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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: tommymcmillan on March 16, 2009, 04:44 AM



Title: flic- flacs
Post by: tommymcmillan on March 16, 2009, 04:44 AM
When practicing my flic flacs on the Silver fox 2.5 . They become unstable after the 3rd-4th one,what I mean is that the kite starts to angle left or right as i'm doing them. Why is this what going on?


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 16, 2009, 06:39 AM
A couple things that are probably obvious....

1.  Be sure you are in the center of the window.  Otherwise, the kite will tend to shift off center just because of the angle of the wind.

2.  Be sure you tug it out of the flare EVENLY with both hands.  Even a slight imbalance can give you an off balance flare, which then leads back to an off balance fade.

Learning how this can be used to your advantage will help with backspins, backspin cascades...and the ever-popular duplex.

obi


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: JimB on March 16, 2009, 08:26 AM
Keep your hands close together, if not touching, as much as possible when doing flic flacs.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Dolphinboy on March 16, 2009, 08:42 AM
I agree with both of the above.. +:

It is most likely you're hitting it a bit unevenly. Try changing the intensity or sharpness of the inputs.  Different kites and wind conditions take different inputs. It may be easier to be even with sharper or more gradual inputs.

Also, if the winds real bumpy it can be tough to keep any trick going after a few.

I love the Flic-Flac. It was one of the first cool looking tricks I learned.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: spence602 on March 16, 2009, 09:08 AM
Keep your hands close together, if not touching, as much as possible when doing flic flacs.
If you keep your hands together, you'll have to bring both hands in towards your stomach.
If you lower your hands you'll cause yourself pain.  ::)

Once the muscle memory develops and you can keep the kite even, then you can separate them towards the outside.  You'll also know what slight inputs are needed to keep it stable.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: kiten00b on March 16, 2009, 09:55 AM
Kites usually do what you and/or the wind tell them to do.
You may not mean to be telling it to angle off, but if your flares are uneven, you are telling it to angle off. ;)


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Allen Carter on March 16, 2009, 12:44 PM
My regular flick flacks get unstable all the time, but I'm getting better at correcting them by pulling more with one side as needed.

For really clean flick flacks, try this:

Get the kite into a stable fade.

Grab both straps in one hand and pull and release and pull and release and pull...

Not practical all the time, but the flick flacks can look really, really nice.

Works best in very clean wind, in the middle of the window.

Our pal Shane flew one handed by necessity and did some really cool stuff.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: DaveH on March 16, 2009, 03:05 PM
good point, Allen.  I like the comment about correcting constantly to keep things lined up.  Good stuff.   we all need to work on that.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: randyg on March 16, 2009, 03:33 PM
Simply put, it'll come with practice.

I can't imagine trying to do Flic Flac's with my hand together. I sweep my hands at my side.

Of course, YMMV.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: ko on March 16, 2009, 03:47 PM
thanx for that randy !! with my hands together i got uncomfortably close to a sensitive area..  maybe its the kite but i need to sweep my hands back also


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2009, 04:39 PM
thanx for that randy !! with my hands together i got uncomfortably close to a sensitive area..  maybe its the kite but i need to sweep my hands back also

As you get older you'll find that muscle memory really does come into play ??? I don't believe I've come close to hitting myself in that sensitive region,  in let's say, thirty or more years.  However one word of caution.........never stand within three feet directly behind a dual line flyer.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: EBGB on March 16, 2009, 07:16 PM
When you pancake a kite, the only leg of the bridle that's doing anything is the uphaul.
So your lines are suddenly attached to the kite very close to each other. A small movement on a short "arm" makes for a larger movement of the kite.

It'll come with practice (as others have said), it's just touchier than it might seem.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 17, 2009, 12:39 AM
When you pancake a kite, the only leg of the bridle that's doing anything is the uphaul.
So your lines are suddenly attached to the kite very close to each other. A small movement on a short "arm" makes for a larger movement of the kite.

It'll come with practice (as others have said), it's just touchier than it might seem.

Very insightful...something I hadn't fully seen till you posted.   8)

obi


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: jaydub on March 17, 2009, 05:55 AM
When you pancake a kite, the only leg of the bridle that's doing anything is the uphaul.
So your lines are suddenly attached to the kite very close to each other. A small movement on a short "arm" makes for a larger movement of the kite.

It'll come with practice (as others have said), it's just touchier than it might seem.

Very insightful...something I hadn't fully seen till you posted.   8)

obi
Nor me.  It certainly helps explain why I have such problems with consistent flic flacs.  :-\


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: randyg on March 17, 2009, 06:19 AM
And too one can over-think this stuff. I've been guilty from time to time. ::) ???


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: DaveH on March 19, 2009, 08:01 AM
something that hasen't been mentioned is the entry. If the vertical dive is truly vertical the wings will enter the trick level.  If not its out of shape right out of the gate..  This is a good case for longer lines when learning this trick.  Gives you more time to line things up.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Will Sturdy on March 19, 2009, 09:58 AM
Because winds are never steady (at least wherever I've flown >:( ) it is really hard to get them to go for long without corrective measures.
A straight entry and keeping your lines perfectly even does help a lot. To get more than just a few repetitions, you will need to figure out how to right it when it becomes a bit skewed. This is done by really small movements throughout. It is really hard for me to explain, maybe someone else can explain this better.
I recommend just experimenting with location, direction, and intensity of corrective input. Eventually you will figure it out. Figuring out how to do this sort of thing is half the fun  :)


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: EBGB on March 19, 2009, 12:41 PM
For fun, go the wrong way on purpose and see what happens.
By making your adjustments so that each repetition makes it lean further to one direction, you can get to where you're doing a flic-flac sideways.
The kite will drop pretty fast, since there's very little lifting surface left when it gets to 90 degrees, but it's kind of trippy looking.
Exiting with a sideways 540 is one of those "what the heck was that?" moments.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Tom P on March 22, 2009, 12:59 AM

 ::)

Here's an important tip:

If someone gives you a lot of flac... just flic it.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: ko on March 24, 2009, 04:41 PM
tried the 1 handed approach with my most stable kite the QP sul a little rough going but helped my entry and over correcting thanx KO


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: benjai on March 24, 2009, 04:57 PM
It was mentioned above, but if your flic-flacs are consistently going off to the same side, check your line lengths. I did a few months ago after trying to get flic-flacs for a little while and found them an inch out. It was much easier after I corrected this. My flic-flacs still go off all over the place, so both my lines must be the wrong length  ;)

Something else I read or saw somewhere on correction, is to try to get the spine vertical between the fade and the flare - maybe it's more instinctive to correct through this position, as the kite is effectively in flying position (albeit nose down).

HTH


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: JeffD on March 25, 2009, 02:50 AM
I think sideways flic flacs are far cooler.

My biggest problem with ff's is I forget about doing them. Once in a while I  think "oh yeah I should flic ... oh screw it".

But now that I've been reminded about the sideways ones maybe I'll remember next time.

Thanks.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: John Welden on April 14, 2009, 08:08 PM
Here on some tips for flic flacs.

1. Don't practice with bad technique or in crap winds and end up training your brain to not do them well. This goes for all tricks. 

2. Relax

3. Practice in the lightest winds you can manage to fly in.

4. Break the trick down and practice the individual elements.

A. Get good at fades.  Lay your kite nose away, face down. GENTLY and I mean gently pull back and pull the kite into a fade.  No popping, No snapping, no forcefulness.  See how lightly you can do it and more up to more aggressive. This is the exact same move you're going to be doing in the air to pull the kite from nose away into a fade.  Nice and gentle, nice and smooth.  Relax.


B. Practice down wind glides until you think you're good and then practice more. Developing good nose away control is key for flic flacs and many other tricks.  Trust me on this one.  Seems so simple and everyone thinks they can do it but can't really. 

If you can control your kite nose away, you can pull it into a fade without panicking or using too much force.

Avoid letting the kite go too nose high when you flare (nose away) Fly into the flare, don't bang into it.  Decelerate into a nice clean nose away position. 

Gently pull into the fade just like you practiced on the ground. Exact same move.  If you go smooth and gentle, the kite won't bang into the lines and get out of control in the fade. 

One of the most key elements, especially in light winds is to let the nose rise in the fade before letting it out into the flare.  Remember, up to go down.  There doesn't need to be any popping nonsense or running around.

Start out with minimal inputs and work up to ultra aggressive not the other away around. 


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: WinterDaze on April 15, 2009, 06:03 PM
Sounds like some good info here, now just have to wait for the wind to stetle down a bit. Thanks JW


WD


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: asburyparkjohn on April 22, 2009, 06:36 PM
When I was first learning them the one tip I got that really helped was:



Set the fade before you continue, then flic out, set the fade, then flic out, etc.  by hoding the fade you can get some rise which helps, what happens with flic/flacs near the ground unless in you are in very low winds ... OOOUUUCCCHHH.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: chrispie on November 03, 2009, 06:08 AM
Since this thread is about FlicFlac, I would like to ask about the Fade..

So far i can get into a fade from the ground, the the kite nose away, belly down; or from a flare into a fade.. and here is the problem...

Once the kite goes into the fade (kite already horizontal), often than not it suddenly dives down into the ground and not maintaining the fade position. What am i doing wrong? Am i giving it too much tension too prematurely?


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: obijuankenobe on November 03, 2009, 06:40 AM
The holding of a fade is what often separates the good ones from the hacks.  It's difficult for everyone at first.

Simple rules, but harder to impliment in the beginning:

1.  Nose falls, give even slack.
2.  Nose rises, give tension.

As you maintain the fade, the closer these values +/- remain to zero (neither tension nor slack), the better.  Holding the fade is an ULTRA subtle art.  When you get better, play with uneven slack and tension to see how the fade responds, and what possibilities this opens (like initiating backspins, for example). 

That being said, another good place to put some of your practice energy is into the 'fractured axel to fade' manuever.  Getting to the fade from a flare is a first step, but in the end, pretty useless once you master the FAtoF.

obi 


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 03, 2009, 10:42 AM
If the kite is suddenly powering up out of a Fade you have too much tension on the lines. Holding a Fade, especially in uneven winds, requires lots of adjustments. Don't get too aggressive adjusting while in the Fade, be gentle / smooth with the inputs and watch the kite.

In smooth wind many kites will just sit there as long as you like.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: JimB on November 03, 2009, 11:00 AM
Flying in a fade for any length of time requires the pilot to work on their reverse flying skills. Left is right and right is left.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: fidelio on November 03, 2009, 05:03 PM
and bumpy winds make holding a fade for any great length of tmie much more difficult.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: chrispie on November 03, 2009, 10:50 PM
If the kite is flown at an angle to the wind, does it makes a difference? I reckon the wind pressure differences on both wings will make holding the fade much harder.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: fidelio on November 03, 2009, 11:02 PM
in my own experience a kite in a fade towards the side of the window will always drift toward the center.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: tpatter on November 03, 2009, 11:19 PM
in my own experience a kite in a fade towards the side of the window will always drift toward the center.

If you hold your hands at an offset, I think that you can prevent the kite from drifting to the center (outside hand more forward than inside hand).  Not that I recall intentionally doing this, but I think it would work.


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: Kantaxel on November 04, 2009, 12:41 AM
Actually I believe it would be just the opposite Tom...........The outside hand would be just a tad back to point the nose more into the wind.......... :-\

Jim


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: benjai on November 04, 2009, 12:45 AM
In the centre, you want to keep the spin pointing straight into the wond, otherwise the two wongs have uneven lift and the kite rolls. Of course, to correct this, you tension one line to make the spin point across the wind, giving more lift to the wing that is low, and it rolls back to flat... If you are off-centre in the window, you still need to keep the spin pointing straight into the wind but this means that the spine is not pointing staight at you (the pilot). So in the right side of the window the spine points to your right...

HTH


Title: Re: flic- flacs
Post by: fidelio on November 04, 2009, 03:25 AM
sounds like it's time for me to practice. anyone have any wind? :'(