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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: chrispie on February 14, 2010, 12:04 AM



Title: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 14, 2010, 12:04 AM
Hi all,

I would like to know what is the best way to get into a fade especially in high wind.

Currently, on normal conditions, i have no problem getting into a fade from a flare, and getting into a fade by spinnning the kite, follow by a half axel input and pop one hand hard enough..

Any other ways?


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: anOldMan on February 14, 2010, 12:58 AM
Two possibilities exist in ground take-offs:

The ade launch - Kite is on the ground in a pancake position (on it belly with nose pointing away from you), give a pull on both lines and the kite will go into a fade.

The nose launch - kite in the center of the wind window on its nose, pull with both hands until the tail of the kite is pointing towards you, give the kite a sharp two handed pop and then slack. The kite will pop into the air and into a fade position.



Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Allen Carter on February 14, 2010, 08:01 AM
Holding a fade for any length of time in high wind can be difficult. Pancake to fade is probably easier in strong wind. You'll have to be moving forward to hold the kite in a fade. It can be tough to move fast enough while keeping your hands steady.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: lasapcheong on February 14, 2010, 08:38 AM
Chris,

One way to get into a fade easier in high wind is to do a snap lazy, followed by a half lazy rotation before flipping into the fade (ala the half lazy flip back to fade move in a Jacob's Ladder).

If you haven't started learning the snap lazy or rolling susan yet, its a good idea to learn that first as those tricks are a bit easier in higher wind. Once you get the feel for it, incorporate the input for the half lazy rotation before flipping into the fade.

Another suggestion I would say is that do it with the dominant hand first to learn it, if you find yourself stronger with one hand than the other. For me I'm right handed and certain tricks (snap lazy for example) I find that I can do it better with a higher success rate with my rate hand than my left.

Once you manage to get into a fade in high wind, what I would suggest is not to aim to hold it indefinitely since the inland wind we have here sometimes can make it next to impossible. What I would go for is to maybe hold the fade for a few seconds, then learn how to exit it properly (half backspin into flying position or just to pull and fly down). IMHO that is more important than learning to hold a fade in next to impossible winds.

-Darryl


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 14, 2010, 07:13 PM
Hi Lasap, :D

Yes, i am working on the jacobs ladder and is able to get into the fade from the half lazy...

Reason why i ask about the fade is that i realize so many tricks can be started off once you are in the fade position. Examples are the JL, backspin, where also many times it is easier to do a roll up by getting into the fade first and then half barrel (as compared to RAndy's roll up method, almost impossible for me in high wind).

My key prob is getting into a fade consistently. It is easy to get a fade in 5-8mph range.. but once it hits double digit wind, it is so darn tough, but yet i can see ken popping the kite into the fade without moving his feet.   ???

I was watching Randy's tutorial on the Comet, and his first input, popping the kite while the kite is going up, is able to put the kite in a nose away position (perfect setup for a fade?), and i reckon it is easy to do that in high wind, so is that a possibility?

So I was just wondering what ways are possible to get the fade in high gusty wind. I am not trying to hold the fade, just into the position so i can kick off other tricks.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Carlton on February 14, 2010, 08:22 PM
Definitely as anOldman said, fade launch....


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Adicakes on February 14, 2010, 09:00 PM
I was watching Randy's tutorial on the Comet, and his first input, popping the kite while the kite is going up, is able to put the kite in a nose away position (perfect setup for a fade?), and i reckon it is easy to do that in high wind, so is that a possibility?

Yes, absolutely - what's happening there is essentially a half-axel which you can tuck under into a fade.  Like a lot of half-axel stuff, you can do it from any starting direction, but in high winds your best bet is probably flying upwards, somewhere in the high centre of the window.  A nice little sequence is to fly up, enter a fade from half-axel, over-rotate a flare to wrap the kite up, fly downwards, then 540-to-unwrap.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Dolphinboy on February 14, 2010, 09:39 PM
The more you fly, you'll see you can pull the kite into a fade from many different tricks when the kite flares out. Slots, Axel, 1/2 Axel, Taz, Cascade etc. just pull it to the Fade position. In high winds be careful the kite can come out of the Fade full speed ahead which is straight down.  Like previously mentioned, the 1/2 Lazy pulled under to Fade is a fun good looking entry.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: obijuankenobe on February 15, 2010, 02:18 AM
Sorry if I missed where it's been said in this thread, but in high winds, Pancake to Fade is useless IMHO. 

You need to learn the 'fractured axel to fade'.  This is the 'half axel' like entry mentioned  by Adicakes.

I wasted years of flying by not mastering this trick earlier.  Not only is it more reliable, but the kite never goes through a position where it can power up (as in the flare to fade/pancake to fade maneuver).  It's always depowered until it reaches the fade, so you can then easily transistion between other floating positions afterward.

In higher winds, the flare to fade is also difficult because you simply need more slack and movement to get to the flare position in the first place.  Serious, this is NOT the move you want to work on when looking long term.  This is much more a move to learn what a fade is, rather than for what you want to achieve.

I think most experienced pair trick fliers would also agree that this is the best way to get into a fade, as the success rate is just plain higher across a much wider wind range. 

obi


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Will Sturdy on February 15, 2010, 07:43 AM
+1 on what Obi said. The fractured axel is by far the easiest way to get into a fade IMO.
Plus learning to control axel like rotations like working with the fractured axel will will probably make you much more comfortable throwing that sort of move just randomly into your flying. It turns into just another sort of turn, making it easier to recover from various missed tricks without looking so much like you messed up.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: tpatter on February 15, 2010, 08:42 AM
My favorite is half-axel to fade (its fast and a good looking entry), but I probably more often use the method obi mentioned just because it is nearly fool-proof no matter the wind.

If you are just learning how to do it, however, I think pancake to fade is best if the wind is not too high.  Its easy to go into flick flacks from there since you already know how to stop the kite on the way out and then flip it back.  You can do the pancake/fade on the edge even in high wind, but it is riskier for a nose-plant until you get very comfortable with the trick.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Crescent City on February 15, 2010, 09:56 AM
I couldn't get it until some one smarter than me told me its like catching a water balloon.  I worked on that trick for months without luck.  When I went to catch it after it rotated, I applied pressure to the lines like if I were catching a water balloon and it worked for me.

Good luck and welcome to the hobby.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: anOldMan on February 15, 2010, 10:14 AM
Chris,

If you can get a hold of the Trick or treat DVD, watch Lars in thefirst scene selection "Septenber Sessions". It is a tour de force of getting into fades from any position ways you probable never thought of. A very good DVD to have.  ;)


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: jaydub on February 15, 2010, 10:43 AM
I've a long history of struggling to master the HA to fade, although seeing some improvement on it recently.

I don't doubt the actual technique is very kite dependent, so advice from anybody from the DS/Talon school of tricking would be much appreciated.

Do you let the pancake go flat or pull back before it goes flat?

Do you pull through or give slack as the kite rotates from the pancake to the flare to stop the kite powering up?

Basic questions I know and TBH I'm almost too embarrassed to ask, but t's just one of those basic tricks I've never quite managed to master.



Title: Re: Fades
Post by: fidelio on February 15, 2010, 04:26 PM
jaydub, in talking about a flic-flac type movement on the deep space where you have 2 inputs; one to get from fade to pancake, then one from pancake back to fade. the deep space (in my experience) likes a small, controlled first input with the slack tended to the pancake position then a larger input followed by a LOT of slack to get back to the fade position.

i mention this specifically because it's the opposite of what i've found on many other kites. the kite in my profile picture likes a large first input and it'll do a big semi circle on it's own in a wide arc with lots of slack, and a quick pop will bring it back to the fade from the pancake, completely different feel than the deep space.

same trick, different feel to the input. which to the original poster is why learning to get into a fade consistently on the first kite you manage it with is difficult, because you have no successful reference. keep at it though, as this particular trick is one i think you'll plateau on, but have a breakthrough on one afternoon, or flying a different kite. for me, this trick was one i couldn't do one day, then could the next. however, i struggled with it consistently for a good eight months or so.

perseverance pays off.


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 15, 2010, 06:21 PM
anyone here can post a vid to show an example of a fractured axel to fade?

I try not to use the flare to fade as it requires sooooooo much throw before u pull into the fade in high wind (and god helps you if you failed... THUD!)

As of now, I do a spin up (say clockwise), when nose is pointing at the 2 oclock or so, i input a half axel, then pop with my right hand to get the fade.. currently has about 50% success rate (especially in high wind as i always dont pop hard enough). I wonder if this is what you guys call the Fracture axecl -> fade...

Thanks for all the valuable input and a very Happy Chinese New Year to everyone!


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: tpatter on February 15, 2010, 06:35 PM
Have you checked out this site?

http://cid-268807a1b99b3f7c.profile.live.com/Lists/cns (http://cid-268807a1b99b3f7c.profile.live.com/Lists/cns)!268807A1B99B3F7C!103/


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 16, 2010, 02:43 AM
Have you checked out this site?

[url]http://cid-268807a1b99b3f7c.profile.live.com/Lists/cns[/url] ([url]http://cid-268807a1b99b3f7c.profile.live.com/Lists/cns[/url])!268807A1B99B3F7C!103/



of coz i did. The tutorials are just awesome. :D


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: obijuankenobe on February 16, 2010, 03:40 AM
I don't have a video, but what you are describing is a good start I think.  Now you should work on trying to make the pull to the fade more of a two handed operation.  While what you are doing feels like it should work (and it does), I think it will be the very subtle addition of tension on the other hand that will increase your success rate from here.

You'll be pleased when you get this one down.  JLs are pretty straight forward when you enter this way, as are backspins, backspin cascades, and the mighty Lewis. 

obi


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: bryan beasley on February 16, 2010, 07:06 AM
One thing to be conscious of...

Fracturing an axel to get into the fade is possibly easier than flare - fade depending on the kite, but until you're comfortable with it, there's a tendancy to end in a screwy, unbalanced fade as the kite's still rotating -try to learn to fracture right and left handed axels at the same time as well.

Bryan


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 16, 2010, 07:14 AM
is Fractured AXel = Half Axel?


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: bryan beasley on February 16, 2010, 07:29 AM
No, a Fractured Axel is an Axel that's been Fractured.
A 1/2 Axel is 1/2 an Axel - ie. 180 degree rotation instead of 360.

Usually 1/2 axels are entered horizontally, exiting flying the opposite way (though you can of course do 'em flying up, down, diagonally, top wing, bottom wing - whatever you fancy really)

Bryan


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: anOldMan on February 16, 2010, 07:55 AM
is Fractured AXel = Half Axel?

This is probably splitting hairs but No they are not the same other than the word "Axel".

The Fractured axel is a breaking the the normal action of am Axel to perform some other trick or movement of the kite that is not associated with the axel movement. The sequence is: stall the kite, pop the lower wing so the kites nose goes into a flat belly down 360 rotation. The flyer fractures the axel movement before the end of the 360 flat turn. One of the places to fracture the axel movement is when the kite is in the Flare position. A two handed pop will put the kite into a Fade position and away the flyer goes.

The Half axel is as  Bryan states above. There is no stall to set-up the half axel. You release the lower wing (give it slack) and pop the upper wing and give slack to the upper wing hand. This will rotate the kite into 180 flat spin with the kite going through the same Flare position as the full axel. When the nose points in the opposite direction as you entered the trick. You power up the kite by pulling both hands to the neutral position and fly away in the opposite direction. When the kite is in the flare position, the flyer can perform the same two handed pop to the fade.

To perform either of these tricks in high wind requires a lot of running down wind because slack is required for the flat spin rotation. Or you do the tricks at the edge of the wind window. But then you are not really flying in high wind (spliting hairs again).   :)

Any time the kite moves through the Flare position, at a slow rate) you should be able to go to a fade and then beyond. But don't stay around in the Fade for long. Do a Fade and go movement. Trying to hold a Fade in high wing is an exercise in line control and foot movement. Which is good if you can do it but may lead to some frustration.  ;)

Remember, have fun.
aOM


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: randyg on February 16, 2010, 07:55 AM
Someone may have mentioned this up thread but I really like the Half Axel to Fade move. You're flying across the window and ba-bam!!...Fade.  Nail it with a flat stable Fade and you're golden. Until the next time you wife reminds you how pedestrian you really are.  :(


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 16, 2010, 08:43 AM
ok, back to the topic on Fractured Axel.

So far i can do half axels and the normal axels.. just need a visual idea of what is a fractured one.

I found this animation : axel Animation Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odH5rwTI83k&feature=PlayList&p=08367C6F51CE25D3&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=9#normal)

So am I right to say that at the 12th second, during the flat belly rotation, pull with both hands to 'Fracture' this axel and draw it into the fade is what you guys are talking about?

And this is the half axel to fade, pretty straight fwd. halfaxel to fade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6VzDBDbYy8&feature=PlayList&p=08367C6F51CE25D3&index=8#normal)


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: anOldMan on February 16, 2010, 08:49 AM
So am I right to say that at the 12th second, during the flat belly rotation, pull with both hands to 'Fracture' this axel and draw it into the fade is what you guys are talking about?


You've got it.  ;)



Title: Re: Fades
Post by: tpatter on February 16, 2010, 12:10 PM
You can also do the one-hand input axel to fade, which I think is the easiest because you don't need to worry about waiting for the "pancake" portion of the axel before the pull to the fade.

You just axel with one hand (a spin-axel type axel, no need to stall) and then pull the non-axeling hand to lift the nose up, then catch the fade with both lines equally.  It doesn't look very nice, but it works well. 

Many folks do it this way, so its easy to find videos to study.



Title: Re: Fades
Post by: lylenc on February 16, 2010, 06:16 PM
Quote
You just axel with one hand (a spin-axel type axel, no need to stall) and then pull the non-axeling hand to lift the nose up, then catch the fade with both lines equally.

Pull the non-axeling hand about 45 degrees before the pancake, give or take a little depending on kite, position in the window, and conditions.

Conditions:  If you've had a beer or two, start about 90 degrees before the pancake and the timing will be perfect!!!!!!   ;)


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: jaydub on February 17, 2010, 11:12 PM
Pull the non-axeling hand about 45 degrees before the pancake, give or take a little depending on kite, position in the window, and conditions.
Craig,

Struggling a bit visualising what you mean by pulling the non-axeling hand about 45 degrees before the pancake.  Any chance you could explain in more detail.

Thanks,

Jon


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: anOldMan on February 18, 2010, 12:02 AM
You can also do the one-hand input axel to fade, which I think is the easiest because you don't need to worry about waiting for the "pancake" portion of the axel before the pull to the fade.

You just axel with one hand (a spin-axel type axel, no need to stall) and then pull the non-axeling hand to lift the nose up, then catch the fade with both lines equally.  It doesn't look very nice, but it works well. 

Many folks do it this way, so its easy to find videos to study.



This is a rolling Fade and the only tutorial that I have seen showing the type of enterence into the Fade is on Benson's TricK or Treat DVD.

For me, the hardest part of getting to the Fade this way is catching the Fade and trying to stop the kite from rolliong out of the Fade. The slower that you do the roll of the kite the easier it is to catch the Fade and hold it. Or you do not try to hold the Fade but as the kite goes into the Fade position you start executing the Fade trick that you wanted to do (Backspin, JL, etc.).  :)


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: chrispie on February 18, 2010, 06:09 AM
Been flying with WidowMaker and Talon Std.. find that somehow it is easier to get into a fade with the WM, wonder if it is due to the 20g tail weight. Anyone shares the same experience?


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: Dolphinboy on February 18, 2010, 12:18 PM
Been flying with WidowMaker and Talon Std.. find that somehow it is easier to get into a fade with the WM, wonder if it is due to the 20g tail weight. Anyone shares the same experience?

All of Jon T's kites I've flown have been very good at the Fade :)


Title: Re: Fades
Post by: jaydub on February 18, 2010, 03:08 PM
The Talon std is not very stable in the fade.  The UL is much better apparently.

I've spent two years flying the Talon and beating myself up how bad I was about fade related tricks.

A lot of it was me, but there are easier kites out there to learn to fade on.