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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: cids on March 10, 2010, 09:43 PM



Title: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: cids on March 10, 2010, 09:43 PM
What are the differences in tricking department ?


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: rxburner on March 10, 2010, 11:04 PM
The Standard tricks in slightly higher wind and the Light tricks in slightly lower wind. They are both nice. If you put 3PT's LS on the STD and 5 PT's LS on the Light, there is not much difference.
I prefer the Standard for most general flying.
I have not flown the Vented Light
Rx


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 11, 2010, 01:12 AM
Light gets a bit fast when the wind is above 10mph, but I still like it even then. It's a great frame - I switch to the Standard for less speed and more mass, but the Light will fly right up to 20 without the frame deforming or showing signs of concern - you can still stall and trick in the teens, particularly with long lines (say 100-120 which give you a large window).  I fly my Light with the 5pt lower spreaders and wind brakes at times.  If I take only one kite with me, that is the one.

Ultimately, it depends on your winds and how many Fearless you think you need.  With our local winds here (usually 3-12), I fly the Light about 70% of the time.  I'd say if your typical wind is 2.5-10, then go with the Light.  3.5-16, go with the Standard, 4-20+ then go vented.  These are my general opinions based on flying the kites and not rigorously validated, but I think good advice.

There is alot of overlap in terms of wind required in the Fearless line.  They will all delightlyfully fly in 4-5mph, the big difference is on the very low and upper ends.  The vented light has a wider wind range than the standard (IMO) and is super tricky throughout.

Here's a possibly little known fact - the sails are all the same as are the frame dimensions (afaik, weighting is different and there are bridle changes as well).  So, if you want to you can reframe and change your decision at a later point.  Also, they all have the same basic "feel" in terms of how you fly and trick them - its simply a matter of choosing the right frame/mass versus wind .


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 11, 2010, 01:19 AM
the Light will fly right up to 20 without the frame deforming or showing signs of concern - you can still stall and trick in the teens, particularly with long lines (say 100-120 which give you a large window).
I realise that all of Lam's kites and in particular the sainted Fearless are coated with Unbelievium™ but... a 3PT frame neither "deforming" nor "showing signs of concern" at a genuine 20mph is something I'd very much like to see, either in person or on video. Got a link ?

I'm not saying that I don't believe you but it's the sort of thing that I like to have a solid confirmation on. You understand I'm sure  ;D

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 11, 2010, 01:39 AM
What fool would capture that sort of video? 

I am for sure not suggesting that someone as a rule should fly the Light into the teens, just that you can (and I have) and the kite is both fun and fine if you don't mind a quicker pace.  Also, the lower spreaders are 5pt and the spine is P300 which I think helps out. 

I also have no wind meter I take to the field, but rely on those the state has setup.  Personally, I would not fly my Light to 20 mph, but I've seen folks do it while I was flying my standard right beside them last year at a trick clinic in Lincoln City with a wind-meter (no video).  There were 6 of us flying all day in 20+ and no one broke anything.

I think you are also missing the general point that I made - that is if you need to regularly fly in that sort of wind, then get a vented.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 11, 2010, 01:56 AM
What fool would capture that sort of video? 
Someone who wished to substantiate a claim ?  ;)

Quote
Also, the lower spreaders are 5pt and the spine is P300 which I think helps out. 
Ah... so the Light can be had with 3PTs but the one that you claim can fly in 20mph is, in fact, framed in what many people would rightly consider Standard. And has the same sail as the Standard. And might reasonable be thought of as.... Standard. Y/N ?

Quote
I think you are also missing the general point that I made - that is if you need to regularly fly in that sort of wind, then get a vented.
No, I got that. I'd be flying a vented kite in 20mph, possibly with some other aerodynamic additions too. 20mph is a lot of wind. I was merely querying the claims about the Light flying untroubled in 20mph.

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 11, 2010, 02:24 AM
I have to agree with Zippy.  20mph is alot of wind (+8m/s!), and without a wind meter, you can't gauge it accurately.  The difference between  sustained 15 and 20mph is huge for the kite and not so much for trees and such.  The Beaufort scale (originally a sailor's wind scale based on the behavior of surface waves) breaks here for a reason.  (15mph is a solid B-4, and 20 is a solid B-5.)

In my experience, heaven is Beaufort 1-2 on the beach.  Beaufort 4 is stiff strong flying wind (inland hell; beach just doable), and Beaufort 5 is just not fun anywhere.  And you are flying your Fearless light in Beaufort 5. 

In any case, this is small potatoes as AudioRob used to fly the Mohawk in Beaufort 6 and above.   ::)

obi


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 02:42 AM
I was there in Lincoln City, with a wind gauge, although not verified by the Zip  :-X ,..........That day, the winds did not go under 22 MPH after they came up...............I was totally uncomfortable flying the Std. in the middle of the wind window, but others were tricking their lights everywhere...........this was beach wind coming all the way across the Pacific unfettered from Japan...............and they were sustained with gusts higher.  At one time I caught a 28Mph gust on the meter.  Even with a twenty percent error margin, which couldn't be,  the winds were at twenty or above for the afternoon.

Put that in your pipes, gentlemen.............but don't try smoking it  :o

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 11, 2010, 02:53 AM
Well, if it was Beaufort 5, it was Beaufort 5.  I wasn't calling anyone a liar, just suggesting that 20mph is alot of wind and should not be used synonymously with 'strong winds' in which a light kite will fly comfortably.  Up for debate still is whether these are 'lights' at all.   ;) 

I will clarify my statement by saying that Beaufort 5 not ideal trick kiting conditions FOR ME and what I want to get out of it.  In fact, if you need a tent to roll 'things' in, then it's FAR from ideal.   :D

obi       


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 03:04 AM
I wasn't suggesting that anyone was calling anyone a liar....................(well maybe someone with the crack about substantiation)  The truth is, I've never seen anyone other than Lam who appeared to be comfortable in those kinds of wind.................definitely not me.............at twelve I'm ready to call it a day even with a vent.....................I was there because I was there for the clinic and decided I'd hang on for dear life  ???.............The thing about it being a light?  If it will fly comfortably in 3 miles per hour without moving backwards.............I'd call it a light..............

It will (the light, ie)


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 11, 2010, 03:05 AM
I was totally uncomfortable flying the Std. in the middle of the wind window, but others were tricking their lights everywhere...........
I hope that you can, therefore, understand my enquiry. If you had not been there, would you have accepted this statement that a Fearless Light laughs off 20mph wind when you yourself wouldn't inflict that on your Standard ?

It is quite some claim. Or it least it would be for any other kite than the Fearless which mocks physics and tweaks the nose of structural limitations  :P

I really must get around to trying one some time. ;D

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: ezme6 on March 11, 2010, 04:01 AM
I was totally uncomfortable flying the Std. in the middle of the wind window, but others were tricking their lights everywhere...........
I hope that you can, therefore, understand my enquiry. If you had not been there, would you have accepted this statement that a Fearless Light laughs off 20mph wind when you yourself wouldn't inflict that on your Standard ?

It is quite some claim. Or it least it would be for any other kite than the Fearless which mocks physics and tweaks the nose of structural limitations  :P

I really must get around to trying one some time. ;D

Mike.


That seems to happen alot. Someone knocks a kite, or says it is not so or impossible....but they have never flown said kite....so How in the heck can they come to that conclusion?  Good on ya Zip Master, try out a Fearless, but be prepared to have a bigger kite sale... :D


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 04:08 AM
Mike,
You really should...............but forewarned is forearmed..........It literally gives tricks away, (although some might call it a crutch  ;))  Me?  It makes it a lot easier to relearn the proper muscle memory to do today's tricks.....(although I'm not that hot on yesterday's either :'(

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 11, 2010, 04:50 AM
That seems to happen alot. Someone knocks a kite, or says it is not so or impossible....but they have never flown said kite....so How in the heck can they come to that conclusion?
A) I have gone to some lengths not to say "it can't do that" or "that's impossible". I remain to be convinced of this claim but I am open to being convinced. As I said... a simple video of such an event would almost certainly seal the deal.

B) It is more than possible to draw conclusions based on similar experience. I have yet to come across a kite I would describe as Light, albeit a Light with a Standard sounding frame, that I would be even momentarily consider attempting to think about the possibility of chancing my arm at flying in honest-to-goodness 20mph winds, let alone expecting it shrug off such treatment.

What was the question ?  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 08:58 AM

I don't believe any of this crap ... I had a set of Sea Devils ... SUL, UL, STD, FV. At one point I had a Midvent too.

Guess how many I have now ?

If Lam's kites really were the greatest thing since sliced bread don't you think I might have kept one ?

And whilst its true that the Sea Devil is not the Fearless - there was even more frankly nauseous hyperbole back in the day regarding the Sea Devil.

-Frazer




Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 11, 2010, 09:05 AM
Ok Mike,

The next time I am out and have wind in the teens (nearing 20, perhaps gusts to 20), I will get some video of the event for your satisfaction.  In that wind with a Light, don't expected anything but higher wind friendly tricks like snap lazys, insanes, and cascades.

Many of the videos of the Light on my youtube site already contain videos of the kite flying in 2.5-10 which I consider its ideal range (which, once again I think, is the main point of this thread).

Frazer,

I don't get it - I don't see anything in this thread even remotely questionable beyond Mike's disbelief that the Light will not instantly explode in 20mph of smooth wind.


-Tom


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 09:20 AM
I don't get it - I don't see anything in this thread even remotely questionable beyond Mike's disbelief that the Light will not instantly explode in 20mph of smooth wind.

His disbelief is questionable ? (He won't like you saying that ... and hes a mmmModerator don't you know)

I guess I've just had my fill of Fearless euphoria ... I'm drowning in passive b/s.

-Frazer


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 11, 2010, 09:38 AM
I get it - my bad grammar,  the 20 mph question seems to be at issue and I've already stated that I don't walk around with a wind meter and plot things.  All I know is that I have been flying the light while others were concerned enough to stop flying their standards.

On the euphoria - I don't think that its any different than Nirvana euphoria, or Cosmic, or Talon, or WM.  We all love our favorite kites, until we find a new favorite!  :)

Hmmm....."Cosmic Euphoria" - I like that one.  I think I'll recommend that name for my sons band.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: jaybett on March 11, 2010, 09:40 AM
I was at the Lam workshop at Long Beach, WA. If I remember correctly, winds never went below 23mph, and went up to 26-27mph. When we came in from flying one of the first comments made by Tom aka Tpatters, was that nobody would believe that a Fearless Vented Light would be able to fly in that kind of wind. A video really needs to be done.

Jay


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 10:04 AM
On the euphoria - I don't think that its any different than Nirvana euphoria, or Cosmic, or Talon, or WM.  We all love our favorite kites, until we find a new favorite!  :)

No, its NOT the same thing at all.

Show me a post where the flier claims to flyer this vented Comic/Nirvana/Talon/whatever in 2-3 mph.

Or where they fly their SUL in 10+ - and yet every week we see such Fearless claims.

I don't doubt the Fearless is a nice kite. I know it will be *very* nicely made. And I can see from the videos that it is very tricky ... however ... flying a vented in less that 5mph is an asinine thing to do, likewise flying a SUL in 5mph+ or a light in 20mph+.

-Frazer


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: johnfarl on March 11, 2010, 10:09 AM
I have flown my Fearless Light in the mid twenties and even did some tricking on the edges.  Put in 5PT's in LS and used some brakes.  It was flyable as any vented kite.  Yes it is euphoria and it feels good.

Now I have a Standard and it flies a little better in the higher winds.  Lets say I don't worry as much.

I will probably go to std vented later.  Tax refund time.

John


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: DaveH on March 11, 2010, 11:29 AM
A couple of months ago I gave Lam a call. I had come into some unexpected cash and was in a position to buy a fearless standard.  During our lengthy conversation, Lam made a strong case for his new light vented.  With a set of 5 pt LS, it seemed a guy could have a pretty versitile kite which due to venting would handle rough inland winds pretty well.  I still wanted the std, however, because I like the mass of a standard and prefer the way unvented kites respond.  Unfortunately some serious bad stuff came up which caused me to not be able to get the kite.  What I came away from the experience was all this vented kites in light winds, light kites in big winds stuff is a way to address age old problems from another perspective.  Does it work?  Don't know and frankly don't care.  My favorite thing to do when its blowing 20 knots is sit on my butt and drink beer.  But for those who have found success in these methods, allow them their voice and give the maker his due.
I hope to get that Fearless std one day.  In the mean time, I'll continue to rave about my Nirvana, annoy folks with my delight found in the E3, and hopefully many more kites.  c'mon guys, this is supposed to be fun.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: jaybett on March 11, 2010, 12:09 PM
I'm not even sure what kite we are talking about. If it's the Fearless Light Vented, it will go into the 20mph plus range. The Light itself probably tops out around 15mph, without wind brakes.  At 20mph, it would be shuddering.

One of the reasons for the Light's high wind range is that the frame is closer to a Standard then an Ultra Light. I think the nose being bridled forward also helps, with the low and high points of the wind range. I wonder if the sail, being made out of two pieces of material, instead of panels, helps at all?

If Fearless owners, which I am one, are going to make extraordinary claims about the performance of a Fearless, then we need to provide proof. Otherwise it's nothing more then hyperbole.

Jay



Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 12:19 PM
I'm not even sure what kite we are talking about. If it's the Fearless Light Vented, it will go into the 20mph plus range. The Light itself probably tops out around 15mph, without wind brakes.  At 20mph, it would be shuddering.

Tom Patterson is talking *light*

... but the Light will fly right up to 20 without the frame deforming or showing signs of concern ...

Which is oh-so-typical-Fearless-rhetoric.

-Frazer


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 12:29 PM
Unfortunate that all Fearless owners are dishonest isn't it?

Not dishonest, just deluded perhaps ...

.................Lam has us under a voodoo spell and we're all in it together to destroy the sport kite world.............

He rather does. Like I said ... same thing happened with the Sea Devil ... and it real wasn't up to the hype.

Perhaps its got something to do with the asking price. Once you've spent that much you feel compelled to eulogize endlessly (God will it never end ?) about it ?

Good Gadzooks Fraz  -   you really need to go stand in the corner and take a LOOOOONG time out.

Okay pops ... and you good easy on that Kool Aid now okay ?  :D

-Frazer

Above it all................you are making Lam a lot of money with your bs...............maybe you're on the inside? ;)............He's got you under his spell...............more so than the rest of us deluded ones ;)

I thank you...............and I'm sure Lam does too............   8)


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: jaybett on March 11, 2010, 01:16 PM
I'm not even sure what kite we are talking about. If it's the Fearless Light Vented, it will go into the 20mph plus range. The Light itself probably tops out around 15mph, without wind brakes.  At 20mph, it would be shuddering.

Tom Patterson is talking *light*

... but the Light will fly right up to 20 without the frame deforming or showing signs of concern ...

Which is oh-so-typical-Fearless-rhetoric.

-Frazer
I agree about the rhetoric.

One of the reasons, I fly the Fearless, is because of its wind range. I've flown the Light when standards have felt over powered. To be fair I've flown the Light when it felt over powered, and the standards were doing just fine. 

In my limited experience, I have flown kites that I considered to have good wind ranges. The Widow Maker and the Jinx. I know this is subjective, but the Fearless felt like it had a better low and higher end then those two kites.

The Standard with its extra mass is probably a little better then the Light at rotational tricks. The Light though in its sweet spot which is between 5mph and 12mph, is my favorite of the line.

Jay


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Bob D on March 11, 2010, 01:18 PM
I think that last post is what we're waiting for. Let's quit while we're ahead.

After three pages of posts and most of it off topic, I was starting to get the feeling that it was time to start locking the thread.

"Knock, Knock. Mods?"


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: DWayne on March 11, 2010, 01:49 PM
I must have jumped through the wrong rabbit hole. I thought this was the Unicorns & Rainbows forum.

Denny


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 11, 2010, 02:00 PM
Com'on!  This is a fine conversation, and should NOT be locked.  No one is being unreasonable yet.  I think it is good to have some passion about this stuff. 

One of the reasons, I fly the Fearless, is because of its wind range. I've flown the Light when standards have felt over powered. To be fair I've flown the Light when it felt over powered, and the standards were doing just fine. 

The Standard with its extra mass is probably a little better then the Light at rotational tricks. The Light though in its sweet spot which is between 5mph and 12mph, is my favorite of the line.

Jay

That first part is very...well, confusing.  Sounds like you agree with both parties in this argument.  Only one can be true on average, I guess.  Still, I am not sure what winds would scare a standard but a light?  I guess I haven't flown in them. 

And to just keep it real, it sounds like from your list of kites you have flown relatively few kites and certainly none with magic powers like the Fearless.  Yet you only 'sense' there is a wind range difference?  Again, not helping the pro-Fearless crew all that much IMO.  Minor point, admittedly. ;)

What exactly are the framing differences we are talking about here?  5PT versus 3PT LEs?  Both use 5PT spreaders?  I think Zippy may have been onto something when he pointed out the difference is not the difference between a standard and a UL...'light' might even be exaggerating the difference?  'Light standard' is maybe more apt?  Then it's semantics, of course.

I still tend to think 20mph sustained/blow factor 5 is more wind than fun.  But I do fly an XTs.   8)

obi


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: jaybett on March 11, 2010, 03:19 PM
Com'on!  This is a fine conversation, and should NOT be locked.  No one is being unreasonable yet.  I think it is good to have some passion about this stuff. 

One of the reasons, I fly the Fearless, is because of its wind range. I've flown the Light when standards have felt over powered. To be fair I've flown the Light when it felt over powered, and the standards were doing just fine. 

The Standard with its extra mass is probably a little better then the Light at rotational tricks. The Light though in its sweet spot which is between 5mph and 12mph, is my favorite of the line.

Jay

That first part is very...well, confusing.  Sounds like you agree with both parties in this argument.  Only one can be true on average, I guess.  Still, I am not sure what winds would scare a standard but a light?  I guess I haven't flown in them. 

And to just keep it real, it sounds like from your list of kites you have flown relatively few kites and certainly none with magic powers like the Fearless.  Yet you only 'sense' there is a wind range difference?  Again, not helping the pro-Fearless crew all that much IMO.  Minor point, admittedly. ;)

What exactly are the framing differences we are talking about here?  5PT versus 3PT LEs?  Both use 5PT spreaders?  I think Zippy may have been onto something when he pointed out the difference is not the difference between a standard and a UL...'light' might even be exaggerating the difference?  'Light standard' is maybe more apt?  Then it's semantics, of course.

I still tend to think 20mph sustained/blow factor 5 is more wind than fun.  But I do fly an XTs.   8)

obi

The debate up to this point has been on wind range. While I don't agree that a Fearless Light can go up to 20mph or higher without deforming or shuddering, the wind range is one of the Fearless' strength. It will fly and still be trickable in winds,  that will cause other fliers to be getting out their vents.   

A few years ago, you were caught up in Sea Devil euphoria, your avatar was even a picture of one.  From your own experience, you know that Lam kites have a wide wind range. With all the flying you have done, trick parties and camps you have attended. You never experienced the Sea Devil Light flying easily in winds, while people were working hard with their standards or grabbing their vents?

There is more to a Fearless, then its wind range. What got you so excited about Sea Devils, is what people appreciate about the Fearless.

Jay


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: UPNET on March 11, 2010, 04:10 PM
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm213sharepopcorn.gif)


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: freecheese on March 11, 2010, 04:15 PM
([url]http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm213sharepopcorn.gif[/url])


+1  :D


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: xuzme720 on March 11, 2010, 04:16 PM
Awesome!


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Dolphinboy on March 11, 2010, 04:40 PM
I was going to buy a Fearless in either the Light or Standard. I had tried them both and had pretty much decided on the standard. I liked both but for me the light wasn't as much fun when the winds hit 10+ mph. I know people fly the light in much higher but I could really tell it had less mass tricking when the wind picked up. The kite was fine just not my taste in more wind. In lower wind they seemed similar.

I ended up buying the Vented Light even though I hadn't tried it. I liked what Lam & others had to say about how and what tricks the Vented Light did compared to the standard & light. Kind of crazy but after a brief try I am happy so far  ;D

When I originally decided to buy a Fearless, I did so because I liked the way they tricked and looked when they did those tricks. This is the key issue.  I thought this kite would be a good fit for me and how I would trick it. Not because it's cool to have a Fearless, it's magical properties or whatever else. Another reason is my other kites from Lam have been a good experience for me. He loves kites and flying kites. Talk to him, he has passion for his kites and it shows in the product. Whether you like his kites or not that is a fact. I feel good helping support his kite business too even if it's just a little.



Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: RobB on March 11, 2010, 05:45 PM
Wow, I have a couple of SDs, and they're some of my favorite kites. I have a FL SUL as well, and is my easiest to trick light wind kite. Still learning to fly it, I only have a few hours on it, but I am about to order the vented light FL. What are you flying now that is better than the SDs ? Just curious...

~Rob.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 06:19 PM
Wow, I have a couple of SDs, and they're some of my favorite kites. I have a FL SUL as well, and is my easiest to trick light wind kite. Still learning to fly it, I only have a few hours on it, but I am about to order the vented light FL. What are you flying now that is better than the SDs ? Just curious...

Vendettas and Cosmics are *much* better comp. type kites.

Deep Space and Talon are *much* better freestyle kites.

-Frazer


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 06:49 PM
A totally subjective answer.........and an opinion you're entitled to............

Didn't your time out help?


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: xuzme720 on March 11, 2010, 07:53 PM
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii269/theogrit/1sm213sharepopcorn.gif)

+2


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: bigwheels on March 11, 2010, 08:33 PM
I've had a Deep Space & flew it extensively. I have a Talon Std & the Fearless Std vented & I've flown them each five or six times the same day, first one then the other. The Talon does only one thing equal to or better than the Fearless. It rolls up quicker. The Deep Space is even less forgiving than the Talon. Both of the UK kites are what I call the "keep it moving" type. They want you to link tricks & parts of tricks in a continuous motion. It's fun to do that but I also like  to do hesitation steps. On it's back, wait, tension a line for a half lazy, roll over about 90 gently, give a little more tension to come to a fade, roll out & ease it into a turtle again. The Fearless Light is fine in 20mph with 5pt ls, 3pt frame. The Fearless Std vented ,SUL & S handle all my needs from 1 to 25mph. No need for the Light or Std.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: fworley on March 11, 2010, 08:38 PM
I've had a Deep Space & flew it extensively. I have a Talon Std & the Fearless Std vented & I've flown them each five or six times the same day, first one then the other. The Talon does only one thing equal to or better than the Fearless. It rolls up quicker. The Deep Space is even less forgiving than the Talon. Both of the UK kites are what I call the "keep it moving" type. They want you to link tricks & parts of tricks in a continuous motion. It's fun to do that but I also like  to do hesitation steps. On it's back, wait, tension a line for a half lazy, roll over about 90 gently, give a little more tension to come to a fade, roll out & ease it into a turtle again. The Fearless Light is fine in 20mph with 5pt ls, 3pt frame. The Fearless Std vented ,SUL & S handle all my needs from 1 to 25mph. No need for the Light or Std.

This is interesting ... but my comparison was with Sea Devils.

I've not flown a Fearless.

-Frazer


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Dolphinboy on March 11, 2010, 11:01 PM

This is interesting ... but my comparison was with Sea Devils.

I've not flown a Fearless.

-Frazer

Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: freecheese on March 11, 2010, 11:06 PM
To be fair, that exchange went as follows:

Must86: What are you flying now that is better than the SDs ? Just curious...

fworley: Vendettas and Cosmics are *much* better comp. type kites. Deep Space and Talon are *much* better freestyle kites.






Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 11, 2010, 11:31 PM
(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Avatars/ModHat.png)

Six posts removed, two from Kantaxel and four from fworley.

(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Avatars/ChillPill.png)

Take one, pass the bottle to the left. I've got better things to do than delete posts and I know of an easy way to make sure I don't have to, m'kay ? Now touch gloves and return to your corners.

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 11, 2010, 11:35 PM
Again,,,,,,,,,,,my apologies :(


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: obijuankenobe on March 12, 2010, 01:14 AM
A few years ago, you were caught up in Sea Devil euphoria, your avatar was even a picture of one.  From your own experience, you know that Lam kites have a wide wind range. With all the flying you have done, trick parties and camps you have attended. You never experienced the Sea Devil Light flying easily in winds, while people were working hard with their standards or grabbing their vents?

There is more to a Fearless, then its wind range. What got you so excited about Sea Devils, is what people appreciate about the Fearless.

Jay

I still think the SD is a GREAT kite.  I have just moved on from it.  But I had a light (as well as a UL, mid vent nylon, full vent icky, standard nylon, and an SUL at one point).  Best SD I had was the light for sure.  It was great because of it's LOW END, not because it out performed standards in heavy winds.  It flew nearly as low as the SUL, but could handle standard winds as well.  It was best in 2-10mph, which is also quite frankly the IDEAL ZEN TRICK KITE WIND RANGE IMHO.  Below 2, and you're working.  Above 10mph and you're working.  I sold my SUL and UL because of the light (and the Ghost).  I kept the stuff above it until the very end.  I held on to them a long time even after I stopped flying them because Lam makes amazing kites.  On this there is no debate.

Sorry, but absolutely not:  I never encountered conditions where the SD light didn't top out before the standards around me, or the standards in my own kite bag.  And I am certain I never even set up that kite in winds above 15mph.  That's why we are debating this.  IMHO, 20mph would have been silly with the SD light I owned.  (Mine was 3PT LE, and 5PT spreaders). 

In 20mph, you need to run or walk damn fast to get a JL on an SD light.  You need to nearly sprint to pull off a backspin cascade.  The claims made by the Fearless light owners sound as though they were lazily doing endless ladders and lewis cascades in 20mph wind while the rest of the fliers in the field were struggling to land their kites, clean up the broken spreaders, and change to their vents.  (Which could in theory be factual, of course.)   

obi   

(Just to chip in with the 'Sea Devil...what now?' portion:  I am now almost exclusively on the XTs given the appropriate wind.  In addition, I love my Cosmic and Ghost, my Essence set is wonderful, and my Diablis is awesome when the wind gets above 12mph.  If nothing else flies, the Sissy does.  The Sea Devils just weren't coming out of the bag anymore, and it was not an easy decision.)


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: anOldMan on March 12, 2010, 02:08 AM
If you are looking for a competition ballet kite the Fearless or SD is a good choice. If you are looking for a freestyle trick machine you would be hard put to pass-up a DS or Talon. What do you want to do?

In my case I own 4 Fearless kites and fly the STD the most. It reacts better then the other Fearless kite in my inland gusty wind conditions.

My vote between the LIGHT and the STD, the STD.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 16, 2010, 11:01 AM
Without wishing to reopen old wounds and at the risk of having to moderate myself...  :-[

in this thread we've heard that the Fearless Light can and has been flown and tricked across the wind window in 22, gusting to 28, mph winds. Another statement was that at 20mph the frame was untroubled. With this in mind I had a chat earlier today with a flyer with a long competition history who is familiar (in passing) with the Fearless. His commentary on this subject would, if repeated here, get me banned. He reminded me that under IRBC rules 28mph is the maximum allowable wind speed and at that point everyone would be on heavily vented kites with slow down devices and rope for lines. He had very firm advice about what sort of kite in terms of set up, framing, lines, etc. he would consider flyable in those windspeeds and Light didn't cover it.

With all this in mind:-
what exactly is this Fearless Light that is/was being used in those conditions ? How is it framed ? We haven't accidentally slipped over into Light Vented have we ? Are we merely talking at cross purposes here ?  ???

Really I'm simply asking. My idea of what a Fearless Light constitutes (3PTs, reduced reinforcement...) I genuinely would be truly impressed if it did these things and, yes, I'd be thinking seriously about a kite bag cull. And wondering why no-one else had managed the same thing.

Mike,
in a spirit of enquiry.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 16, 2010, 12:02 PM
Without wishing to reopen old wounds and at the risk of having to moderate myself...  :-[

in this thread we've heard that the Fearless Light can and has been flown and tricked across the wind window in 22, gusting to 28, mph winds. Another statement was that at 20mph the frame was untroubled.

I made the original statement - perhaps saying the frame is untroubled was an overstatement, but it certainly was not flapping or in any imminent danger or breakage.   As Jim previously said, 2 flyers and one in particular flew the Light all day in that wind while most of us were using standards and vents.  I think it is highly unwise to fly the Light in 20+mph, but i have no stability concerns at all flying mine in 15.


Quote
With all this in mind:-
what exactly is this Fearless Light that is/was being used in those conditions ? How is it framed ? We haven't accidentally slipped over into Light Vented have we ? Are we merely talking at cross purposes here ?  ???

It was being used because it was the only kite they brought to the fly.  The Light Vented IS the kite to fly in those winds.  I was flying mine last weekend in 20mph - working on the comete, flew for hours and hours.  And yes, the FVL is 3pt frame with 5pt lower spreader - just like the Light, but it has vents.

This whole thing has been blown out of proportion no -one (well, perhaps Lam - he seems to like to fly kites on their high end) would look forward to flying their Light in 20mph wind.

So, for pitys sake, can we end this thing?




Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2010, 12:13 PM
Without wishing to reopen old wounds and at the risk of having to moderate myself...  :-[

in this thread we've heard that the Fearless Light can and has been flown and tricked across the wind window in 22, gusting to 28, mph winds. Another statement was that at 20mph the frame was untroubled. With this in mind I had a chat earlier today with a flyer with a long competition history who is familiar (in passing) with the Fearless. His commentary on this subject would, if repeated here, get me banned. He reminded me that under IRBC rules 28mph is the maximum allowable wind speed and at that point everyone would be on heavily vented kites with slow down devices and rope for lines. He had very firm advice about what sort of kite in terms of set up, framing, lines, etc. he would consider flyable in those windspeeds and Light didn't cover it.

With all this in mind:-
what exactly is this Fearless Light that is/was being used in those conditions ? How is it framed ? We haven't accidentally slipped over into Light Vented have we ? Are we merely talking at cross purposes here ?  ???

Really I'm simply asking. My idea of what a Fearless Light constitutes (3PTs, reduced reinforcement...) I genuinely would be truly impressed if it did these things and, yes, I'd be thinking seriously about a kite bag cull. And wondering why no-one else had managed the same thing.

Mike,
in a spirit of enquiry.
How does one moderate oneself?  And in the spirit of an honest answer (and not being lured)................the day in question was at least three months before Lam made his first production Vented Std.  The vented liight didn't come out for another 5 months or more after the std.

Kite framed in 3Pt Le's and 5pt spreaders.  Honestly, the only person there that could trick decently, in the center of the window, was Lam himself and every one of the Fearless there, survived the day with little or no injuries, from what I witnessed.

 8)

Jim



Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: xuzme720 on March 16, 2010, 01:07 PM
It would basically eliminate the whole bag!!! Especially when you consider all the good press I've seen on the Fearless. (Haven't had the privilege of one yet on 'the other end of me straps'...)


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2010, 01:15 PM
Mike,
I checked first to see if Tom answered, this time....................Honestly......what you ask I've never seen before (not that I'm an expert, anyway)  But Tom and I were both flying Tattoos yesterday with all 2Pt framing in 1-6 with gusts to 12................I believe that Lam has come up with a sail that somehow does not have the same effect as the sails on other kites..............I (again, I'm not a good flyer) have flown the Std in 3-28 and yesterday flew the light non-vented down as low as two.............What can I say........I think you have been informed, but the proof would be in the pudding, as they say?

Try it..you'll like it...........I'm sure of it

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: xuzme720 on March 16, 2010, 01:51 PM
I am curious...is there any flying comparison to be made between the SD and the FL? Are they in any way similar?


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: DWayne on March 16, 2010, 01:56 PM
Is there a support group for people that want to get out of this cult?  :D


Denny


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: kiten00b on March 16, 2010, 03:04 PM
I've only flown the Fearless Vented Light in some pretty nasty and gusty winds, it made the best of a bad situation. I'd like to try it again in better winds.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 16, 2010, 03:12 PM

At the moment the wind range of a full sailed Fearless Light is claimed to be around 4 to 28mph (with a switch of LSs) and that's IMMENSE. Add in something for less wind than you can feel and you're sorted from nothing to let's go home, this is silly in two kites. And if that is the case I feel we should be told.  ;)

Mike.

You do only really need 2 Fearless, but one of them is not the Light.  You can easily fly from 1 to 28 with the SUL and standard vent and depending on how you want to tweak the high vs low range of the vent you could also go with the vented light.

But, having said this, I love the Light and would not be without it.  Perhaps in time I will switch to the vented light (I have not had enough time on it yet, but it seems likely).


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: RobB on March 16, 2010, 03:34 PM
I am curious...is there any flying comparison to be made between the SD and the FL? Are they in any way similar?
I have a Sea Devil light & standard, and a Fearless SUL. All 3 are way more capable kites than I am a pilot. They just make you look way better than you would flying, let's say, a QPro. That's why I have a Fearless VL on order, and plan on selling some kites that I don't fly anymore because Lam's kites are just too much fun to fly.
Right now, I'd say that I like the SDs better, but they don't fly as low as the FL SUL. I will probably change my mind once I fly a FL with a little more weight to it.
~Rob.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2010, 04:16 PM
Is there a support group for people that want to get out of this cult?  :D


Denny

 ;) Not that i know of :o


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: xuzme720 on March 16, 2010, 04:42 PM
Is there a support group for people that want to get out of this cult?  :D


Denny

 ;) Not that i know of :o
OUT? Shoot, pass the Kool-Aid! :P


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 16, 2010, 10:12 PM
You can easily fly from 1 to 28 with the SUL and standard vent
I've struck upon an idea. I'll get a Fearless Light Vented and frame it with Aerostuff Zen spars (10g light, 4P tough) and I reckon I should be covered from a vacuum to armageddon with just the one kite.

To the colouriser !!!

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: tpatter on March 16, 2010, 10:25 PM
With DST, we have gained an additional hour of light.  I was thinking of heading out for a fly after dinner, but saw that the winds were 25mph with gusts to 40.

I became Fearful (even if my kites aren't).   :)

Perhaps I should try to talk Lam into doing a 7pt full vent.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2010, 10:43 PM
You can easily fly from 1 to 28 with the SUL and standard vent
I've struck upon an idea. I'll get a Fearless Light Vented and frame it with Aerostuff Zen spars (10g light, 4P tough) and I reckon I should be covered from a vacuum to armageddon with just the one kite.

To the colouriser !!!

Mike.

Okay Mike.........seems to me you can't leave well enough alone........I'm sorry, and I won't let myself get lured in again................you've asked the question time and time again.............you got several answers.......all apparently not to your liking........................as a moderator.....wouldn't you think it was........... FINALLY!............time to desist?

Give us a break.....okay?

fEARLESS fOREVER!!!  HEH.....HEH

 :(


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: kiten00b on March 16, 2010, 11:05 PM
he can't desist.
something is wrong on the Internet (http://www.hollow-hill.com/sabina/images/someone-wrong-on-internet.jpg).


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: Kantaxel on March 16, 2010, 11:31 PM
you've asked the question time and time again.............you got several answers.......all apparently not to your liking....
I don't think you're reading the posts right  :( I am working on a colour scheme right now. All I needed was an excuse to try out the Zen spars. It'll be pricey (Zen chime in at £23 a pop now) but it certainly sounds like it'll be worth it.

Mike.

Sad........Lam doesn't have colorizers..............  Obviously the fact that Vit D is starting to come your way has caused an upset in your metabolism////////  hopefully you'll stay away from alchohol and other depressing drugs///////could cause an overdose........you know? ............................I promised......... so.......................OUT!!!!! 

Thank Heavens :(


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: anOldMan on March 17, 2010, 12:42 AM
You can easily fly from 1 to 28 with the SUL and standard vent
I've struck upon an idea. I'll get a Fearless Light Vented and frame it with Aerostuff Zen spars (10g light, 4P tough) and I reckon I should be covered from a vacuum to armageddon with just the one kite.

To the colouriser !!!

Mike.

@Mike, He did state two kites.

@Tpatter, If your name is Lam, probably. But for the rest of us average souls, not easily.


Title: Re: Fearless LIGHT vs. Fearless STD
Post by: zippy8 on March 17, 2010, 12:46 AM
Lam doesn't have colorizers.............. 

But I do. It's called GIMP. It's like Photoshop.

(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/kites/F%27less.jpg)

OK... this just is not being allowed to go anywhere is it. Hopefully the OP got their answer somewhere in all that mess. Deletions have been made, regrettably.

Mike.