block away... either way I am VERY IMPRESSED with its low wind ability!   fly's as low as a 4D with actual tracking and persuaded tricks   ;D
+1    (except I've never tried a 4D - I'm comparing with a Benson Inner Space, and it took lots of hours in the air one summer before the Ocius's sail had softened enough to be able to do this.  ...And we have streets rather than blocks here in suburban England)


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: dragonfish on March 11, 2014, 10:58 PM
Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one. 


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SparkieRob on March 12, 2014, 02:03 AM
Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one.

The Scratch Bunnies are going to Burek (don't shoot me if I spelt it poorly but it's a French kite festival?) this year so I'm hoping Carl is going to be part of it.

My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: KaoS on March 12, 2014, 02:58 AM

My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.

When quoting a wind range for my sport kites I try to be as accurate as possible, so I measure wind speed with a meter.    One of my pet hates is people spouting guesstimate wind speeds ("...here's a video of me flying a stack in 35 knot winds..." but there's no sand being lifted off the beach and they aren't even leaning back!)

Admittedly, the only flying area I have regular access to is my local beach.  Most days there is a smooth, steady on shore breeze, and this makes a big difference to how easy it is to a. measure the wind speed accurately and b. fly a kite at the bottom end.  At 2km/hr there are ripples on the water and the direction of the wind is apparent on the skin. I'll be walking back to get the kite to climb, and walking forward to "get more beach" while gliding the kite away.

If the wind speed drops and the water surface goes glassy, I can do 360's with the Temptation UL ... but I run out of puff pretty quickly at my age :-)


** EDIT**  ...it's "Berck"   ;D


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: harveystubbs on March 12, 2014, 03:58 AM

My Temptation UL is rated 2-8km/h which I'm gathering is quite low for a UL.

When quoting a wind range for my sport kites I try to be as accurate as possible, so I measure wind speed with a meter.    One of my pet hates is people spouting guesstimate wind speeds ("...here's a video of me flying a stack in 35 knot winds..." but there's no sand being lifted off the beach and they aren't even leaning back!)

Admittedly, the only flying area I have regular access to is my local beach.  Most days there is a smooth, steady on shore breeze, and this makes a big difference to how easy it is to a. measure the wind speed accurately and b. fly a kite at the bottom end.  At 2km/hr there are ripples on the water and the direction of the wind is apparent on the skin. I'll be walking back to get the kite to climb, and walking forward to "get more beach" while gliding the kite away.

If the wind speed drops and the water surface goes glassy, I can do 360's with the Temptation UL ... but I run out of puff pretty quickly at my age :-)


** EDIT**  ...it's "Berck"   ;D

Nicely put ..... people talk a lot of balls when it comes to wind speed but I like your description  8)


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: Gamelord on March 12, 2014, 07:57 PM
Can't add much to what has already been said.  My go to kites when the wind is low is my Widow Maker UL (can fly down to 2-3 mph and still trick with foot movement and my Ocius SUL - basically indoor with a lot of foot movement, very little movement when the wind gets around 1mph and still tricky.  As stated already, the SUL and UL do not trick the same as the standard.  Because of the major loss of mass, the SUL needs a lot of patience and coaxing to trick.  The UL not as much but more than a normal standard does.

I highly suggest either one of these for the ultimate in light wind flying while still able to do nearly all the tricks.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: Bob D on March 13, 2014, 08:09 AM
Interesting topic. I have a Nirvana SUL that I can't do much with considering the low mass. Is it me or do the other SULs with similar mass require the same amount of skill to coax tricks? I might definitely go for something that I could trick better but I'm thinking that low mass is low mass and it's a matter of skill, experience, and ability to move and put air into the sail. (I don't fly the Nirvana SUL too much because if the leaves are barely moving on the trees there isn't anything closer to the ground that will keep the kite in the air. Maybe I should look at something like the Prism Zero G...) Thoughts? Suggestions? Is the ATM as wonderful as everyone suggests?


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: harveystubbs on March 13, 2014, 09:12 AM
Where is the ATM made? I heard it is made outside the USA?


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 14, 2014, 12:56 AM
Well so far the list INCLUDES (But not limited to)

Veyron SUL
VEGA/VITAL SUL


Short list I know...but these seem ideal


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: tpatter on March 14, 2014, 08:04 AM
I would consider HUGO or BILL as well.   

HUGO certainly goes well into UL territory and just feels magical on the lines.   I've also flown it beside SULs with some work - amazing sail pressure.   BILL all the above, but just feels much lighter on the lines and goes lower with far less effort.   


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: damp_weather on March 15, 2014, 02:03 PM
....Nicely put ..... people talk a lot of balls when it comes to wind speed but I like your description  8)
Speaking for myself, I don't really believe that birds clearing nasal irritation help an Ocius SUL to fly - that's 'poetic license' to cover up for routinely carrying and often using a wind meter and for testing very low wind speeds by dropping leaves and blades of grass and looking for a bias in the direction they fall in. 
For example last Wednesday, the grass repeatedly fell vertically downwards from the hand held stretched out above the head.  From that I am reasonably confident that for at least the first eight feet above the ground the air was still.

However, at my local flying site, it is common for the air at greater heights to be moving faster.  We know this subjectively from the way the kite flies and objectively once from observing a small hot air balloon rise up and travel known distances in measured times.  From the hot air balloon experiment many months ago, the average wind speed at ~100 feet was between 4 and 6mph, while the wind meter at ~8 feet would report 2 to 2 1/2 mph.
Last Wednesday, there may not have been any measurable wind at human head and outstretched arm height.  But from trying a 360 and finding that very fast walking was required for part of the rotation, one can guesstimate that there could have been 2 to 3mph wind at 20 to 30 feet.

Perhaps the best measure isn't a wind meter, unless one also has a very long pole to mount it on and a means to read it from below, but from comparing kites side by side.  From those tests, I can say that a broken-in Ocius SUL flies as low and with as little flyer effort as a Benson Inner Space. - Still a subjective assessment, but the best I can do with the equipment at hand. 


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: damp_weather on March 15, 2014, 02:31 PM
Thanks for this thread, lots of useful info.  I am also trying to decide which UL/SUL to get.  I guess where I differ from the OP is that in addition to learning tricks, I am also interested in competition.  And I don't yet have a UL. 

Just throwing this one in there.

Kite Related Design's FURY SUL
0-12mph. 250cm wingspan.
240gram kite: framed in 2P/3PT/2PX
230gram kite: framed in Aerostuff Zen/P2X

Team kite of the Scratch Bunnies and the child of Carl Robertshaw. The UL has a range of 3-12mph. This is one of my most desirable kites, even above Revs! Just something about it. Pricey though. But custom colours and an award winning pedigree. Not everyone's cup of tea but I hope to be good enough to "earn" one.

Edit: Literally in the last 10 minutes I found out that KRD is no longer! Pretty bummed at that. Apparently Carl was to be still producing the Fury but not very sure.

Oh no, that's a bummer.  My local team, AirZone, also flies Furys.  I've also noticed that almost half the teams at the 2012 World Sport Kite Championships flew Furys.  Big kites.  I too hope someday I get to fly one. 
I hope you get the chance to fly one too. Furies are very precise for precision and ballet.  But they aren't to everyone's taste.  A Fury 0.85 AS UL was the first high quality kite we bought, and we struggled with it.  Partly because of its strong pull in higher winds, and partly because it couldn't cope with the frequent low wind speeds we have.  It was because of the challenge we had with this kite that we looked further afield for pairs ballet kites, and settled on Prism Quantum Pros.
When we were looking, the Fury SUL hadn't come out.  I saw that new kite being flown at Swindon kite festival ~2009 or 2010 by the local team.  My wind meter was showing 2 to 2 1/2 mph, yet they had had to walk backwards and were now right at the barrier tape on windward side of the field, and having to land the kites.  So the Fury SUL wasn't a low wind panacea.

If you want to fly precision and ballet competition in very low winds, how about one of the Air Dynamics T5 SULs?  No, I haven't flown a T5, but last year I spent half a day flying some other T series kites, and was very impressed with their control and precision, while they didn't pull like a truck when the wind got up.  The gentle turns routinely seen in the team displays at UK festivals must have been a deliberate choice, rather than the turns had to be that slow and wide.
Air Dynamics even does a Cuban (Cuben fabric) version of the SUL.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: damp_weather on March 15, 2014, 03:41 PM
Interesting topic. I have a Nirvana SUL that I can't do much with considering the low mass.
That's interesting.  It was seeing videos of Nirvana SULs flying and tricking that first put me on to the possibilties for tricking in hardly any wind.  In particular there is R-Sky's video of the Nirvana SUL tricking (mostly back-spinning) in an Alpine scene, and more impressively: the "a morning in Venice" video showing the NSE WW being tricked by Samuel Roger and Laura Mastromaura in a misty Venice.  I can't tell the wind speed for the Venice video, but assume it must be very low as it is misty.  It was this that got me hankering after an NSE WW, but I never got to try one.  Then the Ocius SUL came along, which is a kite that promises to do the sorts of low wind flying shown in the Venice video.
Quote
Is it me or do the other SULs with similar mass require the same amount of skill to coax tricks? I might definitely go for something that I could trick better but I'm thinking that low mass is low mass and it's a matter of skill, experience, and ability to move and put air into the sail. (I don't fly the Nirvana SUL too much because if the leaves are barely moving on the trees there isn't anything closer to the ground that will keep the kite in the air. Maybe I should look at something like the Prism Zero G...) Thoughts? Suggestions? Is the ATM as wonderful as everyone suggests?
(Have no personal experience of the ATM or Zero G.)
Regarding the mass of dual line SULs, I doubt that is the primary issue for tricks.  I think it is more a matter of sail shape.  Traditionally, zero wind dual line kites have had fairly low aspect ratio and flat sails.  (Aspect ratio roughly means the ratio of width squared to the sail area)  The relatively low aspect ratio means that there is more sail area for the same spar weight, and therefore more sail to catch the air for the kite's mass.  The flat sail helps get more lift from the sail.  Examples include the ProDancer SUL and the Benson Inner Space. 
As an experiment, try throwing a dual line kite around without having flying lines attached.  Compared to a more modern high aspect ratio The Inner Space isn't very pitchy.  But if you pull a modern kite like an Ocius SUL or perhaps your Nirvana through the air by the tow points and then let go, I expect that it will flip nose backwards much more willingly than the PD SUL or Inner Space.  In other words, I think it is the sail shape that determines how the kite will trick, because it determines how the kite moves as it cuts through the air.

...One of the big mistakes I made as a new beginner was to believe that in order to go from a flare to a fade, one pulled the nose towards yourself, so that it went underneath the tail, with the momentum of the nose overcoming wind resistance.  It was playing around with throwing and dropping lightweight kites that made me realize that even with standard weight kites, the trick was to give the kite some velocity in the direction slightly belly side of the tail, and the kite would then fly itself backwards in an arc from the flare to fade position.  - It was the lift from the trailing edge that was doing the turning.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: ae on March 15, 2014, 05:09 PM
Weight plays still a significant role on how easy a trick can be executed.
Especialy in rotational tricks, since you need momentum to carry the kite through them, and with less weight, less momentum. To overcome the drag of rotating the kite.


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: SkyRags on March 23, 2014, 01:16 AM
Weight plays still a significant role on how easy a trick can be executed.
Especialy in rotational tricks, since you need momentum to carry the kite through them, and with less weight, less momentum. To overcome the drag of rotating the kite.

This is certainly true from what I've found in learning

I have no one to teach me hands on in NZ (I believe I'm the only one out of 4+Mil people in my country that trick flies)

When trying to lazy my Talon UL after launching from the tide - the kite now being wet and heavier- it was much easier to execute the rotation than when the kite is dry

The same principle is involved in a side slide - where somewhat a portion of centrifugal force is applied in sliding the kite


Title: Re: Ok....I'm browsing for a good UL/SUL
Post by: damp_weather on March 23, 2014, 07:40 AM
I’d been struggling with if I had anything helpful to say in response to Andre’s (ae’s) posting, and I was going to leave alone.  But SkyRag posting has pushed me into saying something.

Andre, in making and flying very lightweight kites indeed: XULs, has gone further than my experience, and therefore has the opportunity to know and the authority to say the difference that weight makes.

Moreover there is a simple scientific argument: Energy is proportional to mass, and drag depends on materials and shape.  So one would expect that a SUL version, being very similar to but having less mass than a standard kite, would have less kinetic energy at the start of a slack line trick than a standard, but be subject to the same amount of drag.  So the SUL would slow down faster than a standard kite in a slack line trick as a greater percentage of the kinetic energy was consumed by the drag.


But, but, but:  My problem is that the simple argument above for standard kites tricking better than SULs is contradicted by everyday personal experience.  Any trick I can do, I can do whether the kite is a SUL or a standard.  Indeed some tricks are widely known for being easier to learn on a SUL – like the taz, and I also know this from personal experience.
Moreover, experience says that sometimes adding weight calms a kite down – for example I added the tail weight to an Ocius UL the other day and it became noticeably nicer on the ends of the lines.  The natural backflip wasn’t as deep, but I could do more with it, like more turns in a multi-lazy before the kite hit the ground or flipped over into a wrap, and being able to pull straight out of the backflip rather than having to go into a fade from a half-rotation.

My personal trouble is, I haven’t figured out the story of how significant kite weight is.  There are so many other things that affect the kinetic energy verses drag issue.  For example:
Quote
When trying to lazy my Talon UL after launching from the tide - the kite now being wet and heavier- it was much easier to execute the rotation than when the kite is dry

The same principle is involved in a side slide - where somewhat a portion of centrifugal force is applied in sliding the kite
…my first thought was that you are flying with a wet sail and so the way the sail catches the wind may have changed, as may have the amount of drag from air passing over the sail’s surface.  It would be quite a challenge to devise experiments that separate out and identify the contributions of a) wet sail shape/flexibility, sail weight’s contribution to kite’s inertial mass, and wet sail’s change in drag.

Does Cuben fibre have the same drag as Icarex?  (Yes they are both used for spinnaker sails of racing yachts – but those sails are so large, and their job is to pull the yachts along, so maybe a difference in drag would be less noticeable there than with a dual line kite doing a slack-line trick.)  What about the relative drag of mylar?

I do have direct experience that an Icarex sail with some flight hours flies better (and in lower winds) than a sail fresh and new.  We found this out from pairs flying practice.  And from comparing brand new and well used Icarex sails, I know it isn't that the sail has stretched.  The well used sail feels softer and less crisp.  - But does this change the drag due to the wind passing over a sail of the same shape, or is it that the softer sail can more quickly adapt to the optimum sail shape for the conditions, or interacts differently with turbulence??


So in summary, I don’t know.  And to me it is very complicated.

Pete

...And I do like the discussion on kite design evolution in the thread on "straight or curved leading edge design".