GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: Steve Hall on April 06, 2010, 11:40 AM



Title: 4D issues
Post by: Steve Hall on April 06, 2010, 11:40 AM
Prism has a small amount of replacement nocks available but they have arranged to have more expressed in ASAP.  If you need a replacement let me know or email Prism and we will get you taken care of.  At this time given the inventory on those nocks they are aksing that you only request replacement of what is missing and once they have received more you can then get spares.
Spoke with Mark this morning about this issues.  He will be making a video available online shortly that shows how to tie the nock on (btw ... a copy of that video was also sent to the factory).  The knot they use is a clove hitch.
I just double checked mine and it is indeed a clove hitch and even after tensioning and de-tensioning 50 times (at least) it is good and snug.
Those of you that sent emails to me with your concerns/issues I have forwarded them along to Prism.  Also Prism is reading the forum to monitor the issues.
     


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: thief on April 06, 2010, 12:36 PM
what was happening with the nocks supplied?? breakage? not fitting?


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: indigo_wolf on April 06, 2010, 12:48 PM
what was happening with the nocks supplied?? breakage? not fitting?



The tension line was coming undone from the nock and the nock was going AWOL.

As Larry put it: (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=2812.30)
"When you assemble the kite and have occasion to check it out on the ground, be sure leading edge tension lines are secure to the nifty plastic end caps.  If they're not, the cap can slide off easily.  From experience, finding one of those in grass is, for all practical purposes, impossible. "

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: UPNET on April 06, 2010, 03:09 PM
Clove Hitch.

How To Tie a Clove Hitch Knot (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aewgmUeHpuE#)


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kantaxel on April 06, 2010, 04:15 PM
The knot they use is a clove hitch.
I just double checked mine and it is indeed a clove hitch and even after tensioning and de-tensioning 50 times (at least) it is good and snug.

I put my glasses on and really looked ours over yesterday..................It seems ours is tensioned from the factory very evenly, not too tight and not loose..........It is indeed a clove hitch and it seems (probably) that some are going to be right and some (maybe) not tied properly...........Can't see how it could come loose without manipulation on my part ;)

Jim


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Steve Hall on April 06, 2010, 06:37 PM
http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/4d_nock_knot.pdf (http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/4d_nock_knot.pdf)


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 07, 2010, 01:49 PM
This knot business is always confusing.  I probably should have been a boy scout when I was young.  :(

Based on the pdf does two half hitches = one clove hitch? 


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: indigo_wolf on April 07, 2010, 02:23 PM
This knot business is always confusing.  I probably should have been a boy scout when I was young.  :(

Based on the pdf does two half hitches = one clove hitch? 


Not the way I understood it (think the PDF is mixing terms).  Half hitches the knot goes around the "standing" line.... Clove hitch the knot goes around the object you are tying too.  See here (http://www.realknots.com/knots/hitches.htm)

Apparently I wasted away too much time in the BSA with frozen eggs, undercooked meat, night time sledding, wildly unstable boats, and various combustible/explosive/projectile activities.  :(

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: steve.hobart on April 08, 2010, 04:25 AM
Steve, received my 4D today in great condition.

Luckily I have been checking the forum and found that the knots on my end knocks were only one simple clove hitch which wasnt secure at all.

I simply re-tied the end knocks as per the 4D pdf. No issues now, just thought I would post to enable Prism to be aware that the QA around the end knocks seems pretty wide spread.

cheers

steve


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: spence602 on April 08, 2010, 09:46 AM
The tension line was coming undone from the nock and the nock was going AWOL.

A drop of hot glue on the LE rod (then slide the nock on) will keep it there, and allow it to be re-purposed if needed.  


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Steve Hall on April 08, 2010, 02:29 PM
A few 4D parts (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewCat&catId=63) are now available.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 10, 2010, 05:34 AM
Now that I have the knots redone on the 4D I am ready to take it out in the real world.

Another unusual thing (at least for me) is the center T.  The spreaders do not stop in the center but go all the way through.  Other kites I own have a stop or use a male/female set up to keep the spreaders from going through the T. 

Should there be a stop to hold the spreaders in place?  Since the frame is somewhat non rigid will the spreaders pop out of the center T during flight?  I am a little concerned about a sail puncture on its maiden voyage.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: xuzme720 on April 10, 2010, 06:48 AM
I haven't had anything like that happen. the LS have the marks for depth so you can be sure to keep them even. Mine are a pretty tight fit though...


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: DaveH on April 10, 2010, 06:58 AM
I don't think they'll pop out. There's some tension on them with the standoffs in place and I feel that will hold them in.  I did notice the center T was loose in its fitting and could slide right or left, and I assume all the way out. I just put some CA on it.  Problem solved.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: ko on April 10, 2010, 09:24 AM
as with daves CT my ferule was loose when i p[ulled it out i noticed a slight kink or dent in itto keep the speaders from sliding thru i also used a drop of ca to hold the ferule in place u might want to check the ferule i ordered a n extra ct as it looks like it could easily break at the kink


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: jeepersjoey on April 10, 2010, 07:13 PM
Lucky for me I was able to fly the 4D most of the day at a local kite festival.

After one particularly LONG session of no wind I went to check on the 4D.  Even though I had retied per the PRISM instruction, one of the nocks was loose, but still attached with one knot.

I recommend you keep a close lookie at this part.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: kitelover on April 11, 2010, 06:43 AM
I haven't seen a new 4D yet, so don't know what the fittings look or work like, but is there some reason they can't just be glued on?  With any other kite, if the nocks aren't glued and the bungie or tie down breaks, the nock is usually lost. What's the big deal with this one?


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: fidelio on April 11, 2010, 06:55 AM
Quote from: [url]http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=350[/url]
To make it a cinch to put together, Prism designed a clever little wingtip fitting that instantly tensions and de-tensions the leading edge with no knots to fumble with.

at least this was the idea


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 11, 2010, 07:00 AM
Although I like the 4D the nock seems more like a gimmick than a revolutionary concept.  If I loose them I will probably go to a traditional fixed nock as a replacement.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: DaveH on April 11, 2010, 07:27 AM
I really like how the nock works because its so quick and easy to tension the LE.  But  I don't trust the clove hitch or any other knot to hold.  Mine came tied in clove hitches but each side was tensioned dramatically differently, so I had to re tie them anyway.  I got them tensioned evenly, tied them off with the proper clove hitch and then lightly covered the knot with a little CA.  Didn't make a mess, looks nice and there no way its ever coming undone. 


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 20, 2010, 01:06 PM
Took the 4D out today and the center T has become loose.  Based on some of the earlier posts I know this now needs to be glued.

How about the bridle attachments to the leading edge.  Two of them came loose today.  Looks like they are tied with a half hitch.  Is that how there are coming in?  I am starting to become paranoid double checking each knot to be sure it is still tight before and after flying it.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: UPNET on April 20, 2010, 06:55 PM
Got my replacement nock from Prism the other day. I like the concept. A skeletonized nock, that stays attached...(kind of). Tied mine back on...will see if the patented Clove hitch works. I am guessing we are beta testers for this kite. So we will keep track of what parts work....and what parts don't. And alert the proper authorities in Seattle, when necessary.


We are Prism proud!   ;D      OORAH!


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: DonCrash on April 22, 2010, 03:48 PM
Check the knots on the Bridle to LE. They'll stay, once tied correctly. I've double checked mine and only had to re-tie one, wasnt quite tied like the rest.

For the nock, i've decided to add a reverse clove after the first two. Or is it, a reverse half-hitch after the first two. There seems to be enough line for it.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 22, 2010, 04:52 PM
Check the knots on the Bridle to LE. They'll stay, once tied correctly. I've double checked mine and only had to re-tie one, wasnt quite tied like the rest.

For the nock, i've decided to add a reverse clove after the first two. Or is it, a reverse half-hitch after the first two. There seems to be enough line for it.

I checked them today and made sure everything was snug.  No problems!!  Steve and some other flyers also suggested using wax.  Overall I like this kite.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: xuzme720 on April 22, 2010, 05:03 PM
Once I redid my knots on the nocks per the Steve  ;), I've had zero loosening. And have had no bridle issues at all...


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kantaxel on April 23, 2010, 06:40 AM
As with any mass produced kite, the knowlegable flyer will always check knots, ferrules and bridles before the very first flight and occasionally thereafter......It's the nature of the beast, as they say.  The novice soon becomes educated after the first failure or two......(or if he/she reads the owner's manual) 8)


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: DaveH on April 23, 2010, 07:10 AM
As with any mass produced kite, the knowlegable flyer will always check knots, ferrules and bridles before the very first flight and occasionally thereafter......It's the nature of the beast, as they say.  The novice soon becomes educated after the first failure or two......(or if he/she reads the owner's manual) 8)

True story.

One of my bridle connections was loose when I first opened the case, but I tied it like the rest and haven't had any trouble in a number of flying sessions.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Kitemac on April 23, 2010, 07:42 AM
The novice soon becomes educated after the first failure or two......(or if he/she reads the owner's manual) 8)

Being a novice (as if you didn't know by my questions) I learned quite a bit in the role of beta tester.  Being sure to check the original knots on the wing tips did not keep them from getting loose again.  Checking the wrong knot over and over again doesn't make it right.  The two half hitches did solve the problem.  The knots on the leading edge were different than I have seen on my other kites which were a lark head type arrangement.  I am not sure even if Prism did have the manuals ready these questions would be answered.

End of the day I lost no parts, didn't break anything, learned more than I would have if I waited for a year and have a nice kite.  Seems like I came out ahead on the deal.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: bmfinc on May 05, 2010, 07:22 AM
I really like how the nock works because its so quick and easy to tension the LE.  But  I don't trust the clove hitch or any other knot to hold.  Mine came tied in clove hitches but each side was tensioned dramatically differently, so I had to re tie them anyway.  I got them tensioned evenly, tied them off with the proper clove hitch and then lightly covered the knot with a little CA.  Didn't make a mess, looks nice and there no way its ever coming undone. 

What is CA?  Is everyone doing this or are most knots holding on their own?  Thanks!


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: Boogie on May 05, 2010, 07:50 AM
I really like how the nock works because its so quick and easy to tension the LE.  But  I don't trust the clove hitch or any other knot to hold.  Mine came tied in clove hitches but each side was tensioned dramatically differently, so I had to re tie them anyway.  I got them tensioned evenly, tied them off with the proper clove hitch and then lightly covered the knot with a little CA.  Didn't make a mess, looks nice and there no way its ever coming undone. 

What is CA?  Is everyone doing this or are most knots holding on their own?  Thanks!

CA glue, used commonly in hobbies and crafts.  After flying my 4D a few times, I noticed the knots starting to come loose and they were tied with the clove hitch.  They aren't coming loose at an alarming rate really, just happened to noticed they were giving a little, so if I have to make a walk of shame or whatever, I just give it a quick once-over...which is what you should normally do anyways.  I'm a bit reluctant to secure the knots with glue or anything in the event I need to replace the nock, I don't want to ruin the string or whatever that ties the sail to the nock. 


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: thief on May 05, 2010, 07:52 AM
CA: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyanoacrylate)
super glue....

personally for kite applications i use Zap-a-gap http://www.supergluecorp.com/zap/zap-glues/zap-gap (http://www.supergluecorp.com/zap/zap-glues/zap-gap) because as opposed to super glue Z.A.G. acts as a gap filler as well creating a better bond....works great for securing ferrules!


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: DaveH on May 05, 2010, 08:01 AM
I really like how the nock works because its so quick and easy to tension the LE.  But  I don't trust the clove hitch or any other knot to hold.  Mine came tied in clove hitches but each side was tensioned dramatically differently, so I had to re tie them anyway.  I got them tensioned evenly, tied them off with the proper clove hitch and then lightly covered the knot with a little CA.  Didn't make a mess, looks nice and there no way its ever coming undone. 

What is CA?  Is everyone doing this or are most knots holding on their own?  Thanks!

I'm pretty sure I'm the only one using this approach.  You have to be really careful not to ruin the nock. Also, a spray on accelerator ( like ZIP Kicker) provides an instant cure, keeping the glue from going anywhere.  But if you're not careful with that, the force of the spray will actually blow the glue all around and then it instantly cures wherever it ends up. 

I use CA extensively in other applications (designing and scratch building RC aircraft) and knew I could get the results I wanted.  My nocks are for sure not going anywhere, but I don't recommend this approach unless you have some experience with this glue and are willing to replace the attachment line if needed.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: bmfinc on May 05, 2010, 08:18 AM
Thanks for the clarification!   :)  I think I might try securing a real small elastic band over the knot and the nock.  It would be easy to take off and would hopefully keep me from always thinking about it.


Title: Re: 4D issues
Post by: GWTWNewb on May 12, 2010, 05:21 PM
Prism: some assembly may be required.  ::)