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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 07:24 AM



Title: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 07:24 AM
I am breaking through the 540 - sometimes I get it -  sometimes I don't. On the left edge flying down  at 45 degrees - How do you do your right hand hand imput? Does it change in different winds? I am low - my left arm extended - a one foot input (pull) more outward than towards me with the right hand - easier of course with a SUL or UL. It seems after the input the hand must come back to neutral (home) QUICKLY with a one or two step forward walk. What are your key thoughts say when doing the 540 with a standard kite say in 8-10 mph winds with your right hand and foot movement? Just curious. 


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: randyg on August 17, 2009, 07:58 AM
Run!

The 540 entry needs to be vertical or nearly so. There are some videos out there with pilots hand movements that might be of some help. An outward pull does nothing but look goofy. Pull straight back by your side.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: obijuankenobe on August 17, 2009, 09:19 AM
One thing that I think is not mentioned enough is that in higher winds, not only do you need to move fast, but at the right time. 

If you want to do a 540 in stiff winds, you don't want to start the run until you are throwing the lead hand for the flare, for example.  Before that, and you are only making things harder for yourself.  In other words, the timing of the slack is exactly the same in higher winds, but the speed and movement necessary to create it increases.

obi


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 10:27 AM
Thanks Randy - I of course have studied your Video along with Mama (i.e.,540 Studies). Interesting you would say vertical is EASIER? Vertical in the corner of the window with the wind being the easiest? Yes? I will try the pull straight back input. It seems its a bit difficult to judge on how much slack should be given at times ... probably because I have just started to break the trick down. I either get that 180 spin with a nose pop-up or a wing wrap after 360*. Randy - does the nose position help in this trick - after the flare is there a SIGN on when to hit the input to start the rotation? Does the nose up help here in your opinion?


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: tpatter on August 17, 2009, 12:19 PM
One thing I do in higher winds is to build up a little additional sail pressure (pull both lines evenly) right before the flare, move forward.   I think it helps to give you a little more time/slack and the kite flattens out more dramatically - anyhow, thats how I was taught to do them.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Kantaxel on August 17, 2009, 12:47 PM
I'm in the same boat myself.........the pull starts before the lead hand, in this case the left, finishes the flare.  I can get it everytime I remember to turn my body sideways to the kite...if I don't......it fails.....everytime :'(

Jim


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Gamelord on August 17, 2009, 01:06 PM
A very flat 540 is very beautiful, if you don't get the kite flat enough then the 540 doesn't work very well.  If you let the nose of the kite go up to far then you will tip wrap and/or the 540 will end up on the ground in a mess.  Monitoring how much line tension you have on your lines before you execute the 540 will help you dial in the trick.

The way I do them is to bring the kite nose up and then turn the kite nose down towards the ground.  As I make the turn, I step forwards and bring my hands as far behind me as possible.  Walking forward (as wind requires), I bring the kite down slowly until I get to where I am going to perform the 540.  Sweep both hands forward quickly so that the kite flares out on its belly.  You should be walking forward and moving your hands forward at the same time (as wind requires) to get the kite to flare - belly down, nose pointing away.  Now here's the trick.  As you sweep your hands forward, slow your "pull" hand as it comes barely past your leg while letting your other hand sweep all the way forward, what this does is lets the kite flare but also starts the kite into the turn of the 540.  As the 540 begins, give the back hand (the one that slowed down) a pop and then throw it forward to match the other hand.

I call it a "Draw-pop" move.  As you sweep your hands forward you draw one side of the kite back slightly and then pop it around. What you will feel is that the hand you are going to initiate the 540 with will have the slightest bit of tension on it while the other hand is completely slack.  With a little timing, you will know when to pop the tensioned line to get the kite to spin around and complete the 540.

I always have to pre-think which side I am going to do the 540 on before I start to make sure I draw and pop the correct hand. lol  If I am going to 540 on the right side of the window, I hold back and pop my left hand.  If on the left, then the right hand.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Allen Carter on August 17, 2009, 01:21 PM
Does what side of the window you're on really matter?

I only pull 540s with my left hand and I do 'em on either side of the window.

Some day I'll take the time to learn them the opposite way...



Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 01:39 PM
Thanks Gamelord. Its an interesting trick in that after the pull that hand MUST join the other hand already out forward. If the off-hand (or arm actually) is not out and after the pop that hand does not go to neutral (i.e., joining hands) immediately it seems the trick is ALWAYS doomed to failure. I like the idea of pulling back equally on both lines to give you more of an EDGE in higher winds or even in moderate? winds. As with any trick after awhile you get that feel on how much SLACK is going to make the trick WORK. I will try that slower motion with the pop hand waiting for that slight tension to occur before the input. This is new to me and it seems to be a KEY to the trick. I really feel this was what I was missing. When to input?
Its an interesting tip Gamelord like the Yo-Yo - where in any video does it indicate that wrapping the lines two or three times makes Yo-Yo's EASIER? When do you pull for the 540? Thanks - I will try it a couple of dozen times next time in the field - waiting for the slight TENSION prior to inputing.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: fidelio on August 17, 2009, 04:05 PM
slack is key as ANY tension of the lines while rotating will stop the kite dead in it's tracks. after you initiate rotation, you don't want the lines taut again until you're ready to fly off.

come to think of it, as to sides of the window, on the left side i'm always doing right handed clockwise rotations, and on the right side it's always doing left handed counter clockwise rotations. i'll have to try it reversed but atm mine do have sides i guess.

as to when to pull, it should be when your tug arm is at your side (from sweeping behind you) and the other is extended in front of you. this position really shouldn't change with wind, what will change with wind is how you move your feet and how quickly you swing your arms.

no matter the wind range of the kite, i'd say this trick is FAR easier to learn in the bottom half of your kites wind range instead of the top half.

so for ul - 2-3ish instead of 5-6ish or standard 4-6ish instead of 7-9ish.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: randyg on August 17, 2009, 05:31 PM
Thanks Randy - I of course have studied your Video along with Mama (i.e.,540 Studies). Interesting you would say vertical is EASIER? Vertical in the corner of the window with the wind being the easiest? Yes? I will try the pull straight back input. It seems its a bit difficult to judge on how much slack should be given at times ... probably because I have just started to break the trick down. I either get that 180 spin with a nose pop-up or a wing wrap after 360*. Randy - does the nose position help in this trick - after the flare is there a SIGN on when to hit the input to start the rotation? Does the nose up help here in your opinion?
I didn't say vertical was easier. I personally don't call it a 540 if the entry is at 45 degrees. Being a TP hack might explain such a character flaw. :D

The more you do this trick the easier it'll be. Duh! :-* The nose position is key but you'll have to figure that out for each kite you perform the trick with. That's the fun part. Tip wraps are easy...don't do 'em. Dose your slack; again a part you have figure out at the field. Yeah, I guess the nose up helps on some kites but get it too high and the chance for a tip wrap increases.

When the wind dies down, work on the 540 with a UL or SUL. I would suggest alternating one to the left and one to the right, over and over and over. You for sure want to learn this with both hands.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 05:35 PM
Good point Fidelio - I find the 540 easiest with my Benson Inner Space in 1-2 mph than with say the Sea Devil - Standard. I can do 80%+ with the BIS but with SD-Standard its about 10% at this point. Its obvious to me its MORE SLACK but every trick has some key points ... was just wondering if anybody had any key points I may have overlooked in the videos particularly in higher winds ... but as an example like an easy trick like the Lazy Susan ... I wait for the wing tip to RISE before I input the 360* rotation ... was just thinking if the kite position had a key position before the input. I seem to input right after the flat rotation. Should I wait for a SIGN? If you notice the MAMA videos he is in very low wind conditions doing the rotations on some 540s with the nose way up due to these wind conditions ... what about at 10 mph? I will try the Gamelord tension idea. This is my main point for this inquiry - when to hit the rotation.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 17, 2009, 06:23 PM
Thanks Randy - I will keep that in mind concerning the nose height.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Steve Hall on August 17, 2009, 06:37 PM
"older school" kites generally will handle the 540 better than the modern, pitch friendly trick kites.
Have you tried doing a vertical slot instead?  Not quite as elegant, but might be easier and I find I have a pretty good success rate in higher winds.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Bob D on August 18, 2009, 05:18 AM
I've found that some kites do certain tricks better than others. For 540s I've had great luck with the Exile, the Fearless and the Nirvana UL.

I have trouble with getting the nose of the Nirvana VV to flare up. And it's probably me, but it's not easy for me to 540 the Transfer xt.r.

The tip that got me to make it work is turning side-ways to extend my outside arm and remembering to keep the hand of my inside arm close to my hip before giving the line a tug to pop the 540.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RonG on August 18, 2009, 05:43 AM
Being a TP hack might explain such a character flaw. :D
Hardly a character flaw!  :)

One of the best things about Tricks Party is that it established some standards  8)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: DWayne on August 18, 2009, 06:27 AM
If you really want to increase the rate at which you progress, empty your kite bag. Pick a kite and fly that kite for five or six hundred hours.  ;)


Denny


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 18, 2009, 07:02 AM
Yeah, I have to agree with the whole flying one kite for a while. It looks like you've got the wind range covered in Sea Devils... Leave the others at home. Don't give yourself the choice. I've been doing that for the last few months and it certainly cuts the time spent getting used to what you're flying today. I miss my other kites, but I think I am focusing more on how to fly the trick, not the kite.
~Rob.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Gamelord on August 18, 2009, 11:55 AM
Does what side of the window you're on really matter?

I only pull 540s with my left hand and I do 'em on either side of the window.

Some day I'll take the time to learn them the opposite way...



Technically you can rotate the 540 with either hand pretty much anywhere in the wind window once you get the trick nailed.  For beginners I found that it is easiest to perform the trick on the far edge of the window in the least amount of wind.  Rotating towards the center of the window (from the far edge) seems to help the kite pull out of the 540 easier after the rotations.  When I first started learning the 540 I could only do them on the edge of the window, now that I have more experience with the trick I can do them in most wind conditions and pretty much anywhere in the window and don't have to resort the the far edge every time.

If the wind is super light - to the point of the kite barely staying in the air then you don't need to bother with the edge of the window at all and can do them directly downwind.

Hope that helps. :)



Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Gamelord on August 18, 2009, 12:10 PM
Good point Fidelio - I find the 540 easiest with my Benson Inner Space in 1-2 mph than with say the Sea Devil - Standard. I can do 80%+ with the BIS but with SD-Standard its about 10% at this point. Its obvious to me its MORE SLACK but every trick has some key points ... was just wondering if anybody had any key points I may have overlooked in the videos particularly in higher winds ... but as an example like an easy trick like the Lazy Susan ... I wait for the wing tip to RISE before I input the 360* rotation ... was just thinking if the kite position had a key position before the input. I seem to input right after the flat rotation. Should I wait for a SIGN? If you notice the MAMA videos he is in very low wind conditions doing the rotations on some 540s with the nose way up due to these wind conditions ... what about at 10 mph? I will try the Gamelord tension idea. This is my main point for this inquiry - when to hit the rotation.

Don't want to speak for Fidelio but may be able to comment on this one a little:

The BIS and DS are somewhat on opposite ends of the scale for flying characteristics.  I have flown both and watched Fidelio fly his Deep Space a lot (with some jealously as he makes that kite really perform well) and the difference between the two is even hard to compare.

Doing a 540 with the Inner Space requires some finesse and patience.  When you flare the kite out you wait slightly for the nose to come flat and wait for the wing to start rotating around and then give it a smooth pop to rotate.  When done perfectly the Inner Space will jump up about 3-4 feet, rotate cleanly and flat and then fold open to fly out.  Very graceful.  This is not the Deep Space in any way.  :D  With the Deep Space the 540 is done almost violently in comparison.  The flare is very fast and abrupt, the nose barely gets to the flat position while the kite starts its rotation and the pop is fast and very pronounced. The Deep Space will flip the entire 540 about as fast as the Inner Space will axle.  The 540 on the Deep Space is fast and exciting to watch, the trick is done pretty much before you realize what it was.  Timing is everything.  If you are waiting for the Deep Space nose to come up and float like the Inner Space you are too late and will probably end up with a tip wrap.  The tug on the Deep Space is so quick that it may appear that the nose of the kite is still pointing slightly towards the ground but when done properly will give you a very flat and fast 540.  It's like Flare-pop-spin and your done.  The neat thing about the Deep Space is that you can snap the 540 off in pretty much any wind condition because the kite flips onto its belly/back so quickly.  Just remember to throw in some fast slack.

Hope this helps.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 18, 2009, 12:44 PM
I have competition kites (SDs) and fun kites in my bag. Whenever I am perfecting or learning new tricks its on the Sea Devils. Jumping from kite to kite is a killer -- I fly these others just for fun and in some ways to take some of the wear/tear off the SDs. Its also refreshing to fly something new or different once in awhile. Some kites do some things well and other things not so well ... we hear that alot here and its of course TRUE ... but to be honest I have taken some recent advice to gospel ... if you really want to excel in trick flying LEARN that ONE kite INSIDE/OUT ... some annoying guy in CT. recently told me that ... THANKS!  ;D ;D ;D
On a seperate note along these lines ... I still can not figure out why Kitehouse built the Ghost that can multi-lazy like Crazy but its like a nightmare to flare/FADE the damn thing  :'( ... did not say broken axel to a Fade but flare to FADE. I have tested it out in perfect beach winds ... yes NYC ... I am staying with the FOURTH knot from the LEs as the stock setting ... still see no value in any of the other bridle settings!!!??? Also - NYC - I tried Knot six as you suggested to make the JLs easier and it does help a little bit but still no where near as smooth as the QPRo or SD. I will still work this kite but its a WEIRD ANIMAL.  :-[ One thing is for sure ... this kite REALLY grabs the wind  :)... LOW WIND that is ... WONDERFUL. Interesting to note that the Prism "Z" and GHOST have the same SIZE weight in the tail section.  ;).


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: zippy8 on August 18, 2009, 10:09 PM
Interesting to note that the Prism "Z" and GHOST have the same SIZE weight in the tail section.  ;).

(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/LikePeasInAPod.JPG)
The Prism and Kitehouse standard weights.

Mike.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: benjai on August 19, 2009, 05:02 AM
I echo all the stuff above. For me, it's about timing and off-hand slack. Sometimes I get lazy and don't flare the kite properly, but generally failures are down to insufficient slack. I went at this trick pretty hard a few months ago, and the video below shows a 20 minute session where I did nothing but 540's, trying to get flatter and practicing both hands. There's a segment in the middle that shows my inputs. Hope it's of some help...

540 practice (http://www.vimeo.com/4816635)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 19, 2009, 06:38 AM
Thanks Benjai - Your much more advanced into this trick than myself - just a thought however - and this is for everybody - is the 540 easier if the body continues in motion forward during the hand input and hand joining - your feet seem to STOP after the hand input (at times) - I know I have been conscious of this myself in making this rotation easier- I have been forcing myself to continue forward with my FEET after the input and hand joining - feels weird as most tricks do not require this combination of still walking forward (not a step but walking) AFTER the input - GOOD ADVICE EVERYONE - Some new things to try - 1. Try standing sideways to the kite, 2. Input hand close to the hip and brought forward SLOWER than the off-hand, 3. Feel the light tension prior to the input - all new tips - THANKS. As with any new trick eventually whose thinking after 48/50 540's in an afternoon ...


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: JimB on August 19, 2009, 08:36 AM
Did anybody post the ABW Eesy Peezey Method™ to this thread yet?

Here's a page:

http://wardley.org/kites/reckites/freestyle/ezpz540.html (http://wardley.org/kites/reckites/freestyle/ezpz540.html)

Pay particular attention to the Crap ASCII-Art™ under "The Uneven Kill" section.

One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RonG on August 19, 2009, 08:50 AM
I echo all the stuff above. For me, it's about timing and off-hand slack. Sometimes I get lazy and don't flare the kite properly, but generally failures are down to insufficient slack. I went at this trick pretty hard a few months ago, and the video below shows a 20 minute session where I did nothing but 540's, trying to get flatter and practicing both hands. There's a segment in the middle that shows my inputs. Hope it's of some help...

540 practice ([url]http://www.vimeo.com/4816635[/url])


I don't know what kind of kite that is, but it appears to really hate 540's  :(


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: asburyparkjohn on August 19, 2009, 09:08 AM
I read this before JB as gospel which is why I started to learn the 540 trick by flying to the left window corner at 45* since I am right-handed person (right hand input for clockwise rotations). Oddly enough I think there is a seperate trick in which you flare out and rotate it 180* and then fly off -  a pre540 learning curve trick - can't recall that trick name now ...


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: zippy8 on August 19, 2009, 09:18 AM
One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.


(http://www.slack.org.uk/kitepics/abw1.jpg)
Sam Eaton©

Ronnie... you may have noticed that the kids call them 540s now and not 540 Flat Spins. The clue is there in the name.  :(

Mike.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: JimB on August 19, 2009, 09:22 AM
Right handed inputs for counterclock-wise rotations...

It can be hard to learn a solid 540 on modern stunt kites.

They tend to pitch very easily resulting in an over-rotation rather than a pancaked kite.

The big danger with old school kites wasn't getting too much pitch, it was getting enough. Quite often the failure mode was powering the kite into the ground. Expensive.

It also seems that what people are calling a 540 these days, is actually more of a slot machine.

It's pretty easy to get a modern design to go flat and then bang it around.

It's much harder to do a classic 540 with the kite in a stalled pancake and then rotate it around flat.

It's worth learning the 540 from the ABW page, even though you will now have to control how far away the nose goes with the new kites, just to understand the mechanics of a classic 540. It's different than a slot.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: JimB on August 19, 2009, 09:33 AM
And that's probably why it's better to learn the slot first, even easier these days.

Just bang twice on the upper wing and slack.

Worry about cleaning it up later.

That'll get you started though.

One of the many reasons ABW is not just another pretty face.


([url]http://www.slack.org.uk/kitepics/abw1.jpg[/url])
Sam Eaton©

Ronnie... you may have noticed that the kids call them 540s now and not 540 Flat Spins. The clue is there in the name.  :(

Mike.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Allen Carter on August 19, 2009, 10:22 AM
I wish I had learnt the Slot first, but most of the kites I was flying at the time were not very slot friendly. One day after I'd been flying for a few years, Dan Whitney showed me how he was doing slots on his Gemini and the whole thing fell into place. 

I tend to look at aggressive 540s and slots as being two sides of the same sandwich, but slow, flat 540s (old skool) are sort of a different thing. A croissant, maybe.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RonG on August 19, 2009, 10:26 AM
Let's not forget that a nice, "by the book" slot is not a slash-and-hack, aggressive thing either.  A pop with one hand and release with the other to flatten the kite and turn the nose away, then another pop to initiate the spin.  The nicest ones have the instant of pause after the kite flares, then a well-timed pop and slack to produce a nice, flat spin.  And of course the all important clean, perfectly horizontal exit  :)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: JimB on August 19, 2009, 03:20 PM
That's very true but for someone just trying to get an idea, slash and hack may work to begin with. I'm all for "pretty", but there are some who will settle for "dirty" just to get started. And that's not so hard on a lot of newer kites.

Let's not forget that a nice, "by the book" slot is not a slash-and-hack, aggressive thing either.  A pop with one hand and release with the other to flatten the kite and turn the nose away, then another pop to initiate the spin.  The nicest ones have the instant of pause after the kite flares, then a well-timed pop and slack to produce a nice, flat spin.  And of course the all important clean, perfectly horizontal exit  :)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: chilese on August 19, 2009, 03:36 PM
Acceptable 540 at 40 seconds in. I've done better, and I've done worse.

Virtual Freestyle 10: John Chilese (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_DIiXgugBE#lq-lq2-hq)

Please, no comments on the lack of tricks in a VF entry. I realize my Freestyle doesn't meet the standards of some here on the Forum.  :-[


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 20, 2009, 04:52 AM
Holy cr@p, John, that 540 almost took that other guy's toupee off !  :D
What was that, a Vapor you were flying ? Either that or an Illusion? Those older Prism kites do some nice 540s, and I have found them to be pretty easy and nice looking on the Qpro, too. I used to wonder (before I could do a 540) if the rotation should go towards the center or the side of the wind window, but have found that it can go either way, on either side.

OK, stupid noob question... Slot machine, Taz, and 540... All pretty close to the same thing ? Are the Taz and the Slot just horizontal 540s in different directions ? I have never seen any of these tricks done in person, and it took a couple of years to learn the 540 from videos. Thanks to Randy, Martin & Reggie, I finally got it.

~Rob.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: obijuankenobe on August 20, 2009, 05:30 AM
OK, stupid noob question... Slot machine, Taz, and 540... All pretty close to the same thing ? Are the Taz and the Slot just horizontal 540s in different directions ? I have never seen any of these tricks done in person, and it took a couple of years to learn the 540 from videos. Thanks to Randy, Martin & Reggie, I finally got it.

~Rob.

They are all 540 spins started from an uneven flare, initiated from different orientations of flight (and therefore, different inputs to get the uneven flare)...for sure. 

This realization helped me to really perfect the slot and taz.  You need the same kite position for both, and they both start with the same orientation in flight (horizontal), but the slot spins from the upper wing...and the taz the bottom wing. 

From horizontal flight, getting to an uneven flare is easy for the slot (almost too easy, so poor slots don't look anything like a 540 spin but still often 'go around'), and comparably difficult for the taz...but the uneven flare is essentially the same position for both (albeit relative to different wings).   

obi


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: DWayne on August 20, 2009, 05:37 AM
A Taz is a 540 rotation. A slot is a 360 rotation.  ;)

Denny


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 20, 2009, 07:09 AM
Thanks, guys. This stuff is hard for me to tell from video. I often find it difficult to tell which way the kite is facing in video, let alone when I'm flying. Just a mental disconnect caused by dyslexia (sp?) I think...

~Rob.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: John Welden on August 20, 2009, 08:00 AM
I know I've posted this vid a million times, but I feel like it helps to show these sorts of flat spin tricks slow enough to where you can get a better idea of what the kite needs to do. Maybe some new people would like to see it.

A Vapor Video by John Welden (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yESWzRlbqMs#normal)

If you practice in light winds you can focus on the mechanics and not have to pop and pray that everything goes well. A normal quick 540 happens so fast, it's hard to understand what's going on.

If you're practicing these tricks and failing a lot, move on to something else and come back to it.  You don't want to train your muscles to do it wrong.

Key to flat spins is nose away control.  You can spin the kite around until the lines bind up if you can keep the nose from getting out of control.  In the video, I do reversing flat spins by controlling the kite when it's nose away. If I had let the nose flair up too much the kite would be out of control. Any time the kite is nose away and under control, a flat spin can be started.  Doesn't matter how you get there.

The key to nose away control is to always be in a down wind glide.  It's just like a plane coming in for a landing, if you go too slow or pitch up too much, you'll fall out of the sky. Through all my flat spins the kite is moving down wind. It's moving very slow, but still moving down wind.  For a nice flat 540 in higher winds, you should end up down wind quite a bit.



Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Steve Hall on August 20, 2009, 08:21 AM
I thought we were talking vertical slots.  Vertical slots are 540 degree rotation (or at least close to that).  Kite dependent, but if done correctly a vertical slot looks a whole lot like a 540.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: WinterDaze on August 20, 2009, 09:08 AM
Thanks, guys. This stuff is hard for me to tell from video. I often find it difficult to tell which way the kite is facing in video, let alone when I'm flying. Just a mental disconnect caused by dyslexia (sp?) I think...

~Rob.

I'm glad I'm not the only one ;) on all counts.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 20, 2009, 09:45 AM
Hey JohnW,

Another Vapor vid on the same page ! I have to get one of those !

Thanks for posting the video, I have seen it, but never really concentrated on the individual tricks, just enjoyed the flying. Let me ask... around 1:20 in the video, I always thought that was called a Pinwheel. Is that the case ? Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ? I'm starting to feel alot more enlightened if all these tricks are related...

~Rob.




Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RonG on August 20, 2009, 10:31 AM
Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ?
A pinwheel is like a multiple axel - or more accurately a continuous axel - spiraling down from the top of the window.  Pretty trick, and a nice way to gain ground in light wind.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: chilese on August 20, 2009, 11:57 AM
The Vapor was designed for John Welden. The rest of us merely dabble at it.  ???

He's pretty sweet with the Elixir too. 2002 Hot Tricks champ.

(http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/784/1100258842049870108S425x425Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1100258842049870108NWECOm)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: John Welden on August 20, 2009, 01:00 PM
Hey JohnW,

Another Vapor vid on the same page ! I have to get one of those !

Thanks for posting the video, I have seen it, but never really concentrated on the individual tricks, just enjoyed the flying. Let me ask... around 1:20 in the video, I always thought that was called a Pinwheel. Is that the case ? Is a Pinwheel just another variation on the 540 ? I'm starting to feel alot more enlightened if all these tricks are related...

~Rob.




Glad you like the video, thanks.

Like any trick, these things all seem to have about 30 different names.  In my world a pin wheel is started over head and the kite pretty much spirals down on its own.  If you're cool you catch it in your hands. The trick works best indoors or in almost zero wind and on short lines. 

In my vid, I like to think of those as multiple flat spins.  I define that as being in control of the kite 100% of the time.  At no time are both lines totally slack. 

A good way to learn multiple flatspins/axels is to start by practicing pinwheels.  Slowly advance from zero control, slack lines, to total control.  Play around and see what you can do to keep the kite going. It took me a long time, but that's how I learned. 

Use a pitch stable kite, it's a lot easier.  The Ozone is a great kite to learn on and is actually easier than the vapor to control in my opinion.   Also practice down wind glides until you can't stand it anymore. You must master that if you want to nail these sorts of tricks. 

Fun stuff if you really get into it.
JW


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: John Welden on August 20, 2009, 01:14 PM
Correction, I did "pop" a 540 at the end of that 130ish flat spin sequence.  I haven't watched that video for quite a while and forgot about the traditional 540 pop.  You can see both lines go all slack.  With limited altitude sometimes you've got to pop a quick spin to get it around in time. 


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: Steve Hall on August 20, 2009, 02:25 PM
I think the main reason I fly the TrickTail UL is for the 540's and Pinwheels.
TrickTail UL doin' some 540's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn5W3_yndfI#normal)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 20, 2009, 03:17 PM
John,
Thanks for your reply, you can never tell from the watching the videos the subtleties between different tricks. Unless you know what to look for. I never looked for slack in the lines, but I will now. I've gotten free-falling pinwheels before, but not much luck recovering them. I filmed myself working with low winds a few months ago. Low winds are rare where I fly, but once in a while I get to work with the Ozone...

Flying the Ozone

There's alot of walking downwind to gain ground.
Thanks again.
~Rob. (http://www.vimeo.com/5147153)


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: RobB on August 20, 2009, 03:28 PM
Steve...
540s to tip stand looks great ! I have to try that... Also, a 540 viewed from below is an angle that says alot about the trick. 540s and axels do look great with the TT. I hope they really do start making those again.
~Rob.


Title: Re: The 540 - Hit or Miss
Post by: John Welden on August 20, 2009, 03:32 PM
Steve,  nice flying, looks great.  The TT is king of flat spins.

Rob, looks like you've got the light wind flying figure out.  A little more time and I'm sure you'll have multiple axes down. Those down wind glides are nice and slow.