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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Todd Parker on June 29, 2014, 05:37 PM



Title: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on June 29, 2014, 05:37 PM
I just bought a new kite.  When I opened up the package, I was dismayed to see that there are dark grey stains on the sail.  The stains are long, thin, and run from the nose or leading edge to the trailing edge.  The sail has the appearance as if the spars were lightly smeared with ink before they were rolled up with the kite and stuffed into the bag.

Concerned, I contacted the vendor.  I was told by them that this is common and normal for the type of material that the sail is made out of.  They said that they have had many kites of the same type as mine, and others with the same sail material that have had this kind of staining.

Is this really normal?


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on June 29, 2014, 06:08 PM
Yeah, I just joined the forum today to ask this question.  Actually, I just *found* this forum yesterday.  I've had a few stunt kites over the years, but haven't been very serious about it.  A few months ago I learned about these fancy new "trick" kites, so I thought I'd try one.

I'm wondering if it would be bad form to mention what kite this is.  I'm pretty sure that it's bad form to mention the vendor, so I won't do that.

The web site says that the sail material is made out of "Icarex polyester", if that means anything to anybody.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Steve Hall on June 29, 2014, 06:17 PM
It is not unheard of ... usually that sort of staining comes from the bridle lines. Kite is wrapped up tightly in the bag ... in shipping/storage a little condensation occurs and the dye from the bridles lines leach into the sail material. It certainly does not affect performance and from the end of the lines I'd bet you can't see it.

It is okay to mention the specifics of the parties involved ... as long as what you are saying is true and your experience.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: tcope on June 29, 2014, 06:28 PM
I'm guessing these kites are made over seas and the designer and distributor are at the mercy of the over-seas shops. I can see where each kite obtained might not be opened and inspected but I see no reason why these companies should tell the customer that it's their problems. If the distributor sold the bad kite then _they_ they should take it back and return it to the manufacture under warranty. That is the correct thing to do.

While I've heard of sails being stained, it should not be normal and it should not be accepted by the customer. If it were me I'd ask the seller to make it right and post here as to what went on. If the seller does a good job, then everyone will know it.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on June 29, 2014, 06:48 PM
My vendor is willing to take the kite back for a full refund.  I'm not sure if they will pay for return shipping - I haven't asked.

Steve's explanation makes sense - thanks for that.  Np's vendor also mentioned dye from the leading/trailing edge.  Yeah, so dye from the bridle lines or from the leading/trailing edges leaching onto the sail due to condensation during shipping or storage.  OK.

The key point is that this doesn't seem to be an isolated issue.  What I'm hearing from my vendor and what np's vendor says is that most or all of the kites are like this.    Regardless of what a vendor is willing to do to rectify an issue, it sounds like if I want a new kite, it's going to have stains on the sail.  I just find that odd.

Are there trick kites that have leading/trailing edges and bridles lines that are made without dye?  Or maybe I'm buying my kite at the wrong time of year?  Maybe some other time of year the shipping from wherever it's made won't have as much of a problem with condensation?

I think I'm over-analyzing this.  But...  It was kinda spendy.  And it showed up brand new with stains on it.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Steve Hall on June 29, 2014, 07:12 PM
you are talking about a Flying Wings produced kite, right?


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: wagsboyz on June 29, 2014, 09:09 PM
As a customer paying full price for a product I would expect to receive a product in new un-damaged condition.  The retailer should be responsible for the product.  I would like to know who it is not taking responsibility so that I can stay away from them.....

Bad business..  Horrible customer service....

Buying slightly damaged products generally will be offered at significant discounts..... Blems


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on June 30, 2014, 04:42 PM
Just to follow up, in case anyone is curious...   :)

I took the kite onto my back porch today to get a look at it in the sunlight.  I propped it up on a couple of lounge chairs.  It looks worse in the sunlight as the stains are more visible when backlit.  The stains are very visible from 10 feet away and are all over the sail.  This is not acceptable.

I am returning the kite.  The vendor has stated, in writing, that they will refund the full cost of the kite.  They also said that they will *refund* me up to $14 for shipping.  They will not provide a pre-paid shipping label.  I have to front the cost of shipping then hope they refund it and that what they refund is at least what I paid for shipping.

The person that I talked with at the vendor said that they do 10% Q.C.  In other words, they randomly open up 10% of their product for inspection before shipping.  The other 90% gets sent straight out the door.  I can understand that on a $40-$50 kite.  But that's not what I bought.  I'd think you'd want to do 100% Q.C. on the high-dollar stuff.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 01, 2014, 06:16 AM
No, I won't be getting the same kite again.  According to their customer service rep that I talked to, most instances of that model of kite have that issue.  Which means that if I want one of those, I will have to live with stains on the sail.  I don't get it, but I guess I don't have to.

I'm looking into a different brand, based on a recommendation and some research that I'm doing now.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: RobB on July 01, 2014, 04:20 PM
It might be helpful to mention the kite in question... help others from getting stuck with the same problem. It's pretty clear who the vendor is, but it doesn't seem to be their fault, unless they're storing their stock improperly.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: thief on July 01, 2014, 05:51 PM
Plus if there was a certain kite you were looking for for a reason then if you mention which it was someone here will most likely have an idea of a replacement for you


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 01, 2014, 07:10 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't feel comfortable mentioning specifics in a public forum.  I have talked about the specifics in private messages to a couple of forum members.  One of whom gave me a recommendation on another kite that I'm seriously considering.

The original post wasn't meant as a cautionary tale on a specific kite model.  I was trying to find out if this was a common, normal, and even expected occurrence, since that was what the vendor was telling me and I was having a hard time believing that.

Thank you to everybody for your help.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: wagsboyz on July 01, 2014, 07:56 PM
I'm sorry, but I just don't feel comfortable mentioning specifics in a public forum.  I have talked about the specifics in private messages to a couple of forum members.  One of whom gave me a recommendation on another kite that I'm seriously considering.

The original post wasn't meant as a cautionary tale on a specific kite model.  I was trying to find out if this was a common, normal, and even expected occurrence, since that was what the vendor was telling me and I was having a hard time believing that.

Thank you to everybody for your help.

Parker, you have joined a great forum for kiting and it has a wealth of information and great people.  Hope to see you posting and being active in the future.  What ever kite you choose I'm sure you'll have a blast...  Caution:  many more kites will surely be in your future....

Good Winds




Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Gamelord on July 01, 2014, 11:57 PM
Stains on the sail can happen some times.  We had some kites that came in with some stains on them and worked with the customer and manufacturer to get the kites replaced with satisfactory units.  It is one of the things that can happen but from what we have seen over the last 12 years of business is that this is very rare.  I cant say for all manufacturers, but the ones that we carry have always stood behind their products and have replaced them no questions asked if there was ever an issue that was not satisfactory.  It didn't matter if it was small stains, bleeding from one color to another or the bridle or even stitch issues, glue issues, rods, etc...

Your dealer should take care of this for you without hesitation.  Being a dealer myself, I know first hand that it is something fairly simple to do.  Also, being a kite flyer, I would not accept a brand new expensive kite with stains on it, therefore I would not expect my customers to do the same.

I hope you get it taken care of.  If it is a kite from a manufacturer that we carry and your kite store doesn't get it taken care of for you.  Let me know and I will get it taken care of for you.

Let us know how it works out.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Gamelord on July 08, 2014, 06:58 PM
Awesome...glad you got it sorted out with whoever it was you were dealing with. :)


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 15, 2014, 05:35 PM
Stained kite redux....   Part II...   The saga continues....

I returned the kite to the vendor and they have refunded my money.  So that's OK.

I then bought another kite from a different vendor, made by a different manufacturer.  It showed up with the same problem.  The same *exact* problem.  The stains aren't as bad as the first kite, but they appear to be the same kind of thing.  Dark grey streaks running from the nose or leading edge to the trailing edge.  Sigh.

I contacted the vendor, who replied that in this case, the manufacturer likes to handle this type of thing directly.  At least the vendor didn't try to tell me that this was "normal".  The vendor contacted the manufacturer for me, and the manufacturer immediately shipped a replacement kite to me along with a pre-paid shipping label to send the other one back to them.  I received the replacement kite today.  And guess what?  It also has stains.  Again, not as bad.  This third kite doesn't have the long thin stains.  It just has a couple of smaller areas near the wing tips that are stained.

I sent another inquiry to the vendor asking about this, and asking for them to query the manufacturer about it.  This is three kites in a row with the same issue.  I'm starting to think that I have two choices : have a stained kite, or not have a kite at all.

This has been one of the more difficult purchases that I've ever made.  I thought this kite stuff was supposed to be fun...   :)

Well, whatever.  I thought I'd update this with my experiences so far in case anyone was curious.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: stapp59 on July 15, 2014, 05:49 PM
Odd saga as I've not seen that on a new kite before. While most of my kites are from custom builders, the half dozen or so 'factory' kites purchased the last couple of years have not had staining issues.  Shame on me though if I pack away a kite without proper drying when wet ::)


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: missionview on July 15, 2014, 07:26 PM
You are having some bad luck. I have bought Skyburner, Skysport Designs, Prism, and Revolution kites, within the last year, and none of them had this problem.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: thief on July 16, 2014, 04:38 AM
If you look at the amount of kites that come stained vs clean I am sure that the percentage is pretty low......
Staining might not have been caused by the manufacturer it could have been that the UPS driver left the box on his tail during a sudden downpour while loading his hand truck (had this happen)......

Todd, stick with it and feel free to ask the shop to do a visual check.... Explain that if they take two minutes to cheek that it could save them time and money as well solidify a happy long term customer..... I had customers that always requested a double check........


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 17, 2014, 03:21 PM
The vendor gave me the name and phone number of their contact at the manufacturer.  I called.  The person that I spoke with said that the replacement kite was carefully inspected before it left the factory and that it was pristine before it left.  So this is happening during shipping.  I am in Florida and this is the summer, so maybe the extra heat and humidity is causing unusual problems.  They speculated that it is likely the bridle line that is causing the issue.

I'm convinced that they are right, it's the bridle line, as previously talked about in this thread.  I noticed that the bridle line on the first kite, model "A", and the second and third kites, model "B", appear to be identical.  And the color of the bridle line exactly matches the color of the stains.  Maybe the bridle line manufacturer has recently changed the dye that is used to something that is less color fast.

The manufacturer's representative offered to replace the kite again, perhaps in a different color scheme that might not show stains as much.  They even offered to replace it with a different model.  I declined.  I can see some stains on even the darker, colored areas of the sail, not just the lighter areas.  And if this is happening during shipping, then it will just happen again.  I don't think there's any hope for it.  This is the third time in a row.

So my choice is to keep it as it is, or return it to the vendor for a refund.  I haven't decided yet what I'm going to do.  I'd like to actually have a kite...  :)


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: northwavesailor on July 17, 2014, 04:10 PM
Ship with the bridle removed?


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: basicbill on July 17, 2014, 04:22 PM
See if they would ship it overnight (Yeah I know, doubtful.) to minimize the heat and humidity exposure.

Bill


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Captainbob on July 17, 2014, 05:38 PM
Strange story. I have purchased 6 kites on line in the last 5 months in very Hot and humid Atlanta, and have not see one stain of any kind on any of them. Sounds to me like the shipper in your area has a problem. 


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 17, 2014, 06:41 PM
Yeah, I was wondering about asking if the bridle could be wrapped in plastic before the kite gets rolled up.  As far as removing the bridle, I doubt my ability to reinstall the bridle correctly.  Those knots look a little complicated.  :)

There were two different shipping methods : UPS ground and USPS Priority Mail 2-day. The Priority Mail shipment had to be on an airplane given the distance and timing.

6 kites in 5 months?  Wow.  The last kite that I bought before this was in the early 1980's.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: ko on July 18, 2014, 10:52 PM
get rid of it,or live with even worse stains  What do you think is going to happen when you put the kite up after flying in your damp weather?? The manufacturer doesn't think its the bridle he knows its the bridle.. Another model? by the same Manufacturer?Same bridle line?? Anyway sorry this is happening and I hope it doesn't happen to someone else because he or she wasn't warned
good luck Kurt


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Captainbob on July 19, 2014, 05:05 AM
I think bringing this issue up and not telling members the brand of the kite, is not helpful to the other members of the forum that want to avoid wasting time and money when they ruin into the same problem.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: missionview on July 19, 2014, 08:08 AM
I think bringing this issue up and not telling members the brand of the kite, is not helpful to the other members of the forum that want to avoid wasting time and money when they ruin into the same problem.

I agree


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: fidelio on July 19, 2014, 02:24 PM
I think bringing this issue up and not telling members the brand of the kite, is not helpful to the other members of the forum that want to avoid wasting time and money when they ruin into the same problem.
there has been no evidence provided to the community, only one sided testimony. so to attach a reputation to what so far is hearsay would be a disservice to the manufacturer, retailer, and the community.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Captainbob on July 19, 2014, 03:07 PM
I think bringing this issue up and not telling members the brand of the kite, is not helpful to the other members of the forum that want to avoid wasting time and money when they ruin into the same problem.
there has been no evidence provided to the community, only one sided testimony. so to attach a reputation to what so far is hearsay would be a disservice to the manufacturer, retailer, and the community.

Every forum I have been on, and I have been on plenty in the last 20+ years, has had posts from people having some issue that they are trying to resolve, with a product(s). There is no way that I can think of to "prove" any problem with any particular brand or product  to the readers of the forum. What is useful to forum members, is posts that explain a problem with a certain product, asking if anyone else has had a similar problem with that particular product  Not identifying the particular product that the OP is having a problem with  is of no use to anyone,  in my opinion. If the OP posted that he is having a problem with brand X, and two other people say they have  had the same problem, then everyone would learn that that the OP's problem is not an isolated instance. 


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: fidelio on July 19, 2014, 06:42 PM
the issue is not with software, electronics, a complicated mechanical system, or material defect. at issue is a blemish which (should be) easily rendered in a photograph.

your 20+ years experience should have also familiarized you with the common internet adage; pics or it didn't happen.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Captainbob on July 19, 2014, 07:26 PM
the issue is not with software, electronics, a complicated mechanical system, or material defect. at issue is a blemish which (should be) easily rendered in a photograph.

your 20+ years experience should have also familiarized you with the common internet adage; pics or it didn't happen.

So you are implying that the OP is a liar i.e. "it didn't happen"?  Interesting.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: ko on July 19, 2014, 07:49 PM
 :

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: fidelio on July 19, 2014, 11:12 PM
we don't have enough information to know what the truth is. that's my one and only point.


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: Todd Parker on July 21, 2014, 08:05 PM
Oh, picture.  I meant to do that before, but forgot.  Sorry.

I attached a picture.  This image is a close up crop on just one spot with a stain.

The original post wasn't meant to warn others about a problem with a specific kite or vendor, it was a general question about whether this is a normal occurrence or not.

Apart from it seeming to be in poor form to mention issues with a specific manufacturer or vendor in a public forum, the other major reason that I have declined to identify either is to shield myself from a potential libel lawsuit.  I know that what I have stated in this forum is factual, and therefore isn't libel, but I would very much like to not to have to prove that in court.

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: New kite with stains on the sail?
Post by: REVflyer on July 22, 2014, 03:52 AM
that could be a dye transfer from the dacron bridle core, (is it black or a darkish gray?)  I have a few revs with white Icarex and they do get stained occasionally without being used or ever becoming wet.

White material is lighter in weight (no dyes) and transmits light more freely than other colored fabrics of equal weights (translucent) so I prefer it, particularly when back-lighting at night with floral LEDS affixed to the magic sticks.