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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Single Line Kites => Topic started by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 07:06 AM



Title: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 07:06 AM
what type of knot is best to use to tie a loop in the end of the kite line, when forming a loop to use the loop for a larks head?

the three variations i have seen are....

- simple/single loop knot
- double loop knot
- figure eight knot

are they all pretty much the same? or are there any pros and cons to them?

do some weaken the line more than others?

part two to my question is....does it matter how big or small the loop is? meaning would a smaller loop be stronger than a bigger loop, or the other way around? or would it not matter what the size is at all?


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 07:50 AM
By 'loop knot' I'm guessing you mean overhand knot. If that's the case, an overhand knot will have about 60% strength, where a figure eight knot/loop will have about 80% strength.

The loop size doesn't affect strength. Make the loop large enough to easily form a larkshead to attach to the kite.

Charles


Title: Re: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: cerfvoliste on May 06, 2014, 08:04 AM
I personally use an over hand knot first because it is easier to fine tune and then a figure eight behind it. I use a 13 inch sleeve so that it ends up between 5 and 6 inches. I found this video very helpful. (In the hands of the Master)

http://youtu.be/AXA-mNtDNQE (http://youtu.be/AXA-mNtDNQE)
@

Remember, No Matter Where You Go, There  You Are.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 08:04 AM
By 'loop knot' I'm guessing you mean overhand knot.

yes that is correct, overhand knot sorry

so do most people use the figure eight knot cause its stronger?


Title: Re: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 08:13 AM
I personally use an over hand knot first because it is easier to fine tune and then a figure eight behind it. I use a 13 inch sleeve so that it ends up between 5 and 6 inches. I found this video very helpful. (In the hands of the Master)

[url]http://youtu.be/AXA-mNtDNQE[/url] ([url]http://youtu.be/AXA-mNtDNQE[/url])
@

Remember, No Matter Where You Go, There  You Are.


thanks for that video, it has now raised another question for me  ;D

i noticed that dude in the video has slipped some kind of protective covering over the original line, is that the recommended procedure?

in the past i have just been tying my kite string in a loop and using a larks head with a kite hook/leader that kind of looks like a fishing leader, it came with my kite reel though and i believe its rated at 200 pounds,

should i have a protective covering like the video?


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: SparkieRob on May 06, 2014, 09:34 AM
Lots of people sleeve and lots don't. When I've chopped down line sets I've only resleeved one set. The others I was too lazy to do it. If you don't sleeve, put a pull tab or loop on the end to make it easier to undo.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 09:49 AM
Sleeving your lines is not necessary for single line kites unless you're using kevlar or spectra.
You should just be able to larkshead the line directly to the towpoint on the kite. Having additional hardware just means something else may fail.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: MtnFlyer on May 06, 2014, 10:04 AM
From your posts, it's a bit unclear whether you're talking about spectra dual/quad linesets or dacron SLK line. My personal rules of thumb are generally...

SLKs: dacron (usually manufactured as dacron sleeving around a core); simple overhand knot on low strength lines, figure 8 knots on higher strength more critical lines.

Dual/Quad: Spectra (I personally sleeve it as it has more tendency to cut, but many do not -- personal preference); figure 8 knot due to its higher strength and greater resistance to slipping.

Mostly it's what you feel comfortable with.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 10:58 AM
From your posts, it's a bit unclear whether you're talking about spectra dual/quad linesets or dacron SLK line. My personal rules of thumb are generally...

SLKs: dacron (usually manufactured as dacron sleeving around a core); simple overhand knot on low strength lines, figure 8 knots on higher strength more critical lines.

Dual/Quad: Spectra (I personally sleeve it as it has more tendency to cut, but many do not -- personal preference); figure 8 knot due to its higher strength and greater resistance to slipping.

Mostly it's what you feel comfortable with.




thanks for this and all the replies,

to make things more clear and answer some of the questions,

its for a SLK 12 foot delta, and i will be using 500 pound kevlar line (ya i know),

i am just trying to figure out the best way (most secure way) to attach this line to the kite, i am having nightmares about my line snapping and watching my kite sail away into the sunset  :'(

i have a few different scenerios that i could use,

the attachment provided on the kite is just one single metal round ring that is about 3/4 inches in diameter,

my initial thought was to buy a 300 pound strength (or greater) kite hook/connector, and use a larks head knot attached to that, and clip that to the metal ring on the kite,

now i am toying with the idea of forgetting about the kite hook, and use a figure eight knot to tie a big loop on the end of the line, this loop would have to be about 12 inches long to fit my kite reel through it,

so i would put the large loop through the metal ring on the kite, and then put my entire kite reel of string through the 12 inch loop, this would basically mean i would have one single larks head knot connected directly to the kite,

would this be okay? and should i sleeve it or not?


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 11:21 AM
Make up a loop of heavy dacron line, tie a figure eight knot in it, cut it off the line so you now have a loop with a knot in it. Put the loop through the ring on the kite and pull the knot through so the knot becomes the point you'll larkshead your flying line to. I'll take pictures  of this tonight if necessary.

Since you're using kevlar line, you definitely should sleeve your line. Kevlar will cut itself in a knot.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 11:28 AM
Make up a loop of heavy dacron line, tie a figure eight knot in it, cut it off the line so you now have a loop with a knot in it. Put the loop through the ring on the kite and pull the knot through so the knot becomes the point you'll larkshead your flying line to. I'll take pictures  of this tonight if necessary.

i have heard of this method, i am just weary of the larks head somehow coming loose, or slipping off the other string/knot???

Quote
Since you're using kevlar line, you definitely should sleeve your line. Kevlar will cut itself in a knot.

i used kevlar for 2 years flying a 9 foot delta and never had an issue, i was using 150 pound line with a kite hook connector and no sleeving, only because that was what the place i bought it from recommended and i didnt know any better at the time,

do i need to sleeve if i use the method you describe above?


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 11:38 AM
I've never had a larkshead come loose on any of my kites. I suppose it's possible, but unlikely.

I fly exclusively on kevlar, and all my lines are sleeved. Using the method I described, you'll have kevlar line larksheaded to dacron, so to be safe, I'd recommend sleeving.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: thief on May 06, 2014, 11:40 AM
Also if you are on kevlar line larksheading to dacron or polyester pigtail you will cut through that pigtail when attaching and releasing the larkshead... Keep an eye on it


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 11:53 AM
I've never had a larkshead come loose on any of my kites. I suppose it's possible, but unlikely.

I fly exclusively on kevlar, and all my lines are sleeved. Using the method I described, you'll have kevlar line larksheaded to dacron, so to be safe, I'd recommend sleeving.

so you cant larks head kevlar onto kevlar?


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 12:12 PM
Sure, you can do that, but the fact that kevlar will cut itself in a knot means you don't want to tie knots in it or larkshead it to anything without sleeving. I know you stated that you've had no problems in the past, but it's better to be safe than sorry.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 06, 2014, 12:50 PM
Sure, you can do that, but the fact that kevlar will cut itself in a knot means you don't want to tie knots in it or larkshead it to anything without sleeving. I know you stated that you've had no problems in the past, but it's better to be safe than sorry.

you have more experience then i do, so i would like to agree with you and believe you, but im just having a hard time doing so for the fact that i flew my 9 foot with kevlar unsleeved for 2 years, and i only re-tied the loop once in that two years  ???


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Charles G on May 06, 2014, 01:21 PM
Most of my kites would be difficult or impossible to replace, so I tend to be a bit more cautious with how I fly them.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Allen Carter on May 06, 2014, 01:42 PM
There's a lot of good info on kite line breakage from Peter Lynn here:

http://www.gombergkites.com/faq/faq-s.html (http://www.gombergkites.com/faq/faq-s.html)

About half way down the page.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: thief on May 06, 2014, 01:49 PM
Most of my kites would be difficult or impossible to replace, so I tend to be a bit more cautious with how I fly them.
tis true...also the same reason why i do not fly above ~200'....


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 07, 2014, 07:17 AM
thanks, i appreciate all the replies,

would anybody like to comment on my following theory.....

what if i use a figure eight knot to tie a big loop on the end of the line, the loop would be about 12 inches long,

then i would put the loop through the ring on the kite, then put my entire kite reel (with line) through the 12 inch loop,

this would give me one larks head knot connected directly to the kite,

i would think this would be the simplest and most effective way, as there is no hardware to fail, but im no expert,

any opinions as to why this might be a good or bad idea?  8)


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Allen Carter on May 07, 2014, 08:23 AM
One big drawback would be if you need to disconnect a downed kite in a hurry. You'd have to cut the line, which would be no great loss of line, but would require a cutting tool on hand. For hand flying a single kite in an isolated area this may not be as big an issue, but when flying with any other kites or where there are people, buildings, power lines, whatever, down wind, being able to disconnect the kite easily from the line is very important.

A pigtail to larkshead your flying line to is easy to make and provides a quick connection point. The vast majority of SLKs use something like this as a connection point. https://www.gkites.com/howtofly/Larkshead.html (https://www.gkites.com/howtofly/Larkshead.html)


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: thief on May 07, 2014, 10:13 AM
What if i use a figure eight knot to tie a big loop on the end of the line, the loop would be about 12 inches long,

over thinking it....a larkshead will just work fine around the pigtail.....just keep an eye on both bits of line to see how they wear...

I also add a pull tab to my loops that i attach to the pigtail as well...
tie a big loop....and then tie another overhand knot close to the end that is big enough to get a finger tip on - but not too big that you would think that is how you attach to the pigtail....
then when you are done flying just tug on the pull tab and the larkshead is conveniently free.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 09, 2014, 03:08 PM
thanks for all the info,

i have been reading some conflicting info on the net, so i thought i would ask you guys this.....

which knot do you think is stronger to tie a loop to be used for a larks head?

a double overhand.....or.....a figure eight ?


Title: Re: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: cerfvoliste on May 09, 2014, 05:45 PM
Seriously?

Remember, No Matter Where You Go, There  You Are.


Title: Re: Types of Knots
Post by: Mikey1 on May 11, 2014, 05:41 AM
an overhand knot will have about 60% strength, where a figure eight knot/loop will have about 80% strength.



thanks,

so where would you rate a double overhand knot ?