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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: ko on October 29, 2009, 08:42 PM



Title: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on October 29, 2009, 08:42 PM
hi all i dont know how advanced this trick is so i will post my question (s) here. i am wondering about the proper sequence for the trick do you start with a say right hand 1/2 backspin and then right hand 1/2 lazy and then left or a series of same hand inputs and then switch?? or does this make any sense at all ?? i have been doing all these tricks separately for a while now and am finally getting around to putting them together i would like to get it right thanx KO


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: JimB on October 29, 2009, 08:59 PM
http://www.sportkiteflyer.com/Randyg_Jacobs_Ladder_Tutorial.wmv (http://www.sportkiteflyer.com/Randyg_Jacobs_Ladder_Tutorial.wmv)

Thanks to RandyG you no longer have to stumble around in the dark.

Go towards the light...


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on October 29, 2009, 09:23 PM
thanx jim i have watched that vid as well as most of the others.. as u pointed out the answer was there right in front of me DUH!!! i think what threw me is were mr.G states that he is not worried about right hand left hand sequence for the sake of the tutorial thanx again ko


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: Beachbum on October 29, 2009, 10:10 PM
Generally I think it's easier to use the same hand to start the rotation, i.e. Right pull, flip, right pull, flip, etc.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: lasapcheong on October 29, 2009, 10:12 PM
If those Sea Devils are the ones you are trying them out on, they are pretty easy for JLs.  ;)

-Darryl


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on October 29, 2009, 10:46 PM
they are fearless and yes most everything so far is easy with them the reason i posted is i am really working on keeping smooth with both left and right inputs for all that i can do and getting everything right which is not always easy when you have to depend on vids and an occasional kite party to get it right that is why i asked about proper sequence for the JL so i do appreciate all of your help thanx again KO


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: fidelio on October 29, 2009, 11:07 PM
with the trick in two halves, the half backspin, and half lazy, each half can be done with the same hand. together they make one "rung" of the ladder, so to speak. experienced fliers would notice if the "rungs" don't alternate direction but i don't think anyone pays attention to whether the two halves alternate.

it's definitely more difficult to alternate the halves, than the rungs. alternating the halves seems to interrupt the momentum of the kite, where at the completion of a rung, the kite seems to be in a neutral position, ready to continue in either direction.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: jaybett on October 30, 2009, 12:47 AM
Fearless is an easy kite to Jacob's Ladder, once you get the sequence down. Like most, if not all fliers, I wanted to do the Jacob's Ladder, before my skills were up to the task.

Two things that helped me with the Fearless was when the nose comes up into the fade, begin the Barrel Roll into the Turtle, don't allow the nose to go deep, before you do the the 1/2 Lazy.

Once you learn the sequence for the Jacob's ladder, alternating hands is not a problem.

Jay
 


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: JimB on October 30, 2009, 12:58 AM
Basically, in a textbook JL, everything alternates.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on October 31, 2009, 12:50 PM
martin has a very good 1 also the way he repeats things, i find helpful...but   it really helps to have ideas from others to wrap your brain around it.  http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/25/11D9jvckX1Y (http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/25/11D9jvckX1Y)


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: DWayne on October 31, 2009, 01:01 PM
Martin does really good tutorials. It was his video that helped me crack the Taz.


Denny


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on November 02, 2009, 07:35 PM
` jay getting the input for the 1/2 lazy before the kite got to nose deep is what was holding me back thanks to all KO


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: chrispie on December 09, 2009, 07:40 PM
During the half lazy susan, where the nose is now pointing towards you, what is the input to get it into the fade again?

Isit a long pull with slack (like how u get a fade from a flare), or is it more like a pop with slack?


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: jaybett on December 09, 2009, 11:51 PM
The input I use is the same as pulling from a flare to a fade.

Jay


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: DaveH on December 10, 2009, 07:52 AM
you don't need any slack when going from the half lazy (nose in) to the fade.  Just a smooth pull.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: mikenchico on December 10, 2009, 06:39 PM
Not to be argumentative but I think you do need some slack to allow the nose to rotate up into the fade after the first 270 degrees of rotation, not too much since you need to catch & hold the fade but if there is none you will choke the rotation off at 270* in a nose down position and preform that other well known trick, the Lawn Dart.

I'm no expert on JL's so correct me if I'm wrong, but at 270* the kite is facing you, lines on the face, without slack it won't roll but will start to fly.




Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: tpatter on December 10, 2009, 07:16 PM
I think you are right - almost a "lack of any tension" which is technically "slack".

Sort of like the difference between slack to catch a fade versus offhand slack for a multi-lazys.  In the first case, you want just enough and no more or you will not be able to catch the kite.  In second case, you can actually drop a line and you can still do it, so you can't really over-do the slack.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: DaveH on December 10, 2009, 07:18 PM
Good stuff, Mike.  ;)
I find in a flare to fade the amount of slack is kite dependent. For the half lazy inthe JL, I "unroll" under tension, and the momentum created by the pull gets the kite all the way through to the fade position without having to introduce slack.  But there are many ways to do all tricks and I'm sure yours works too.  I've just always pulled smoothly and watched the kite roatate through to the fade position.  I've never had the kite catch the wind and lawn dart at this point of the JL.  I also tend to try and do this one smoothly and haven't had any trouble catching/tending the fade.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: DaveH on December 10, 2009, 07:44 PM
Reading tpatters post, which happened at the same time as mine, maybe lack of tension is truly it.  His JLs look great, so there you go.  but to offer another option, all I've ever done is pull smoothly and its never let me down.  I guess all that really matters is that you do what you need to to get the trick to look right to you.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: tpatter on December 10, 2009, 09:34 PM
 I think you explain it well dave when you call it a smooth pull.  Lots of folks tend to try and yank it around with a big pull, which is where the lawn dart comes in!  :)   

Different kites do it differently for sure (although the basics are the same).  My Fearless can go either way - a very slow easy pull around or I can just pop it and the momentum will flip it over - usually its something in the middle.  It's much harder on the Shadow, that one likes to do them at one speed and its a managed pull all the way around.

Another thing I've noticed is how much different kites move vertically when doing the trick.  Some just flip around and can stay right in place (like the Fearless, Nirvana, SF, etc).  Others (usually higher aspect ratio) take a good deal of time to flip to the fade position and often loose height at the same time.  Those are much harder to keep "stable".

Anyhow, great combo/trick - definitely my favorite to do.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: mikenchico on December 11, 2009, 02:05 PM
Yep Dave a "Lack of tension" is what we were both looking for there, in low to normal winds the kite should be moving towards you just a bit from the nose down position through the roll onto its back creating the slack it needs. Your smooth pull then catches the fade rather then having too much "Slack" which can cause trouble catching the fade. In higher winds you may have to add some "Lack of tension" with some arm movent or a step forward.



Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: chrispie on December 15, 2009, 04:40 PM
I notice that some pilot's JL can stay in the same spot in the air, not losing altitude at all..

For me.. just one rung of it and it is already a feet off the ground (low wind, probably 1-2mph and I am flying airwave UL).. any tips? Or is it just the wind condition? I reckon that if i stay in the fade position a tad longer, it may just compensate for the altitude.. but then, the chaining effect of this trick is lost.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: ko on December 15, 2009, 04:47 PM
hi chrispie if you think it is lack of wind you will need to walk backwards although i have found that as my JL smooths out and gets more consistant i can control if the kite loses,gains or stay's in the same place at least most of the time hope this helps KO


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: tpatter on December 15, 2009, 06:50 PM
I notice that some pilot's JL can stay in the same spot in the air, not losing altitude at all..

For me.. just one rung of it and it is already a feet off the ground (low wind, probably 1-2mph and I am flying airwave UL).. any tips? Or is it just the wind condition? I reckon that if i stay in the fade position a tad longer, it may just compensate for the altitude.. but then, the chaining effect of this trick is lost.

I think it is kite-dependent.  Some kites fall pretty quickly, others can actually gain height during the JL.  Once you spend some time with a specific kite, you adjust to how it wants to do them.


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: randyg on December 15, 2009, 07:59 PM
i think what threw me is were mr.G states that he is not worried about right hand left hand sequence for the sake of the tutorial
That was because at the time I had a hard time properly alternating the rungs. I've since rectified that problem. Probably should have just left that test out of the final version.  ::)  :)


Title: Re: jacobs ladder
Post by: chrispie on January 14, 2010, 03:23 AM
i find that when i do the JL, the line always snag at the tip at the half susan. Is it a must that if im initiating the susan with my right hand, the left has to move forward a little for slack?

OFten my susan doesnt come right and turn into a fade instead! Wat am i doing wrong?

I reckon that the kite is not dipped deep enough into the turtle...