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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: asburyparkjohn on October 12, 2009, 06:20 AM



Title: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 12, 2009, 06:20 AM
Fearless - SUL. Someone told me this is the ultimate SUL. Never flown one before but of all the SULs I have flown they are usually fragile and have a tough time cutting through the air with any consistency even the SD-SUL. The wind range on this kite is listed 0-10 mph. I purchased a custom color in MANGO with red eyes. I am happy with the Sea Devils but felt an upgrade to the Fearless SUL was necessary. For the rare flyer who has flown them BOTH how do you compare the SD-SUL with the Fearless-SUL. THe word on the street "so to speak" is that there is a big difference. Either way I am commited to this purchase and its IN-PROGRESS.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Bob D on October 12, 2009, 06:47 AM
I would think that any SUL would be framed with something like 2PT sticks and it's not going to have a lot of mass to trick. I have a Nirvana SUL and it's a different flying experience because it needs to be coaxed and not snapped (made that mistake once).

If you have the SD SUL than I don't imagine that the Fearless SUL is going to be a huge difference. I have a Fearless std that I love  but I don't think the SUL would have the same built-in tricks if the framing is 2PT.

In any case, you can't go wrong just by owning another Fearless.Lam makes nice kitesw!


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 12, 2009, 07:19 AM
One thing I have done with my SD-SUL is I have 2PT and 3PT lower spreaders. This may give me the advantage I need to snap rather than coax (I here you - excellent choice of words Bob) in the lower winds. Its just a question at what mph will the LS 3PTs not work?


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: tpatter on October 12, 2009, 11:17 AM
I imagine that you will be very happy with your Fearless SUL - trickiest SUL that I've ever tried.  You can do everything on it that the Std does - including fast one-pop yoyos, sweet JLs, multi-lazys, insanes, all in very low wind and in basically the same style/inputs as the light and standard (just a little slower).  There is little adjustment in moving to the SUL (unlike many other kites) - everything that the FL does so well is all there.

Many tricks are actually easier on the SUL since you are flying in little wind and can go a bit slower - its a great teacher.

I also have 2pt and 3pt lower spreaders for it, but only use the 2pt so far.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 12, 2009, 12:03 PM
Thanks TPATTER. I did correspond with Lam directly but as you know his English is not very good and he just suggested I look at his promotional videos. I guess the main question we all have is what is the main difference in tricking between the SD & Fearless. We read about easier multi-lazies and reverse insanes. As most people seems to indicate is this really worth $450 or so ... however its just a feeling as you indicate this Fearless SUL in the low wind range will take me to a new level from his SD. I believe it will. I did talk to another Master pilot recently and he mentioned to me since Lam is only  5' 10" or so (small frame pilot) he makes his kites requiring very little input which to me at my age (55 years old) really suits my flying style since small inputs = small effort in slapping around a stunt kite as I have enough problems with moving the feet constantly. There is also the truth that one has to allow a year or so to learn a stunt kite inside/out as many pilots out there that like large inputs may find a SD or Fearless not to their liking. If you want something TPATTER to relate to lets talk about the Jacobs Ladder. I start this trick with a backflip, then the 180* Lazy Susan ... then the key move the reverse flip to the FADE. Most SULs I have flown show resistance to this move and almost require some footwork forward to COAX the kite to the FADE due to wind resistance and the frame of the kite and then the easy lateral roll out to complete the trick. With your experience on the Fearless SUL - is the move to the FADE a coax or a snap with the Fearless SUL?


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: ezme6 on October 12, 2009, 12:24 PM
I no longer have my SD SUL, no comparison in my opinion.  8)


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: tpatter on October 12, 2009, 01:39 PM
is the move to the FADE a coax or a snap with the Fearless SUL?

You can do it either way - fast or slow, no coaxing required.

The kite really excels at the JL and other combo-based tricks. Hard to describe - you just have to try it.  You might have trouble wanting to move back to your other kites once you get used to this one - I sure did.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: JimB on October 12, 2009, 05:25 PM
snip..

"I did talk to another Master pilot recently and he mentioned to me since Lam is only  5' 10' or so ..." snip.

Only in an alternate dimension where Inches are very short.

 ;)


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: ezme6 on October 12, 2009, 06:00 PM
snip..

"I did talk to another Master pilot recently and he mentioned to me since Lam is only  5' 10' or so ..." snip.

Only in an alternate dimension where Inches are very short.

 ;)

He's that tall?


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 12, 2009, 06:03 PM
Corrected - Mr. Overpeck  ;)


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 12, 2009, 10:15 PM
I have flown the Fearless SUL & the Sea devil SUL side by side in very light winds. Although there is a resemblance they are very different.

The Sea Devil SUL has more drive in lower winds and is easier to keep powered up especially for people who are not used to SUL winds. It's floatier too. At first one may think that it's a superior SUL. But....

The Fearless SUL, while still having a SUL feel, will perform more like the standard when it comes to tricking. You will have to move a bit more and be aware that the kite pitches easily, especially in light winds. But if you want a SUL that will Backspin, multi Lazy, Taz, Wap do Wap, Comete etc. and just about any other trick you can think of you'll be a happy Fearless SUL owner.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 13, 2009, 09:25 AM
Dolphinboy -This seems to be the information I am getting on the Fearless SUL ... as you move away from the SUL the differences are smaller in the other classes (i.e., UL, Light, Standard & Mid-Vent). Either way my pocketbook will keep me with the SDs. To be honest I was never really happy with the floaty nature of the SD-SUL ... your comments have pretty much confirmed my current investment is a good one.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 13, 2009, 09:56 PM
You will love the Fearless SUL. The price seems crazy high but once I got mine I've never ever regretted spending the money.

I am still saving up for a standard to go along with my sul but funds have been tight lately so it'll have to wait a bit longer.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Kantaxel on October 14, 2009, 02:18 AM
So........forgive me if I'm a little late on the uptake.......Are you guys talking the SUL or the Tattoo?  I've flown both ours with 2 and 3pt spreaders and there is little difference between the two except the Tattoo goes lower with less work.............

Tom's right about trying to fly other kites after the Fearless...........you get so spoiled so quickly >:(


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: RobB on October 14, 2009, 04:24 AM
There's a difference between the tatoo and the SUL other than cosmetic ? How would you compare either the SD SUL or the FL SUL to the Exile UL ? I've been having a great time with my Exile UL, but am considering another Lam kite, one for lighter winds than my SD std. I know of at least one person that sold an Exile UL in favor of a FL, what does the FL do that the Exile wouldn't ?
~Rob.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: anOldMan on October 14, 2009, 07:07 AM
I know of at least one person that sold an Exile UL in favor of a FL, what does the FL do that the Exile wouldn't ?
~Rob.

Fly in 0 wind. ;) ;)

IMO the main difference between the Fearless and the Exile is the FL is a competition kite where the Exile is a recreational kite. That is not to say the Exile cannot do all the tricks. It is just that the Exile seems more relaxed about it. The FL is just a little more precise, needs a little less effort and a little quicker when doing tricks.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Kantaxel on October 14, 2009, 07:57 AM
There's a difference between the tatoo and the SUL other than cosmetic ? ~Rob.

I can't answer all the other questions, (I think Tom would be the resident Fearless/Exile UL answerman) but Lam told me that applique, no matter how well it's done, will not allow the sail to fill as well, hence the tattoo flys lower than the SUL..................makes sense to me and even I can tell the difference on the lines. :o

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: RobB on October 14, 2009, 08:54 AM
Oh, no ! I heard that the Tatoo isn't being made anymore... Is that the case ? Did I miss the boat ?
 :o


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 14, 2009, 01:59 PM
I've flown the Fearless SUL and I own the SUL Tattoo version. They trick the same and any difference will only be felt at the very bottom end of the wind range.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Kantaxel on October 14, 2009, 03:37 PM
Oh, no ! I heard that the Tatoo isn't being made anymore... Is that the case ? Did I miss the boat ?
 :o
I think no.......There are a lot of rumors out there, but when I last talked to Lam (Friday the ninth) they were still available..........(he called them a true SUL).......................

The vent is in production now, too................(they will fly easy down to four mph)

Order one Rob.........you WILL like it :-X

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: tpatter on October 14, 2009, 06:59 PM
There's a difference between the tatoo and the SUL other than cosmetic ? How would you compare either the SD SUL or the FL SUL to the Exile UL ? I've been having a great time with my Exile UL, but am considering another Lam kite, one for lighter winds than my SD std. I know of at least one person that sold an Exile UL in favor of a FL, what does the FL do that the Exile wouldn't ?
~Rob.

Fearless and Exile UL are two totally different kites. 

The EUL is slow, graceful, and designed for very elegant low wind tricks - sort of like a waltz in my mind.  It really excels at the older school tricks and is very floaty.  Its a joy to fly, but takes a decent flyer to get the most out of it - I'd call it more of a finesse kite.  It does not like to be man-handled.

The Fearless SUL is more of a dance-party kite.  No-one is going to try and do a pin-wheel on one.  It begs to be tricked and is very pitch and turtle friendly.  Much more modern-trick capable than the EUL - seems designed from the ground up for trick flying.

Both great kites, but for different purposes.



Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: ko on October 14, 2009, 07:40 PM
my tattoo came today pics to come,  it is black because that is what lam thinks works best with the theme.  the build as always is awesome i have no problem communicating with lam he is really committed to building what you need and is a great guy to talk with IMO  KO


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: ezme6 on October 14, 2009, 08:13 PM
Lam has always been a step ahead IMHO 8)


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 15, 2009, 04:59 PM
I will probably be venturing toward the SSUL (Tattoo). I will be talking to Lam shortly on this kite. My desire is to find a kite than can fly with the same winds as the Benson IS in near zero winds. At times in the early morning there are days in the Summer with virtually no wind only the Benson IS is good for me but of course I discovered the Ghost. But it loves the turtle and fade to flare tricks are a problem INITIALLY. I hope this kite fits in this nitch. As I undestand it the kite has no pattern but holes designed as a Fearless SUL and above - hence the name tattoo. This one kite should replace the Benson IS & SD-SUL. For those who flown the Tattoo what is the upper limit. What is the lower spreader in this kite? Is it 2PT? I guess as with any Lam kite structural substitutions can me made like putting 5PT on the Light version or 7PT on the standard version as I currently do with upper wind changes on my SDs. Will discuss with Lam but looking for different opinions here.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: tpatter on October 15, 2009, 05:49 PM
John,

The SUL comes in 2 flavors - the Tattoo and the regular sail pattern.   The SSUL is a special kite made for ultra low winds, but Lam generally does not make that one as far as I know.   Confusingly enough, the one SSUL I've flown is not a Tattoo.

The SSUL is an amazing kite, very specialized for lowest wind possible, but it will not one-pop in what I'd call a standard way (like the other Fearless).  I've flown Sherril's and he could provide more info on it - I think Lam made it at his request looking to go as light as possible, it may be the only one produced. 

The SUL goes very low as it is, particularly when its smooth wind.  I can fly it in the same wind that I would fly the Exile UL or Shadow in.  You can't go wrong with the SUL - it one of the most amazing kites I've ever flown.


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Kantaxel on October 15, 2009, 06:07 PM
John,
In my last conversation with Lam, he told me that he had only made two of the kites Tom's talking about. (SSUL)

He told me that it was framed in spars less than two PTs, (he didn't expand on that) and I got the impression that it was pretty fragile.  The Tatoo can have either 3 or 2Pt spreaders which makes it pretty much like any other of the Fearless Lam makes.

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: asburyparkjohn on October 15, 2009, 06:16 PM
TPATTER - Well - I just a had an incredible one hour conversation with Lam. To make a long story short I am purchasing the Tattoo in Black the only color preferred by Lam for this kite. It seems the black color aids him in the sewing, overall design & building of this kite. What we really discussed is that I needed a kite for near zero winds which could fly side by side with a Benson IS in the early morning hours. He did laugh at my request but I was quick to point out not trick but fly equally with a BIS in near zero winds. We then discussed the option of getting two LSs. It will come with a 2PT LS for the lower range and I did request a 3PT LS to give it a wider wind range. Get this ... to 11-12 mph guranteed with no wing fludder! By the way he did mention to me the new Fearless Vented was proven to fly in winds of 4-28 mph with no issues. I have flown and seen the wide wind ranges of the SDs ... I do not doubt anything from this guy. As a concluding note he asked me if I preferred a kite which could Yo-Yo easy in the mid window or double Yo-Yo as he could make the necessary adjustments to the central spine. All I said is make sure the JLs are sharp & clean within the entire wind range ... you already know his answer ...  ;).


Title: Re: Fearless SUL vs. SD SUL
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 15, 2009, 07:15 PM
Get this ... to 11-12 mph guranteed with no wing fludder! 

I only fly my SUL Tattoo in about 4mph or less. Usually a lot less. Sure it can take more but the lack of mass makes tricking less fun so I just switch to a standard once the wind picks up.

I bought it with 2pt LSs and made a set of 3pts but I never use the 3s.