GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: ko on December 03, 2009, 06:01 PM



Title: cascade
Post by: ko on December 03, 2009, 06:01 PM
hi all i am having a great time now with the JL and and combinations thereof any way i CANNOT seem to get the inputs for the cascade. i have watched randy and martins vids and have what i think is a really smooth 1/2 axle   any help?? thanx KO ps fearlesses


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Jared on December 03, 2009, 06:03 PM
Foot movement is important; in all but the lightest winds, you'll need to walk forward as you do your cascade.

It seems like every kite is different, some can do a cascade with two inputs, others need three.  If you've got a Quantum Pro available, it's one of the best kites on which to learn the cascade.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: tpatter on December 03, 2009, 09:58 PM
Call me crazy, but I find that I do them best if I move my head with the kite as it moves (center, cocked right, stop, center, cocked left, stop, center, ....).

Thinking about the movements in this way helps he to get the inputs right.  For my money, 3 inputs is the way to go.  lift, stop, pop, lift, stop, pop, etc.


Just keep at it, it will come.  Once you get it, you will wonder why it took so long!  (I did).  If you can watch someone else do it (their hands), that really helps.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: rxburner on December 03, 2009, 10:27 PM
Get rid of the idea that it has anything to do with the 1/2 Axel. A kite like the E2 will "One Pop" and is a good place to start. Your Fearless kites like "Two Pops" and it is very rhythmic.
As with any trick, the key for me is visualization. Once I can see the trick in my minds eye, laying in bed at night, it becomes so much easier to make it happen in broad daylight.
Rx



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: anOldMan on December 04, 2009, 01:46 AM
Ko, First relax. The cascade is one of those tricks that will just happen and can't be forced. Jared is correct about the Q-Pro being a good kite to learn the cascade. The kite performs the trick very slowly and you can see and anticipate each input. If you do have a fearless kite, it will do the same think but you  will be able to speed the inputs up when  you the rhythm.

For the one pop cascade, as Rxburned said, the E2 and the Deep Space work very well. Just make sure that the nose of the kite is above level when you pop the kite.

Again, just relax and the trick will happen. Then you will start doing the cascade when you want to think about what to do next. ;)


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 04, 2009, 05:43 AM


Quote
Again, just relax and the trick will happen. Then you will start doing the cascade when you want to think about what to do next. ;)
i am looking foward to this. i am trying to hard and that for me turns to frustration. but if flying was easy IMO it wouldnt be worth doing thank you all for the advice (i'll sleep on it)i will let you kmow thanx again KO


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Jared on December 04, 2009, 05:49 AM


Quote
Again, just relax and the trick will happen. Then you will start doing the cascade when you want to think about what to do next. ;)
i am looking foward to this. i am trying to hard and that for me turns to frustration. but if flying was easy IMO it wouldnt be worth doing thank you all for the advice (i'll sleep on it)i will let you kmow thanx again KO

anOldMan is right, I neglected to mention how long I was struggling with the cascade myself.  The important thing is not to get burned out on trying; flying is supposed to be fun :)



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 04, 2009, 05:52 AM
+1


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: DaveH on December 04, 2009, 06:58 AM
My cascade is still a mess and very inconsistent. When it does work, however, it is because of some of the tips mentioned here.

Jerad mentioned foot work with is key to so much.  It gives you more control over windspeed and slack management. Guys who let their feet grow roots are giving up a lot.

The lift as tpatters talks about is really what helped me to relax a bit.  Using the lift input takes some of the pressure off the initial input, meaning that input isn't required to get the kite all the way around in position for the next input, if that makes any sense.  Once I knew this I could slow down and wait for it.  Just let it happen, as Anoldman said.  As I said I'm a long way from having it down.  But as I make progress, I find kites like the Nirvana and QP much easier to get that flow going. They seem to stay put and behave.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: DWayne on December 04, 2009, 07:46 AM
Get rid of the idea that it has anything to do with the 1/2 Axel.

You care to elaborate? I can't see it as anything but reversing half axels.

Denny


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: tpatter on December 04, 2009, 10:08 AM
Cool tips - I think its only necessary to walk forward if you want the kite to drop.  You can do the cascade in pretty high wind and just stand there - they just won't drop (perhaps this is technically not a cascade?).   

We get pretty low winds here, but I am often walking backwards in order to get more sail pressure so that I can do them faster.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: anOldMan on December 04, 2009, 10:26 AM
Tis may sound stupid but here goes.

Start in a flare position.
pull a little with your right hand to get the left wing up and the nose facing left.
Now pop the right hand to pull the top wing to putting the kite into a flare position.
Now repeat with the right left hand.

You have just performed a cascade. :)

The cascade is a cycle of kite moves:
  • kite in flying position facing right or left,
  • flare, kite goes to a flare position,
  • kite goes to a flying position facing in the opposite direction,
  • kite goes to a flare position.


These moves continue as the kite is loosing altitude. (Or start in the flare position and repeat the change of positions.)

What Rxburner was saying is the Cascade is not a true half axel but point right ,flare, point left, flare, etc. or start at the flare... ;)

The cascade is sometimes taught this way.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: jaydub on December 04, 2009, 11:00 AM
The cascade is sometimes taught this way.

And it was this this emphasis on the achieving the flare each time that made the cascade suddenly click with me.

I found it difficult to get out the habit of accelerating the kite out of a HA, until somebody explained it this way to me.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: rxburner on December 04, 2009, 12:42 PM
The trick may be 2 half axels when you look at it, but the inputs are very different. If you just try to link the half axels you will never get it. The Cascade has it's own inputs and feel. So I say again, "Put the Half Axels out of your mind" when trying to learn the Cascade......
Once you learn it, you can blend the 2 tricks with a nice effect.
Just My Humble Opinon
Rx


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: tpatter on December 04, 2009, 12:48 PM
I agree - its for sure got its own feel.  Having said that, if you can do a solid half-axel, I think that you can pick up the cascade very easily.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 04, 2009, 05:28 PM
thanx  all! i am going to take AOM's explanation and some patience,throw in a little footwork get the 1/2axle out of my head and "wait for it" at the beach this weekend no matter what i will have a great time ps almost forgot i will be visualizing the trick tonight unless my girlfriend has other ideas


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 08, 2009, 05:38 PM
great help guys. i am now the proud owner of the cascade a very ugly cascade but with a little more work i will clean it up thanx again cuz there will be more KO


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Jared on December 08, 2009, 07:13 PM
great help guys. i am now the proud owner of the cascade a very ugly cascade but with a little more work i will clean it up thanx again cus there will be more KO

It only gets better from here, KO :)


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: lylenc on December 08, 2009, 08:19 PM
It may have mentioned previously, my apologies if I'm repeating.

The cascade helps with ground recovery when flying at the low end of your kite's wind range. Practice holding the kite momentarily in the flare position before doing the next wing lift of the cascade. You can re-gain a step or two each time the kite flares. It's similar to a flare glide from the top of the window for ground recovery, only on a smaller scale.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: mikenchico on December 09, 2009, 01:47 PM
Glad you got it working. The cascade is a trick that just gave itself to me one day, I'm no master of it yet but like said above once you have the rythm down it becomes a rest move. I have my own idiosyncrasies when doing them but that's how they first appeared.

I swing my arms, down then up, the initiating pull at the bottom, the second input happens when I swing my arm up. It makes sense to me, your pulling the top wing down to get the flare, then lifting it to bring the kite back. then do the same with the opposite hand. That's the rythm, now find the walk speed which is dependent on the wind speed, sometimes backwards.

After the axel the cascade was the most gratifying to learn.



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: chrispie on December 09, 2009, 04:33 PM
So in conclusion, am i right to say the cascade is a 2 input trick on each side?

Kite in flare now;

1 - small pop on left hand to make nose face right
2 - big pop on right hand to flare it.

1 - small pop on right hand to make nose face left
2 - big pop on left to flare it once more.

and on and on and on....


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Steve on December 10, 2009, 09:33 AM
I spent 9 month working on that trick and then one day it just happened.  Got it figured out pretty good now.

http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075 (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075)

Get a clear picture of what the kite is supposed to be doing and then develop your method from there.  I found the trick to be all about the timing and it varies in different wind conditions and from kite to kite.  Some require the 2 pop method to get a crisp cascade others like just one pop.  What helped me was to take the one kite I semmed to be getting closest to success with and only work with that kite.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 10, 2009, 08:07 PM
great stuff steve!! the muse looks fantastic and your no slouch either  thanx KO


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: benjai on December 11, 2009, 01:42 AM
Not quite - you've got the hands mixed up if you are starting from a flare... The first input lifts the wing (and ideally places it back a bit, ready for the second input - to the same wing... I've fixed this in the quote below...
So in conclusion, am i right to say the cascade is a 2 input trick on each side?

Kite in flare now;

1 - small pop on left hand to make nose face right
2 - big pop on left hand to flare it.

1 - small pop on right hand to make nose face left
2 - big pop on right to flare it once more.

and on and on and on....


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: benjai on December 11, 2009, 01:45 AM
Oh, and another thing to note - and it's been mentioned already in this thread, is that you often have to walk downwind to keep a cascade going. Perfect example is Steve's video - see how much ground was lost...
[url]http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075[/url] ([url]http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075[/url])



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: chrispie on December 11, 2009, 02:05 AM
Thanks Benjai.. will try it tmr... :D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 11, 2009, 09:41 AM
hello chrispie take another look at an old mans reply #11 (i took it to the beach with me) he doesnt give inputs. this allowed me to visualize what the kite should be doing i already have the skills to get it there i just COULDNT put it together still gotta ways to go but it is a great trick  hope this helps KO


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Jimmer on December 11, 2009, 02:49 PM
I still haven't been able to do cascades yet, but here is a great vid from J.R.'s youtube site.   Starting at about 1 minute he does 94 cascades!  They are fast and slow, and low and high.  Talk about locking in muscle memory! ::)
http://www.youtube.com/user/jesperrdk#p/u/10/hX5MI7GvaZQ (http://www.youtube.com/user/jesperrdk#p/u/10/hX5MI7GvaZQ)

Wish the winds and temps would cooperate around here so I could go out and practice! :'(
Jim


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: chrispie on December 12, 2009, 06:44 AM
hello chrispie take another look at an old mans reply #11 (i took it to the beach with me) he doesnt give inputs. this allowed me to visualize what the kite should be doing i already have the skills to get it there i just COULDNT put it together still gotta ways to go but it is a great trick  hope this helps KO

hmm.. after reading.. im confused.. what he said is opp to what Benjai preached!

I was trying out today with my Genesis (Eolo, my very first trick kite) and that kite being small, only needs one input to make it face left and right with interjected flares in between... (cant fly the aiwave due to heavy wind)...

When the Widowmaker arrives.. sure going to be Very very different...


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: chrispie on December 12, 2009, 06:54 AM
I still haven't been able to do cascades yet, but here is a great vid from J.R.'s youtube site.   Starting at about 1 minute he does 94 cascades!  They are fast and slow, and low and high.  Talk about locking in muscle memory! ::)
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/jesperrdk#p/u/10/hX5MI7GvaZQ[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/user/jesperrdk#p/u/10/hX5MI7GvaZQ[/url])

Wish the winds and temps would cooperate around here so I could go out and practice! :'(
Jim


agree,,, mama74 is really good.. and his control of fades are just great.. i always find it a challeng to sustain a fade... not that hard to get a fade.. but really tough to make it stay there.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: chrispie on December 13, 2009, 04:45 AM
ok.. just an update..

Today tried Benjai's method with a Quantum Pro and it worked like a charm. Did my first cascade!!  :D :D :D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: mikenchico on December 13, 2009, 10:04 AM
Those are some nice cascade's in JR's vid, notice how the kite starts and ends each rotation almost perfectly horizontal on both sides. Something I struggle with.

An old terminology lessen? A Cascade properly falls through the center of the window, Tricks Party definition

Quote
"The CASCADE is a series of reversing, descending HALF AXELS. The trick is entered from a horizontal line of flight, nose pointing straight right (3:00) or straight left (9:00).With each HALF AXEL, the kite alternates between the 3:00 and 9:00 positions, ideally pausing a moment in each position before the next reversing HALF AXEL. The kite must descend through the window, and the sequence must contain at least three HALF AXELS. Ideally this trick is initiated at the top of the window and descends all the way to the bottom, and the kite exits in a straight line, in the direction that the nose pointed last.

KEY ELEMENTS: ►Horizontal entry. ►Minimum 3 HALF AXELS. ►Straight-line descent. ►Constant speed."

When the kite remains at a constant height or rises the trick was called a Fountain, Up the Fountain, or Rising Cascade - from Pete  Peters

Quote
"Fountain/Up the Fountain/Rising Cascade

This is a series of Half Axels like the Cascade but this one does not lose altitude like the Cascade, but actually stays stationary and/or rises up! This one is a combination of the Half Axels series (Cascades) along with a "pop up" move. The easiest way to learn this one is to practice the Cascade a lot. You will soon learn that in between Half Axels (Cascades) you give the rotating wing a slight "pop" with an arm motion that goes from neutral up and out, which helps it along and actually pulls that wing up, similar to the pop up move from a Pancaked position. You will find that timing and adjusting that according to wind speed is very crucial. This "pop up" move is also similar to the one used in the Continuous Axel."

Keep it up, but don't get frustrated trying to do just the one thing, do the things you can do to keep it fun. Do a lot of half axels to keep that feeling active. It will just happen one day since it's such a rhythm based trick, but when it isn't working don't train your muscles to the wrong rhythm, take a break, have some fun, then go back.



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: benjai on December 13, 2009, 04:22 PM
ok.. just an update..

Today tried Benjai's method with a Quantum Pro and it worked like a charm. Did my first cascade!!  :D :D :D
;D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: lylenc on December 17, 2009, 05:53 PM
I learned the cascade on a Gemini, which only required one pop on each side. I had a little difficulty switching to the two-pop method for other kites - JimB gave me the answers I needed to make the two-pop method work.

I think it would have been better for me to have started with the two-pop method when learning the cascade. The two-pop method gives you more versatility, even if you don't need two pops for a kite. For example, you can throw more forceful flares during the cascade to recover ground position a step or two at a time.


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 17, 2009, 09:59 PM
jim, if you would please throw in a little help we would appreciate it. i might be persuaded into removing the post of my backyard if you will  thanx ko  ;D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: Dolphinboy on December 18, 2009, 11:29 AM
I also originally learned the Cascade on a kite that did one pop cascades. That didn't transfer to other kites well and I struggled for a long time before I mastered the Cascade.

Think about the inputs before hand. It's one of those tricks that you need to watch & react and not think or you'll be behind.

You can try doing reversing 1/2 Axels and shorten the space up between them until you eliminate it altogether.

Try to get your hands on a kite that two input Cascades easy (Mantis, Widow Maker UL, Sea Devil etc) Although once you learn it, you'll Cascade just about any kite, some are just much easier to Cascade. Super pitchy kites can get away from you at first.

Avoid the one pop method until you've got the two input Cascade down.

An UL may help slow it down & help you keep up.

Of course, flying with someone that knows the trick would be a HUGE benefit.

And then time will slow down. Once you feel it and see it, it's like the time to react just slows down as you watch the kite move thru the Cascade. Then you've got it.



Title: Re: cascade
Post by: tpatter on December 18, 2009, 12:09 PM
good advice.  Much of the initial success depends on the kite and flyer combination.

My son picked them up pretty quickly on the QPro - that kite loves to cascade.  I struggled with them until I finally got them on my Shadow - nice and slow ones initially.  Once you get the feel and timing of it, its easy to transfer to just about any kite.




Title: Re: cascade
Post by: JimB on December 18, 2009, 09:53 PM
Oh.

Me?


Okay.

Let me go back through the thread and see where we are...




jim, if you would please throw in a little help we would appreciate it. i might be persuaded into removing the post of my backyard if you will  thanx ko  ;D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: JimB on December 18, 2009, 11:34 PM
First of all:

A lot of good info in this thread.

Second:

Forgive me if I repeat a lot of what has already been written.

I will try to go through it with a slightly different take.

Definitions.. just so we are clear:

A cascade is descending by definition. Having said that, there are varieties.

Stationary cascade (puddle)

Rising cascade (fountain)

NB - do not use the term "Up The Fountain", otherwise mr. zipman will seek you out wherever you are and beat you with whatever kite you happen to be flying at the time. I will pay him to do it. And pay his air fare. Just don't.  >:( ;)

Once you learn the basic drill you will, through very simple adjustments, be able to do any of the Three types so, for now, just put it out of your mind.

Here's what it looks like:

>-<

Start off nose facing right.

Then you are going to put the kite into a pancake nose away.

Then you are going to stand the kite back up with the nose facing left.

Then repeat, etc..

One of the ways to practice this is to start in a tip stand (yes, that's right on the ground), lay the kite belly down with the nose directly away from you, and then pop the kite back up onto the opposite tip.

This will not get you the perfect cascade. It probably wont even look very good. What it will do is give you an idea of the range of motion the particular kite you fly needs in order to complete a cascade.

Just to be clear: even if it looks like crap; even if you only get part way through, it will help you to get in the ball park as far as how much slack to give for the pancake, how big an input is needed to stand the kite back up, etc.. oh just humor me. It'll help even if you only do it a couple of times. Mainly it saves you having to worry about flying the kite while you are getting an idea..

Kite in the air:

Nose facing right - pop the upper wing with your left hand - give slack with both hands to lay the kite down in the pancake nose away - pop the right hand and take up slack with the left hand to stand the kite back up facing left - pop the RIGHT hand and give slack with both hands to lay the kite back down in the pancake - pop the left hand and take up slack with the right hand to stand the kite back up facing right - pop the LEFT hand and give slack with both hands to lay the kite back into the pancake position...

did you get that?

>Left - Right < RIGHT - Left > LEFT - Right < RIGHT - Left > LEFT -   

Some blather on slack:

You often hear the Phrase "fly the lines not the kite" and it's good advice as far as it goes. The problem with "fly the lines not the kite" is it doesn't, in fact, take into account the kite you are flying.

The kite you are flying has everything to do with how you go about "flying the lines".

One of the biggest failure points for tricks in general is not observing what the kite needs in order to complete a move. They are all different. Some need to be tricked slow, some fast. Some need a lot of slack, some don't. Figure it out.

Take it easy. Relax. Observe what happens. Don't be in a rush to give the next input. Let the move develop. If it over rotates, "over-develops", well then fine. Now you know. "Oops, that went too far" You will never know what is too far unless you go there. Go there, then back off.

A long winded way of saying your kite may not need slack with both hands for the pancake, it may not need any extra slack at all, it may develop tons of slack on its very own... and the same with the other elements of the cascade. IOW, it will vary.

And a long winded way of saying you need to move or not move as dictated by the wind, the kite you are flying, how tall you are, how short you are, your strengths and weaknesses as a flier... it all figures in.

A word or Two on the variations:

Cascade.. To descend, it may only require that you move in on the kite, or cascade more slowly. A generally sure fire descent can be had by pancaking with the nose down to some degree.

Puddle.. Again movement can be your friend, when going for that stationary cascade, but so can making sure you are going truly flat in the pancake.

Fountain.. Rising cascades work best if you allow the nose to go high in the pancake. Also, rhythm and emphasis, on the inputs, different for different kites, will help you to get the cascade to rise.

Maybe a bit over the top.. anyway.

HTH


           


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: benjai on December 19, 2009, 01:03 AM
Lots of good stuff here. I'll just add something abotu one-pop vs two-pop cascades, and in doing so echo something Jim said above.
The cascade is a rhythm trick - so the biggest advance you can make is to actually do a cascade, even if it's only got two half-axels, and is scruffy as hell. Then you can refine it. So, I fully agree that the two-pop technique is more universal, but if finding a one-pop kite means you "get it", then I'd say that was better than struggling on with a kite that needs a two-pop technique.
I learnt the cascade on a DS, a kite which only needs a one-pop technique. However, I quickly found that it  was much harder to keep the cascade undercontrol usign this method, and that using a two pop allows you more opportunity for corrections.
Jim also makes a good point about practicing on the ground - coin tosses are similar to the cascade. If you can cascade coin tosses, just do them in the air and voila - a cascade...


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: JimB on December 19, 2009, 01:18 AM
That is so funny.

I was going to end with, "Or just get a Gem and sling it to and fro".

That kite puts in the flare and stand-it-back-up all on its own.

All you have to do is pop the lines.

 :D


Title: Re: cascade
Post by: ko on December 19, 2009, 10:11 AM
thanx again all ..jim it has never snowed in hermosa but it is today ;D thank you ko