GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: fidelio on October 29, 2009, 11:20 PM



Title: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: fidelio on October 29, 2009, 11:20 PM
so is the difference between a cascading lazy susan and a cynique the position of the nose of the kite when it reverses direction?

it would appear in a cynique the nose of the kite is pointed towards you, and in a lazy cascade the nose would be pointed away.

is this true?

there's not easy info on the cynique, and not many videos.

i've not tried it yet, is it a really hard trick or something? from what i can tell it looks cool, and am wondering why more people aren't doing it?


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: fidelio on October 29, 2009, 11:28 PM
btw - if my above post was vague on the definition of the trick, from what i can tell it would be:

lazy cascade - a reversing rotational trick with the kite in a (nose away) turtle position.
cynique - a reversing rotational trick with the kite in a (nose in) turtle position.

the difference in the cynique between a nose towards you turtle position and just being a fade, is that with a fade your lines are across the leading edge, where a "nose in turtle" would have the lines underneath the kite and across the trailing edge.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: JimB on October 29, 2009, 11:40 PM
The Cynique is a type of Lazy Cascade characterized by hard, one could say violent, reversals with the kite in a nose deep position. While it is not entirely kite-dependent, it is safe to say that kites that sit nose deep and take some getting out of a backflip make it much, much easier to execute.

It can be very hard on a kite.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: JimB on October 30, 2009, 12:19 AM
Check out this video at 4:09:

Le Transfer xt.s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlEFndv_KPY#normal)

There is a freeze-frame showing just how much stress a kite is under during a Cynique, then a Five rotation Cynique that goes into a Multi-Lazy.

The Transfer series of kites is one of the easier designs to do these on. Nonetheless, check out those spreaders in the freeze-frame ??? and let's not forget the sail damage one can inflict... not for the faint of heart.

This is one of my fav vids BTW.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: kjdubuque on October 30, 2009, 09:00 AM
That freeze frame is cool shot.  I would have no idea the spreaders are getting stressed that much watching it in full speed.  I have to say those are the nicest looking multi-lazies I've seen.

Kris


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: obijuankenobe on October 30, 2009, 09:30 AM
I have not seen anyone reverse a lazy rotation with the nose toward the pilot, live or on video.

I was under the impression that the point was timing: 

If you pause between the rotation (at the time of reversal), it's just lazy-susans in opposite directions, which might be unofficially a 'lazy cascade' (multi or single rotation doesn't matter).  If you immediately reverse (usually just a few degrees before the last full rotation) without pause, it's a cynique.  The cynique doesn't pause in the turtle, whereas a lazy cascade does.  The pause essentially makes it go from 'trick' to 'trick sequence'.  It's the immediately reversal that defines the cynique for me at least.  In TP there MIGHT also be a stipulation of only one rotation per reversal, if it's even an official TP trick yet? 

I think a very similar rule has been applied to the backspin cascade.  If you pause in the fade between reversals, you are not doing a backspin cascade.  Rather, you are doing successive backspins in opposite directions. 

Oh yeah, forgot the other question.  Yeah, it's hard.  Give it a whirl.  It will make nearly every other trick in your repetoire look EASY.  Incidentially, yo-yo cyniques are 'easier' because of bridle position differences. 


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: JimB on October 30, 2009, 09:37 AM
The reason for the sudden reversal after a single rotation is that, when Cyniques first reared their ugly heads, you had to force the kite nose deep and then bang it back and forth just to get through it.

Now there are kites, like the Transfer, that are totally comfortable with reversing the spin on their backs: so much so that that the Cynique is a comparitive giveaway on them.

That wasn't always the case.

Almost any trick that reverses movement could be said to be cascading. For more rotations I suppose the term would be something like a Multi Cynique.

And it was not an official TP trick, at least in TPUSA, the last time I looked.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: fidelio on October 30, 2009, 02:28 PM
obi - check this out! (between 00:04 and 00:10) if that's not it, i don't know what it is. what do you think of that?

Entrée cynique pour une cascade de backspines (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIBl2eiDsHw#normal)

jim - you're right, that's a great video. wow that kite looks framed in rubber bands. :P
so what you're talking about is what we see in this video, a pretty straight forward lazy cascade with a snubbed nose if you will.

Cascades de cyniques cv Diablis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jn84G0lRX1Q#normal)

thanks for trying to help me figure this out. it's the top video which has added to my confusion as to what the trick is.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: 711jrp on October 30, 2009, 02:52 PM
obi - check this out! (between 00:04 and 00:10) if that's not it, i don't know what it is. what do you think of that?

Entrée cynique pour une cascade de backspines ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIBl2eiDsHw#normal[/url])


I'm not Obi but thats a shove it folowed by a backspin cascade.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: jaybett on October 30, 2009, 04:12 PM
A local flier, who will go all out in trying a step of a trick, to see what happens. If it leads to a broken spar, then that is the price. He has had many of those heavy sounding crashes, where everybody on the field, looks to see if the kite is still in one piece. Usually all he has to do, is put the top spreader back in, and he is off.

After he got his Fearless, he became interested in learning the Cynique. I asked him a short time later how was the Cynique coming along? He had stopped doing the trick, because he thought it was too hard on the kite!

Jay


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: fidelio on October 30, 2009, 04:45 PM
I'm not Obi but thats a shove it folowed by a backspin cascade.
ahhh, i see it now. for some reason my brain was putting the lines under the kite instead of over it.


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: portley777 on October 30, 2009, 04:53 PM
Nothing like a raunchy XTS video to start the day off ;)

Cheers,
Mike


Title: Re: cynique & lazy cascade tricks
Post by: JimB on November 01, 2009, 01:08 AM
I just noticed there is a rolled up Cynique starting at about 7:28 in that Transfer vid...