GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: DWayne on October 06, 2009, 02:05 PM



Title: Vortex
Post by: DWayne on October 06, 2009, 02:05 PM
Anyone know when the plans for Christian's new kite "Vortex" will be available?

http://users.skynet.be/cerfvolanttrick/jeu%20de%20cadre.htm (http://users.skynet.be/cerfvolanttrick/jeu%20de%20cadre.htm)


Denny


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: obijuankenobe on October 06, 2009, 02:28 PM
Craig offered the plans here:

http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9447 (http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9447)

Good luck with the build.

obi


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: DWayne on November 11, 2009, 09:27 AM
Is anyone else building one of these? Anyone got any helpful hints that might help my build?

Denny


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: dragonfly on November 24, 2009, 04:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCukKr1dxo#normal (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLCukKr1dxo#normal)

If a kite is worth building, it has to be Christian Derefat's Vortex. So far I only heard the finest.

Plans are here:-
http://users.skynet.be/cerfvolanttrick/prototypes.htm (http://users.skynet.be/cerfvolanttrick/prototypes.htm)
Colorizer here:
http://www.chemicalfrog.nl/Derefat_Vortex/index.html (http://www.chemicalfrog.nl/Derefat_Vortex/index.html)

Ordered only a sail and bridle from Christian ... very reasonable priced.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: werner on November 26, 2009, 12:07 PM
@DWayne The Vortex is very similar to the B'zar 2009 The tail and nose are identical. The Vortex' wingtips are less curved. Also position of the standoffs is very much the same.
Panel-layout and application of mylar is different, so you do get a different kite but I recognise a lot of the B'zar behaviour in this kite. You must make the effort and let me know the pro's and con's


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: DWayne on November 26, 2009, 01:26 PM
Thanks for the info Werner. I'll be sewing one up in the next week or so. I'll let you know what I think.

Denny


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: dragonfly on December 04, 2009, 02:44 PM
http://www.vimeo.com/7881836 (http://www.vimeo.com/7881836)
http://www.vimeo.com/7882134 (http://www.vimeo.com/7882134)
http://www.vimeo.com/7876964 (http://www.vimeo.com/7876964)

Vortex in progress ...


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: werner on December 15, 2009, 11:35 AM
Hi Dennis,

Did you go any further with this Vortex buiding project?
I am anxious to see the result and more important to read your first review!!


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: mikenchico on December 15, 2009, 02:50 PM
I like your method of leaving the fabric on the templates then taping the templates together. Great. And dang you make hot cutting look almost simple. Be looking forward to more instalments - Thanks



Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: Datenland on December 15, 2009, 05:59 PM
No need to hotcut Icarex! But do what seems easier to you, it doesn't hurt of course.

Erik


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: mikenchico on December 15, 2009, 07:01 PM
I always advise against hot cutting, but Dennis made it look so easy in those vid's his method makes me wonder if I spend more time with the xacto then he did with the hot cutter.

But until I get my glass table done I cut on hardboard and it sometimes leaves some wood fibers stuck on the cut, a bit sloppy.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: claus on January 04, 2010, 01:37 PM
@Eric

Just beautiful design  :P thumbs up

Claus
Denmark


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: claus on January 05, 2010, 08:28 AM
@Eric

Anyway... it is a beautiful  work you have done  :)


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: thief on January 08, 2010, 12:52 PM
some pix from Nieuwpoort january fly with Christian and his vortex'es

http://picasaweb.google.com/gemmeke/NieuwpoortFestival#5424410201037440626 (http://picasaweb.google.com/gemmeke/NieuwpoortFestival#5424410201037440626)


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 20, 2011, 02:21 PM
I am in the preparation stages for building a Vortex. This will be my first ever build, but I am planning on drawing from the wealth of experience and knowledge on this site and Kitebuilder.com. I also own a BMK Exile I plan on using as a standard for quality and a source of inspiration as I build. I am currently gathering the last bits of materials I will need to do this project.

There is one piece of information I can not seem to find in this thread, on the plans nor any other site for that matter. I need to know what the spine length is supposed to be. 82.5 cm is the closest I can guess from the plans.

Here is a picture of the plan section that "should have the measurement.
(http://billbo911.smugmug.com/Other/Experimental/i-Htrr5ZK/0/XL/Vortex-Frame-XL.jpg)



BTW, has anyone tried to build this with a UL or SUL frame with any luck? If so, what did you use for spars?


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 20, 2011, 03:55 PM
in terms of a UL frame (I've not seen/heard discussion of an SUL frame), here is a thread that covers a few possibilities.
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=4150.0 (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=4150.0)
I never ended up building a UL version - I may still yet.

in terms of the spine length, both of the Vortexes I've built have a spine of 80.5cm.  I cut my spine after I've made the sail and cut it to fit, so there is sometimes a 1/2cm variance depending on how I decide to finish the frame and what system I use to add tail weight and such. 

best of luck with your build.  The Vortex is one of my favorite kites, I'm sure you'll enjoy it.



Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: mikenchico on October 20, 2011, 05:00 PM
Perfect idea to use your BMK Exile as an example during your first build. Things like the leading edge cutouts, wingtip tensioning, sail reinforcements, bridle attachment etc that aren't alway clear in plans since most builders have their own preferences have been well studied by Ken. IMO his methods have been refined to an elegant simplicity, nothing fancy, just perfectly functional in a minimalist way. That's beauty in my eyes


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 20, 2011, 05:10 PM
his methods have been refined to an elegant simplicity, nothing fancy, just perfectly functional in a minimalist way. That's beauty in my eyes

couldn't have said it better myself when referring to Ken's work... the exact reason I've adopted many of his techniques in my own builds.  Not only have I learned from inspecting his kites, but he has explained some techniques to me by email which I have now shared in the B'zar 2011 build thread (with his permission). 



Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: mikenchico on October 20, 2011, 11:12 PM
We were lucky enough to attend one of his workshops here in Chico, we took a lot away from that experience. Anything we've built since then has pretty much followed the methods we learned that weekend.



Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: coogee on October 21, 2011, 04:45 PM
The UL is the Blue, white, slate one and is framed P100 in the LE, spine Excel 6mm, US Structil 5mm, LS 3PT, sail in Icarex, mylar 60gr, bridle turbo.
Weight, 12gr both
This is from a previous thread and is Mr Derafats frame options for a UL Vortex. I really like the Vortex great kite and the Organic is great fun, trick monster.
 Mike


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: kitebug on October 28, 2011, 08:57 AM
I am in the preparation stages for building a Vortex. This will be my first ever build, but I am planning on drawing from the wealth of experience and knowledge on this site and Kitebuilder.com. I also own a BMK Exile I plan on using as a standard for quality and a source of inspiration as I build. I am currently gathering the last bits of materials I will need to do this project.

There is one piece of information I can not seem to find in this thread, on the plans nor any other site for that matter. I need to know what the spine length is supposed to be. 82.5 cm is the closest I can guess from the plans.

Here is a picture of the plan section that "should have the measurement.
([url]http://billbo911.smugmug.com/Other/Experimental/i-Htrr5ZK/0/XL/Vortex-Frame-XL.jpg[/url])



BTW, has anyone tried to build this with a UL or SUL frame with any luck? If so, what did you use for spars?


Note that the bridle mark up note is misleading, it is a turbo. the 65+5 means the tow point is at 65 and the turbo returns 5 back to outhaul. I had this wrong in my first build and thanks to Don Cortez who poited this out to me I have now corrected mine and is it much better.

I also framed the LS with p300 as this is what I had on hand at the time, and the kite is not the same at all. I have also replacaed the LS to the recommeded 5PT, much much better.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 28, 2011, 10:51 AM
Thanks everyone for the pointers and advice. I will be starting this build in about a week. Surgery on Thurs, straight recovery for a couple days then start working on this project.
Since photography is one of my other hobbies, I might just document this project from a first time builders perspective. It could be quite interesting, and, if you see me heading down a wrong road, you might be able to point it out before I get past a point of no return.   ;)

I have the PC-31, poly thread, LE and TE slit polyester bridal line and most fittings. I will need to get the correct LE connectors to work with the framing. Right now I plan on using the following spars:

ULE = P90
LLE = P100
US = 5mm
LS = 3PT
Spine = P100


Wish me luck!!


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 28, 2011, 11:50 AM
what colors did you decide on?


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 28, 2011, 12:14 PM
what colors did you decide on?

Colors are going to be BRIGHT!
"Wine" red "Grape" purple and Neon Yellow.
I love highly contrasting colors, and I really dig Neon Yellow as a color on wing tips.
The final panel color scheme hasn't been locked down yet. I have five or six full layouts I really like, but I haven't quite nailed down which one I'll use this time around. I'll try to post my final decision before I start the build.

I like the trend toward grays and highlight colors, but hey, I also like bucking trends too. :D
So, I expect a bit of critiquing, but that only helps me do better work.
When I post my work on different photography forums, I invite critiquing. It helps me look at things from different perspectives, and thus expands my creativeness.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 31, 2011, 11:10 AM
OK, before I dive head first into this project, I have a question for you expert builders.

The Vortex plans call for a Mylar backed panel where the standoffs attach.
(http://billbo911.smugmug.com/Other/Experimental/i-NpDdc4N/0/XL/Vortex-Mylar-panel-XL.jpg)
I was planning on using a 2 inch wide strip of Mylar Laminated tape. http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=259 (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=259)
This tape would be sewn in at the TE on the panel the is called to be backed.

Is this going to be sufficient for a UL version of the Vortex, or should I go ahead and pop for a yard of Mylar cloth?


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 31, 2011, 11:53 AM
I think you you may want to invest in some mylar that is slightly heavier than the mylar laminate tape.  You would be able to get away with using less than what the plan calls for, but I think you will appreciate the increased durability of having a doubled layer of fabric.  The other thing you can do (that I've had success with) is doubling with a layer of PC31, and using a strip of 1 inch dacron over that portion of the trailing edge for the durability. 

The other reason to buy some mylar is that inevitably, you will want to build another kite after you fly the Vortex!  Kite building is addictive. 


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 31, 2011, 12:17 PM
I think you you may want to invest in some mylar that is slightly heavier than the mylar laminate tape.  You would be able to get away with using less than what the plan calls for, but I think you will appreciate the increased durability of having a doubled layer of fabric.  The other thing you can do (that I've had success with) is doubling with a layer of PC31, and using a strip of 1 inch dacron over that portion of the trailing edge for the durability. 

I believe this is exactly the same material you used for the leading edge on your B'zar 2011 LE. 2" wide Mylar backed Dacron. If that isn't durable, I don't know what is. I have no issue ordering some Mylar cloth, such as is available from Kitebuilders.com, I just want to make sure it is the right material so I only have to order it once.

The other reason to buy some mylar is that inevitably, you will want to build another kite after you fly the Vortex!  Kite building is addictive. 
That is known fact! I already have ideas for builds two and three. :) So as long as the stuff on Kitebuilders is what I want, then I will get it on order.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 31, 2011, 12:22 PM
make sure you clarify with Steve if you order what you are looking at.  I would be very surprised if it is the same stuff I used on the B'zar 2011, but really happy if it is (as there has not been a source for this material available in small quantities).  My feeling is that the tape you are looking at is a thin, lightweight mylar used for sail repairs.  I've been wrong many times in the past, but I would hate for you to wait for the delivery only to find out it isn't what you expected. 

Glad to hear you're planning your next builds already!  (I have three kites in the works right now and have 3 more planned... and so it will probably be forever!). 


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on October 31, 2011, 12:28 PM
after looking at Steve's website a little closer, you may be right, that this is the same stuff used on the B'zar.  I have quite a substantial collection of it now, but it is nice to know there may be a supply of it for future purchases.  (still make sure before you order).

Even if it is the same material as I use on the B'zar leading edge, remember that it is black and will show through any colored fabric you use for the sail... another reason to use clear mylar.

Can't wait to see some pictures of your Vortex UL (you should post some pics of the build as well)!


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on October 31, 2011, 12:39 PM
after looking at Steve's website a little closer, you may be right, that this is the same stuff used on the B'zar.  I have quite a substantial collection of it now, but it is nice to know there may be a supply of it for future purchases.  (still make sure before you order).

Even if it is the same material as I use on the B'zar leading edge, remember that it is black and will show through any colored fabric you use for the sail... another reason to use clear mylar.

Can't wait to see some pictures of your Vortex UL (you should post some pics of the build as well)!

I'm holding a roll of it in my hand, it looks identical to what you show on you B'zar, except mine is not on a spool, I only ordered 15 ft.
The color is also one of the biggest reasons I asked this question. When on the TE, it would show up as a black section when back lit. Not a bad thing, but maybe not ideal. Mylar cloth will be ordered shortly.  ;)


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on November 01, 2011, 03:25 PM
OK, all parts are ordered. All plans appear to be coming together nicely. So, it's time for me to finalize my color selections.
These are the colors I will be using: Neon Yellow, Wine Red and Grape Purple.

After many iterations, I believe I will be using the following panel layout, although, this is not cast in concrete, yet.
(http://billbo911.smugmug.com/Other/Experimental/i-6vgr3rT/0/L/Vortex-color-L.jpg)

Unless someone can convince me, with good reasoning, to use a different layout, I'll make my next post about this build as a build thread such as Sugarbaker has done. Just don't expect me to produce the same quality kite as this is my first build.  :-X


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on November 01, 2011, 04:03 PM
you won't be disappointed! The vortex is such a great kite I've made two, and may make a third one this spring. 


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on November 14, 2011, 08:17 AM
Before I mess up my Vortex build, I have a question.
The positions marked on the plans for the US and LS, what do they represent? Are they the intersect position of the spar, the upper edge of the APA connector, the lower edge of the APA connector or the center of the APA connector?


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: AKA_MrBill on November 16, 2011, 05:45 PM
OK, one more question: Where should the inner and outer standoffs be located along the spreaders? Any measurements?


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: iwan00 on August 21, 2013, 05:44 AM
Before I mess up my Vortex build, I have a question.
The positions marked on the plans for the US and LS, what do they represent? Are they the intersect position of the spar, the upper edge of the APA connector, the lower edge of the APA connector or the center of the APA connector?

I have also started to bulid Vorthex an the same question is bothering me, maybe somebody could answer PLEASE :)

my vortex will look like this, I hope.. :
(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/dDCpgt9jXpH6jEfg6R4zRQkPbI2oFnbYa0TEwm4MvAQ=w877-h658-no)


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: sugarbaker on August 21, 2013, 09:19 AM
Vortex is a great kite... I enjoy mine very much. It's been a while since I put mine together, but I believe I centered my APA connectors on the leading edge connector marks on the plan.  Give it a go, but don't place stoppers until you're happy with the setup... this will allow some fine adjustment.


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: iwan00 on August 22, 2013, 01:50 AM
[..]but don't place stoppers until you're happy with the setup... this will allow some fine adjustment.

good hint, thanks.

first half is done:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-HV1icO9kAnM/UhUI7BAcpRI/AAAAAAAACqs/AiT9VeJjk9o/w1118-h476-no/P8200120.JPG)

i have changed my mind and will not back full panel with mylar, i'll just put a stip of reinforcement under standoff connector line like AKA_MrBill does in his build


Title: Re: Vortex
Post by: iwan00 on September 30, 2013, 07:36 AM
Sail is done:
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-C_Jh8wO5dYY/UjAxuwTKB2I/AAAAAAAACyg/MeXLbqck5aw/w877-h658-no/CAM00094.jpg)


Now it's the time for framing.

I am wondering between 5PT and BD Nitro STD for LS.
Also to change Spine to 5PT
Maybe somebody have tried this solution? Is it good idea at all?