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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Single Line Kites => Topic started by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 06:57 AM



Title: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 06:57 AM
i put my 12 foot delta up a few days ago, i always double check the rods while assembling and everything was fine, the kite flew fine,

i brought the kite down and the landing was smooth as can be (no hitting the ground), when disassembling the kite i pulled the center spar out and it was noticeably bent!

it was bent to the point where i had great difficulty pulling the two rods apart, they normally slide apart with very little effort,

the winds were moderate and not heavy at all, i have flown it in much heavier winds before without any problems,

i am very disappointed with this, i treat my kites like they are my babies, this must have happened during the flight,

i have emailed the company where i bought the kite and they are conveniently ignoring my emails, its amazing how fast they reply when i was inquiring about purchasing the kite,

i have a picture of the rod but the site says its too big to upload


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on June 04, 2014, 10:25 AM
lets see....
what is the spreader made from?
you will find much higher winds up further.....that might have wreaked havoc....
for the stuck ferrule:
there might be sand or something stuck in the ferrule....
the spreader might have splintered apart a little bit and is spread out inside the ferrule...

forward me the picture in an email and i can pop it up for you....

Did you contact the manufacturer company?


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 10:35 AM
lets see....
what is the spreader made from?
you will find much higher winds up further.....that might have wreaked havoc....
for the stuck ferrule:
there might be sand or something stuck in the ferrule....
the spreader might have splintered apart a little bit and is spread out inside the ferrule...

forward me the picture in an email and i can pop it up for you....

Did you contact the manufacturer company?

all the rods are made from the same material including the spreader,

i believe it is carbon fiber, the spreader is fine, no problems there, the spreader is alot thicker than the other rods,

it is the center spine that bent that goes from nose to tail,

i have had the kite up over 800 feet in what i would consider high winds without issues,

on this particular day i had it up no more than 300 feet in light to moderate winds compared to the latter,

the carbon fiber rods themselves are all fine, no cracks, no splinters, it is the aluminum connector where the two rods connect that bent,

i always make sure the rods are fully inserted during assembly,

the rods on my 9 foot are half the diameter of these rods and i never had a problem there,

i will email you the pic, it will be easier to understand in a pic,


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on June 04, 2014, 10:46 AM
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-T3IRp1Uq8vA/U49ZzAybdTI/AAAAAAAAlbQ/SV3K3uN7TF4/s640/IMG-20140530-01430.jpg)
nice ferrule!!!!

i would a)contact the manufacturer about it b)pick up a spare ferrule or two that is the correct size -also these might be stronger than the original one (you can google "kite ferrule" and there are some places to get them from)....


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Allen Carter on June 04, 2014, 11:03 AM
The kite store you bought from should be able to replace that, maybe even have a stronger alternative. That really shouldn't be so bendable!

If the replacement doesn't seem stronger, then you might consider augmenting with an internal ferrule of some sort. A carbon rod or tube that goes inside the spar to provide extra strength at the joint. Wouldn't need to be very long, but as weight isn't much of an issue with so big a kite, 12" or so would be OK. Gluing the ferrule in one spar would be permanent, but would make the rod longer than maybe would fit in the bag or something. All you'd really need to do is make sure the ferrule couldn't slide down in the spar, so gluing a narrow ring (like a 1/8" cutoff of the spar material) at the mid point to the ferrule would work and it would be removable and still fit inside the external ferrule.


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 11:17 AM
the aluminum bent part is glued to one of the rods, so im not sure i can get it off, or how to even go about trying to do so,

i have emailed the manufacturer, no reply, and no surprise here  ::)

i dont care how strong the winds are, these should be built to withstand it, the nylon and stitching should rip apart before anything like this happens,

i am a very handy guy, i have tried for over an hour to bend it back with a large screwdriver and other various tools, it is much better now but not perfect,

i would say its still bent maybe 2-3 degrees which is alot better but still bent, also the other rod will now not fully insert, it probably has about 1/4 inch left to slide it which it will not,

do you think this will affect its flight?


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on June 04, 2014, 11:26 AM
i would not use the ferrule again....aluminum can get cracks in it from being bent and it could cause a catastrophic event next time.....

okay..so....to remove a metal ferrule from a carbon or fiberglass rod you need heat....but gentle heat....very gentle heat....if you happen to cook it too much you will burn the resin out of the rod and then rod will be worthless....
i would slowly rotate the ferrule over a candle to heat it evenly and then pull the ferrule with a pair of pliers (it is going to get hot of course) to slip it off...you might then want to sand the old glue off and make sure a new one fits...and then to reassemble with a new dribble super glue (i like Zap-A-Gap best because it is also a gap filling glue) inside the ferrule...then spin the rod into the ferrule and that will spread the glue around....let it sit for a bit to harden and you should be good...

what company made it?   there might be a forum member who works there and be able to quicken up the response...
i have a vague recollection of seeing the aluminum ferrule taped on with electrical tape being from GoFly......but...that was a while back...


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 11:34 AM
i would not use the ferrule again....aluminum can get cracks in it from being bent and it could cause a catastrophic event next time.....

okay..so....to remove a metal ferrule from a carbon or fiberglass rod you need heat....but gentle heat....very gentle heat....if you happen to cook it too much you will burn the resin out of the rod and then rod will be worthless....
i would slowly rotate the ferrule over a candle to heat it evenly and then pull the ferrule with a pair of pliers (it is going to get hot of course) to slip it off...you might then want to sand the old glue off and make sure a new one fits...and then to reassemble with a new dribble super glue (i like Zap-A-Gap best because it is also a gap filling glue) inside the ferrule...then spin the rod into the ferrule and that will spread the glue around....let it sit for a bit to harden and you should be good...

what company made it?   there might be a forum member who works there and be able to quicken up the response...
i have a vague recollection of seeing the aluminum ferrule taped on with electrical tape being from GoFly......but...that was a while back...

thanks, i will try to remove it by doing that,

the kite is made by "Into The Wind", but i bought it from "Cobra Kites"

it is a 12 foot highlighter delta, it has the "Into The Wind" logo right on the kite

just brainstorming here, but would plumbers glue work?

the type they use on PVC or ABS pipes that smells like it could knock you out?


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Steve Hall on June 04, 2014, 11:53 AM
you need a new 10mm (.401 in.) ferrule.

You should be able to get a replacement from ITW or Cobra Kites ... if not goodwinds.com carries them.
it is not uncommon for ferrules to bend if they are fully seated on to the rods. always double check that all fittings are properly connected ... particularly important on large, hard-pulling kites.

As thief said DO NOT straighten and reuse the ferrule as it would be a shame to damage the sail over a $2-$3 part


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 04, 2014, 12:10 PM
you need a new 10mm (.401 in.) ferrule.

You should be able to get a replacement from ITW or Cobra Kites ... if not goodwinds.com carries them.
it is not uncommon for ferrules to bend if they are fully seated on to the rods. always double check that all fittings are properly connected ... particularly important on large, hard-pulling kites.

As thief said DO NOT straighten and reuse the ferrule as it would be a shame to damage the sail over a $2-$3 part

are these specifically made just for kites?

or could i find some kind of store locally that sells them?


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on June 04, 2014, 01:40 PM
you can find ferrules made out of brass or aluminum....and yes, most are made out of just ordinary tubing.....and makers have figured out which ones are the strongest and use them (i know that i have found some nice looking brass and aluminum tubing at my local hardware store that was crap as a ferrule)...
usually the ferrule is in position to hold two rods end-to-end in a straight line...and that can be a slithgly thinner wall tube...but where the ferrule you have is used to hold rods end-to-end this one (as you have seen) can also get some bending forces at play...so..a thicker wall was needed....

if you take some measurements of the spreaders diameter and the thickness of the wall of the ferrule you have you might be able to search out some tubing material that will provide a thicker wall...because this is on a good sized delta you could find some brass that might weigh more but that will not make a difference to this kite...

ITW is a very good, well known, long time kite company...I am certain that they will make it up to you...
Cobra Kites, is Ray and Jeanne Merry, Ray designed the Flexifoil kites that people love to have drag them around.....I am surprised that they have not responded already too....


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: nckiter on June 04, 2014, 02:02 PM
Another option if you continue to bend ferrules is to use and inner on one section of your spine and an outer ferrule on the other section. When you slide them together you basically have sandwiched your spine between two ferrules. Like Thief said, this size kite a little added weight is not going to be an issue.

I would stay away from the plumbers glue for ABS or PVC pipe. However 2 part epoxy is a favorite among many kite builders, also Gorilla brand now has a "flexible" CA (super glue) glue that withstands shock loads better that some of the traditional CA glues.


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 06, 2014, 08:56 AM

ITW is a very good, well known, long time kite company...I am certain that they will make it up to you...


the jury is still in deliberations about that decision,

i emailed ITW two days ago, still no reply


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 07, 2014, 10:56 AM
three business days, two emails sent, no reply  ::)


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on June 07, 2014, 06:01 PM
sometimes a phone call works best in these situations...


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Wayner on June 08, 2014, 04:53 PM
sometimes a phone call works best in these situations...

I agree.

I have had great support from them. 

They once even contacted me on a defect.


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 09, 2014, 10:29 AM
forget it, i have given up,

3 emails and 6 days is enough evidence for me to conclude one is being ignored, i found a similar part locally that i will try,

even though i feel like they should replace this part for me free of charge, i even told them i would buy the damn part if i had to, i don't really give a crap about the money,

a few months ago when i was looking to purchase a kite i emailed ITW 10-12 times with questions about certain kites, and every single time they replied to my email/questions within 2 hours of my email being sent,

i find it odd how quickly the replies come when you are looking to buy something from them, but if you have a problem, no reply at all,

alot of people come and talk to me about my kites when i fly, if they ever ask me where to purchase one i will definitely be telling them where NOT to go, as i am not happy with the product or the service


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Tmadz on June 09, 2014, 10:49 AM
Very disappointed to hear that Mikey. I hope there is some logical explanation.


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Lee S on June 11, 2014, 10:27 PM
Hey Mikey,
 i
Could you get an exact (or close) measurement of outside diameter of your spine rods?  If you're lacking a caliper, you can approximate size if you have a set of smallish metric wrenches. Reason I ask is I have found several ferrules of slightly less than 10mm, (I think, about .960-.980 in.) and I'd be happy to send them your way if you think they'll work for ya. Hit me with a e-mail or a PM.

Lee


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 12, 2014, 09:36 AM
Hey Mikey,
 i
Could you get an exact (or close) measurement of outside diameter of your spine rods?  If you're lacking a caliper, you can approximate size if you have a set of smallish metric wrenches. Reason I ask is I have found several ferrules of slightly less than 10mm, (I think, about .960-.980 in.) and I'd be happy to send them your way if you think they'll work for ya. Hit me with a e-mail or a PM.

Lee

thanks, that is very nice of you and i appreciate the offer very much, however there is no need now,

i just came on here to update this thread as it is only fair to ITW,

ITW did eventually reply to my many emails after 7 days and are sending me a new ferrule free of charge....i guess slow service is better than no service,

after a two week break from this kite i am actually now looking forward to flying it again in hopes i can figure out why it is so unstable,

i have been debating purchasing a large tail of some kind in hopes that it might help, but my thinking is a kite should fly fine by itself.....my 9 foot does



Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Lee S on June 12, 2014, 08:37 PM
Well, glad it's working out for you, I still got 'em should the situation change.

It occurred to me that now might be a good time to check all the measurements on your big kite. Most delta kites follow a pretty standard set of proportions, because that's what works best. In some very basic searching, I found this  http://es.kiteplans.org/planos/deltafor/deltafor_2.html (http://es.kiteplans.org/planos/deltafor/deltafor_2.html)  which should give you the relative sizes and angles. I tend to think maybe the towpoint is a bit too far back, giving an angle of attack that's just not working for the conditions. I've always thought of flat framed kites as skimming on top of the wind, so I set them all a bit flat. I was further thinking that my Pyro delta (the only delta I fly, I think) has a short 2-3 inch pigtail off the towpoint, which I then tie off my line to. This could conceivably give the kite a bit of room to "rock" for lack of a better term, and move about relative to any gusting. Or I could have just made that part up. I've always preferred kites with string bridles, and I adjust them accordingly. Keep us all updated!  I'm sure you'll get is sorted out, and learn something about kites and kiting in the process. That's what it's all about.


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 14, 2014, 04:00 PM
thanks Lee, i appreciate the help,

i think i will take measurements of my 9 foot and my 12 foot, then compare where the tow points are in relation to each kites measurements,

in the meantime, i have flown the 12 foot kite 3 times in the past 2 days with my home made ferrule until the other one arrives, the kite has flown perfectly all 3 times without any issues at all,

so im not really sure what to think, maybe it really is just taking time for me to get used to it, and learn how to handle it in certain wind conditions, i guess the problems could have been my fault all along,

i think at first i was a bit intimidated by it, instead of "letting it go" so to speak, when the kite wanted to climb at low altitudes, i think i have been holding it back too much,

live and learn i guess,


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Wayner on June 14, 2014, 04:03 PM
Glad you are enjoying your kite.  ;)


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on June 20, 2014, 08:10 AM
just wanted to update,

my free replacement ferrule arrived today from ITW, and the kite has been flying alot better lately, so im a happy guy and customer :)

i think i just needed to get used to the kite


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: JimNZ on July 13, 2014, 03:43 AM
Hi Mikey,

I just read this thread for the first time, and was quite surprised to hear of your problems.  As you know, I have the same kite (bought direct from ITW in my case.)  I've flown it many times in the last four years without ever having anything go wrong.  With any product, there can be a "dud" occasionally, and the ferrule on your kite seems to be in that category.  It's good to know you finally got the problem sorted and were able to fly the beautiful Highlighter again.

I'm surprised, too, that you didn't get better service from either ITW or Cobra Kites.  I've always found them both to be very helpful, although my distance from them makes things more difficult - having an email "conversation" can be rather protracted in view of the time difference, for one thing.  And waiting for a spare part to arrive entails a good deal of patience as the postal system is not exactly fast.  I hope you won't be permanently put off dealing with them. 

Whatever you do, don't buy kites direct from China (with a couple of honorable exceptions) or you will really find out what bad service is!  Some of the dealers there set out deliberately to cheat the customer, believing that the ignorant westerners won't know any better.

Jim


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: Mikey1 on July 13, 2014, 05:49 AM
I hope you won't be permanently put off dealing with them. 



no, not at all,

i believe ITW and cobra kites (where i bought it) are both very good companies and i would not hesitate to deal with either one of them again,

i think i over reacted and took my frustrations out on them when i shouldnt have, and i believe i apologized for that, if i didnt then consider this my apology,

although i am still not sure why the ferrule bent, i think it was just a one time unlucky incident, ITW made good and sent me a free ferrule,

since the new ferrule, the last 15-20 times i have flown the kite, it has flown perfect without any problems or issues,

i think the "flight problems" i was having were caused by myself, it just took me awhile to get used to the handling of the 12 foot from my 9 foot,

in fact, i am now thinking about buying the "sweet 16" 16 footer from ITW or cobra kites, that is why i was asking you about your 16 footer that you bought overseas, i wanted to know how the quality compared to ITW's 16 foot as the two kites look very similar,

i have dealt with one place from china called "emma kites" and have had very good experiences and service from them, i bought my kite reel, line, and my first 9 footer from them, they seem to be all very good quality products,


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: JimNZ on July 13, 2014, 05:58 AM
Mikey,

Emma Kites is one of the "honorable exceptions" I mentioned - never had a problem with them.

That Chinese version of the Sweet 16 seems to be variable, like a lot of stuff there.  The one I got is very good, but I know someone else who bought one and got something of lesser quality.  That's the trouble, no consistency even if you buy the same thing twice.  If you can afford it, I'd say go for the real thing every time, then you'll have no worries.

Have fun!

Jim


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: thief on July 13, 2014, 05:01 PM

Whatever you do, don't buy kites direct from China (with a couple of honorable exceptions) or you will really find out what bad service is!  Some of the dealers there set out deliberately to cheat the customer, believing that the ignorant westerners won't know any better.

Jim

Let's expand that to manufacturers ripping off designs..........


Title: Re: Bent Rod / Spar
Post by: JimNZ on July 13, 2014, 06:18 PM
They certainly do that, too.  When it's a "generic' design like a delta, then their copying is probably more a lack of imagination than anything.  There is an infinite number of variations of color, pattern, etc you could use on a delta, so why not innovate instead of copying?  But never make the mistake of thinking you get the same quality product if it's not an original, because that's almost certainly not true.  You get what you pay for, usually.
 
But they do, of course, deliberately rip off any original design they think they can make money from, to the extent where designers have told me of going to a kite festival in China with new kites and seeing copies of them available before they leave a couple of days later!  This means the designer gets no chance to make any profit from all his or her hard work, but it also means people end up buying inferior copies which will almost certainly not fly, or last, as well as the real thing.

Can it be stopped?  Some say if no-one buys those products it will cure the problem, but that's unrealistic.  Keen kite-fliers with the means to buy originals will not be tempted anyway; those who don't know the difference or who could never afford to buy the real thing will continue to purchase.

Manufacturers to some extent encourage all this by using Chinese factories to make virtually all their products, as with most things these days.  Even Peter Lynn, whose single-line products have always been made in the factory bearing his name in New Zealand (no longer owned by him, however) is having his latest Pilot kites and other new developments made in a Chinese factory and supplied directly from there to purchasers, cutting dealers out of the picture, too.

It would be nice if we could all buy direct from the designer every time, but that would certainly limit our choices.  I'm just having a "one off" kite made by a very good American designer, and it will be one of my "Special" kites.  But to do that for every kite would mean I'd have a much, much smaller collection than I have now.

The fact is that over a vast range of products the West has abandoned manufacturing to the Chinese, and this has brought with it many problems, not just those that affect kites and kite-fliers.