GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: cids on April 05, 2010, 06:49 PM



Title: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...
Post by: cids on April 05, 2010, 06:49 PM
Do the stitched seam(I mean the tiny holes) weaken the sail in the long run or in high wind situation - say in 15mph wind ?


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: ko on April 05, 2010, 06:58 PM
its an sul and no but why?


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: DWayne on April 05, 2010, 07:22 PM
Why would you want to fly an SUL in 15 mph wind?
Oh wait, its a Fearless, never mind.

Denny


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: ezme6 on April 05, 2010, 07:36 PM
makes no sense to me either Denny...


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: cids on April 05, 2010, 07:59 PM
Forget about the kite. I'm talking about the tiny holes in the sail only.


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: xuzme720 on April 05, 2010, 08:04 PM
It's a Fearless! It's hard to forget about! ;D

But no. The holes shouldn't matter. They look like stitching holes? As in; the same size as needle holes?


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: cids on April 05, 2010, 08:10 PM
Quote
It's a Fearless! It's hard to forget about!


You are absolutely right on this one.  ;D :D ;D


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: ko on April 05, 2010, 09:26 PM
OK lam runs the sail thru his machine just like he was sewing the panels therefore the fearless pattern therefore the name tattoo i have not flown mine in anything close to 8 and do not intend to so if it blows up at 15  you will have to get that info from some1 else hope this helps KO


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Kantaxel on April 06, 2010, 12:21 AM
Mine has seen gusts of fifteen or more (in the middle of the window)  All it does is speed up and buzz pretty loud................I certainly wouldn't want to contact the ground under those circumstances though, and definitely wouldn't choose to fly the kite in any more than 10........for any reason ;)


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: RobB on April 06, 2010, 12:59 AM
This is a close-up of mine... it looks like Lam sewed invisible aplique on with invisible thread. VERY cool when backlit by the sun...

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: cids on April 06, 2010, 03:58 AM
Thanks for the foto.
The Tattoo feature is not too clear in the supplied foto. Can u post a closer close-up of the Tattoo pattern ? Thanks.  :) :) :)


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: RobB on April 06, 2010, 04:31 AM
Hey Cids...
if you click the picture, it should blow up for you in a pop-up. The Tattoo pattern is the standard Fearless pattern, waves & eyes. Someday I hope to get the picture with the sun coming through those holes, it makes the kite look sinister !
~Rob.


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Kantaxel on April 06, 2010, 04:36 AM
Hey Cids...
if you click the picture, it should blow up for you in a pop-up. The Tattoo pattern is the standard Fearless pattern, waves & eyes. Someday I hope to get the picture with the sun coming through those holes, it makes the kite look sinister !
~Rob.

Shows up pretty good with the click................................now would you just photo shop it for us and take........... :o  Sorry couldn't help myself :(  It's been a long night :-[

Jim


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: mikenchico on April 06, 2010, 09:16 PM
Yes there would be some weakening of the fabric but no more then any stitched seam. Unless you currently blow out a lot of sails I wouldn't worry about the Tattoo, if you do blow out a lot of sails I might get my wind meter calibrated  :o



Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: cids on April 07, 2010, 04:53 AM
If the above is true, then it is safe to say that any Icarex/nylon sails with no stitched seam will be the strongest, most durable and also most efficient in low wind situation.

Thanks to all that take the time to reply to my questions.  :)


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Will Sturdy on April 07, 2010, 06:10 AM
But then you don't get proper grain orientation, so some high stress points are not aligned with the weave of the fabric. The grain orientation can also to some small extent be used to get a more efficient camber. I would hesitate to say that a single panel is strongest and most efficient, especially when using nylon but to some extent with icarex as well.


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: DWayne on April 07, 2010, 06:38 AM
But then you don't get proper grain orientation, so some high stress points are not aligned with the weave of the fabric.

Does that really matter with an SUL?
It seems to me the drag created by seams would have a more adverse effect on an SUL than the orientation of the fabric warp might.
Denny


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Will Sturdy on April 07, 2010, 06:54 AM
Perhaps. Someone needs to do some experimentation.  :-\


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: obijuankenobe on April 07, 2010, 07:20 AM
I was under the impression that additional panels allow you to get 3D shapes/curves in the sail that you cannot achieve with a single panel.  Is this right? 

If so, then there is a huge part of kite design that is missing from most of Lam's kites.  Hmmmmm.

obi


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Kantaxel on April 07, 2010, 07:53 AM
Remember that Lam's kites all have applique ...except for the tattoo ...I would think that appliques could also be thought of in the same light as panels?

just a muse


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Dolphinboy on April 07, 2010, 09:33 AM
Smooth isn't always the most aerodynamic, look at the golf ball.

That being said, I'm not sure if my  F SUL Tattoo will fly in lower wind than the regular F SUL but Lam seems to think it does :) & I believe him. He designed these kites and has the most time on them, so he should know. I doubt the difference is very much though & may be due to the slight weight savings or possibly the lower aerodynamic drag. Without extensive testing, I don't think we can get a definitive answer.

I like the kite and have flown it a bunch without any problems with durability of the Tattoo sail. I only use it in very low winds so I can't answer what would happen to the sail in higher winds.


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Allen Carter on April 07, 2010, 09:42 AM
If you're to the point where you drop this kind of money on kites, durability should be pretty low on the list of priorities.




Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: Dolphinboy on April 07, 2010, 10:17 AM
Yeah but if you do drop Fearless type coin on a kite, it better be durable and so far (for me) they have been. Anyone that has seen Lam's kites up close knows how well they are made.


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: ezme6 on April 07, 2010, 11:17 AM
Cids-
   Why don't you just ask Lam? 8)


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: tpatter on April 07, 2010, 12:12 PM
Had mine for over a year, fly it all the time in a variety of winds and aside from normal bridle wear, it looks and flys like it did when I got it.

Technical details aside - I think that the tattoo just LOOKS COOL!  :) 


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: xuzme720 on April 07, 2010, 06:14 PM
Yeah but if you do drop Fearless type coin on a kite, it better be durable and so far (for me) they have been. Anyone that has seen Lam's kites up close knows how well they are made.
I'd have to agree here...I don't want to drop that many bills and not be able to enjoy that bad boy for awhile. I do however understand longevity issues if I decide to fly my SUL in a hurricane/tornado... ::)


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: asburyparkjohn on April 08, 2010, 02:48 PM
I have not flown mine enough but asked Lam to make it fly between 1-12 mph. So I have 2PT and 3PT spreaders for the kite. On one flight in late March the wind picked up from 2-20 mph at Asbury,NJ in 15 minutes. I took it down at 10 mph or so with 2PT as I became concerned - of course. As with his kites durability is not an issue - but this kite is really in SUL winds for FULL trickability. Worrying above Light or Standard winds is irrelevant in his kiting line. Switch kites. I use the American flag as a wind guage on a nearby building in situations like of sudden weather changes. Really looking forward to more LOW WIND days with this GEM.  ;) ;) ;)


Title: Re: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...
Post by: fidelio on April 08, 2010, 04:15 PM
don't forget, for woven materials, if your sewing machine and needle are doing their job correctly they're not breaking fibers to create a hole, but rather pushing those fibers out of the way.

like you walking through a corn field, how many stalks would you trample?


Title: Re: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...
Post by: DWayne on April 08, 2010, 07:17 PM
don't forget, for woven materials, if your sewing machine and needle are doing their job correctly they're not breaking fibers to create a hole, but rather pushing those fibers out of the way.

like you walking through a corn field, how many stalks would you trample?
That's not true with coated sail cloth. They require using sharp needles that cut through the material.  ;)

Denny


Title: Re: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...
Post by: Kantaxel on April 08, 2010, 10:16 PM
WHOA THERE!
I take a nap and the the whole thread is retitled?

Whatever happened to the Fearless bashing?

Shoot!



Title: Re: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...
Post by: cids on April 09, 2010, 03:16 AM
Quote
Whatever happened to the Fearless bashing?

This is not Fearless bashing but all the kites with stitched seam bashing.  :D :D :D
I would like to say sorry to all the Fearless Lovers. I should have use the 'Re: Sail with patterns vs. sail with no pattern(stitched seam)...' as Subject Title in the first place.
I like the Fearless so much that when it comes to kite, it is the only kite that comes to my mind.  :P


Title: Re: Fearless Tattoo...
Post by: inewham on April 09, 2010, 05:21 AM
I was under the impression that additional panels allow you to get 3D shapes/curves in the sail that you cannot achieve with a single panel.  Is this right? 

If the fabric of a single panel sail is aligned with the spine/spreaders, the bias is perpendicular to the LE so even with a single panel you can get some stretching to give a bit of billow/shape just inside the LE. Its not going to happen with Icky in SUL winds* but it works with Nylon sails.

*although it is a Fearless so maybe if you're flying your SUL in 30mph...