GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: zippy8 on April 12, 2010, 08:32 PM



Title: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 12, 2010, 08:32 PM
That would be the natural progression from #14 that ended last December, right ?

I'm just saying.  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: DaveH on April 12, 2010, 08:34 PM
very good news  ;)


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: steve.hobart on April 12, 2010, 08:51 PM
look fwd to it :)

steve


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Jared on April 12, 2010, 09:24 PM
Virtual 0b1111 ... after all, it's virtual.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: anOldMan on April 13, 2010, 12:21 AM
Virtual 0b1111 ... after all, it's virtual.

I guess that the above is only worth half a byte! Virtually speaking.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: chilese on April 13, 2010, 08:56 AM
I haven't been laughed at in a while.

Maybe it's time to give it a go again.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 13, 2010, 11:43 AM
I think VF should raise the bar and require that people know how to fly.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: JimB on April 13, 2010, 11:47 AM
Dude.

Whip it out.

 ;) :D ;D



Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: chilese on April 13, 2010, 12:26 PM
JW, actually flying the kite for more than 2 seconds is totally frowned upon. At least in VF.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 13, 2010, 12:43 PM
JW, actually flying the kite for more than 2 seconds is totally frowned upon. At least in VF.
Please show your work.  >:(

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: chilese on April 13, 2010, 12:51 PM
I'm not quite sure what you mean by "show your work" Mike.

Just rewatched Davide's winning entry for VF14.

The longest "flying" I saw was less than 2 seconds.

To win, the pilot must constantly be doing tricks with as little flying as possible.

I am open to your inputs on this.  :)

It may be called freestyle, but you won't finish high without lots of tricks, which translates into very little flying.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 13, 2010, 01:29 PM
To win, the pilot must constantly be doing tricks with as little flying as possible.
Tricks are flying. I'm sure that we've covered this before somewhere  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Kantaxel on April 13, 2010, 02:11 PM
We could cover it again, couldn't we? :-\

I always heard from the very beginning of my attempting to learn tricks, that one must get comfortable with the kite NOT flying, first.  Isn't that what a stall is?

thanks,
Jim


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Jared on April 13, 2010, 03:24 PM
Didn't someone get mocked last year for flying in "Virtual Precision", instead of Virtual Freestyle?


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 13, 2010, 04:38 PM
Yeah, but they only got mocked by me so it hardly counts  ;D

If anyone wishes to see an example of a solid minute's worth of "tricks" with the complete absence of "flying" then I can think of no better example than the VF10 entry of a certain Mr. Steve Hall.  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Steve Hall on April 13, 2010, 05:00 PM
 :-*
http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075 (http://video.yahoo.com/watch/3835287/10478075)
That's not flying, it's falling with style.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: DaveH on April 13, 2010, 06:07 PM
.....I need to sit down.... ???


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: tpatter on April 13, 2010, 07:35 PM
Its more of fun to participate sort of thing. 

There is a big difference between the top 5 guys and ummm.......well..............the rest of us shall we say.  Personally, I shoot to get in the top 51%!  :)


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: xuzme720 on April 13, 2010, 08:11 PM
I'm with Dave...  + ???


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: WinterDaze on April 13, 2010, 08:29 PM
I know I'll never win it, and I do it mainly to make up the numbers  ;) but it's also fun to see what everyone's up to with their progression.

As to the 'needing to know how to fly/trick', I figure the judging will reflect it, and all it costs is the time to watch, (plus a little bandwidth) I'd just like to think that people were making their best effort, and that they at least put in a bit of time to get their best flying down, I don't like hearing that they only shot a short bit of video cos they didn't have the time...

If you don't have the time, don't enter... 'There must be standards, it's now an institution, and deserves a little respect!'

I'll be there, with bells on.

WD


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 13, 2010, 08:46 PM
Its more of fun to participate sort of thing. 
One of the many charms of VF is that it can be whatever you wish it to be; if you want to script a routine, practice, practice, practice and film it in glorious HD.... go ahead. If you want to point a cameraphone at the sky and flail about.... that too is acceptable.

There are usually prizes available just for taking part and sometimes nothing more than bragging rights for "winning".

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: mikenchico on April 13, 2010, 11:36 PM
If anyone wishes to see an example of a solid minute's worth of "tricks" with the complete absence of "flying" then I can think of no better example than the VF10 entry of a certain Mr. Steve Hall.  ;)

Mike.

ahhh... that would be 'a solid minute of "trick"'  ;) 

well no I guess you're right, there was some Cascade and some Fountain there huh?



Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 14, 2010, 06:04 AM
Its more of fun to participate sort of thing. 
If you want to point a cameraphone at the sky and flail about.... that too is acceptable.

Mike.

Why is that acceptable? 


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: DaveH on April 14, 2010, 06:08 AM
Its more of fun to participate sort of thing. 

There is a big difference between the top 5 guys and ummm.......well..............the rest of us shall we say.  Personally, I shoot to get in the top 51%!  :)

+1

Its just fun to be involved.  What I found most helpful was rating the other vids. Everyone is kind of in the same boat, trying to do their best and dealing with the challenge of getting it all to come together.  You just can't help but learn a lot.  


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Jared on April 14, 2010, 10:44 AM
Its more of fun to participate sort of thing. 
If you want to point a cameraphone at the sky and flail about.... that too is acceptable.

Mike.

Why is that acceptable? 

Because there's no barrier to entry for VF.  The more flyers who participate, the better the overall experience for everyone involved.  If I had waited until I was "good enough" to compete, I still wouldn't have entered VF.  But I've flown VF11, 12 and 13, and had a blast doing it each time.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 14, 2010, 11:13 AM
But I've flown VF11, 12 and 13, and had a blast doing it each time.
And who knows, maybe one day you might not just win a prize but receive it too  :-[

Mike,
sorry, didn't know, working on it. Again.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: tpatter on April 14, 2010, 11:38 AM
It was only a random drawing win - but I heartily enjoy my coffee each morning with my (extremely rare) VF mug.  :)


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 14, 2010, 11:50 AM
ahhh... that would be 'a solid minute of "trick"'  ;) 

well no I guess you're right, there was some Cascade and some Fountain there huh?
What about the Tip Stand and Coin Toss at the start ? Not to mention a Puddle (Cascade goes down, Fountain goes up, Puddle just stays there).  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Beachbum on April 14, 2010, 04:12 PM
May I direct everyone's attention to this:

http://andywardley.com/kites/reckites/airfoiled/tent.html (http://andywardley.com/kites/reckites/airfoiled/tent.html)

WHAT CAMP ARE YOU IN?


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: fidelio on April 14, 2010, 04:31 PM
if the kite is off the ground, it's flying.(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/2443/hypere.gif)
if the kite is on the ground, it's "groundwork".(http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/4924/krakrani.gif)


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 14, 2010, 04:34 PM
You really need to read the entire thread (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.kites/browse_thread/thread/57104ff1b626bcbf/161e06bd883347d4#161e06bd883347d4), complete with "will you please stop changing the bloody thread title", to enjoy it in context. It really was a classic confrontation of old guard versus new wave; Mike Jones of Mirage kites fame versus Andy Wardley of his own fame, only back in 1998.

I'm not sure if I miss those days or are glad to see the back of them. Worth noting that people were still talking smack about Dodd even then  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: ko on April 14, 2010, 04:47 PM
 some people just like to fly i think this contest will push me to try a little harder for sure tom has proggressed way beyond were i am at right now but so what i think i'll giver a try thanx mike KO ps might have to use my phone


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 14, 2010, 09:17 PM
I've been arguing for a minimum level of skill in kite comps forever.  Doesn't it sound reasonablel to get halfway decent at something before you compete?  Why not take a little pride and get your skill level up before you go on stage to show people what you can do. Why bore people with beginner level flying?

It's like those talentless people that try out for the TV talent shows. Everyone just laughs at them or thinks they're an idiot. 

Mike, you could at least screen the videos and make a special section for the beginners or reject the videos and tell people to learn to fly before wasting your time.  I'm not saying to raise the bar to french guru level, just a reasonable skill level for a freestyle comp.

Flame away.  :D


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: mikenchico on April 14, 2010, 09:50 PM
Flame away.  :D

At least you know it's coming  ;) 

If nobody competes until they can win then competitions become a one person event, and since there is no joy in a first place out of one competitor even they stop competing. Competitions are about the comraderie, sharing the joy, supporting your competitors. It's not about winning or losing and it's not a waste of anybodys time to have to sit through the last place finishers performance, if that was everybodys opinion then there would also only be one competitor again. I've been field filler in many competions and I've beat the best in the world in others, I've always gone out of my way to show respect & encouragement for the efforts of those who beat me or who I beat.

I respect your views on many things John, hopefully you're just seeding a discussion on this one.



Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: tpatter on April 14, 2010, 10:03 PM
Folks have good and  bad days - I've seen master level flyers at comps that certainly weren't cutting it on that particular day.  Bad bumpy wind varying from 4-12 mph can make anyone look bad.

I do agree that a better skill level ranking system would be welcome in sport kite competitions.  Perhaps something like "trials" where you get scored and ranked early on for the season.  It would also be useful for folks who have some flying ability, but are not sure what level they should compete at.

Anyhow, I think most folks put their best foot forward for VF and I certainly respect that regardless of the final result.   I can only think offhand of a couple of cases where the entrant did little to nothing of interest.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 15, 2010, 10:54 AM
For those not au fait with Virtual Freestyle in its 6th year the very idea is to encourage people to participate. The bar is not merely set low, it is absent entirely. If you can keep a kite in frame for 60 seconds (more or less) and don't mind exposing yourself to potential public ridicule then you're good. The main prize in each round has never been for the winner but something all entrants have an actual chance of taking away.

The really top guys put out stellar videos (a personal favourite (http://www.kitebox.net/vf-video/VF12/VF12%20-%20Martin%20Madsen.wmv)) but it's rare that any video doesn't have something of note. Even if it is mediocre, it's over soon.  ;D

It's a good format. It works as it is. I suspect it won't be changing soon.

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 15, 2010, 11:28 AM
Flame away.  :D

At least you know it's coming  ;) 

If nobody competes until they can win then competitions become a one person event, and since there is no joy in a first place out of one competitor even they stop competing.

I didn't mean everyone had to be good enough to win. I'd like to see a reasonable skill level is all.  It's like some of the VF competitors take no pride in what they're putting out. Some of the videos even have crashes.

How about this, if you're a VF competitor, ask yourself if a kite enthusiast would be interested in watching you fly around for 60 seconds. You don't have to turn in a video just because you can. Why not work towards something people would enjoy watching. That doesn't mean you have to be a french master. Basic tricks done well can be great to watch. 



Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Allen Carter on April 15, 2010, 12:16 PM
So it's back to the same old issue. Are comps for spectators or for the fliers?

I think comps are more about having a good time with your peers than about impressing a spectator. In VF, all the people who enter are peers, regardless of skill. Everyone who enters has as much fun as they choose to have. If they were worrying about boring a spectator they probably wouldn't submit an entry.

In other words, it aint about what the John Weldens of the world want to see.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 15, 2010, 12:34 PM
So it's back to the same old issue. Are comps for spectators or for the fliers?

I think comps are more about having a good time with your peers than about impressing a spectator. In VF, all the people who enter are peers, regardless of skill. Everyone who enters has as much fun as they choose to have. If they were worrying about boring a spectator they probably wouldn't submit an entry.

In other words, it aint about what the John Weldens of the world want to see.

I don't see why you can't have a good time with your peers while impressing spectators. It especially makes sense for VF since people can film on their own and shoot video until they get something interesting for people to watch.

In other words, you are retarded.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: thief on April 15, 2010, 12:42 PM
and the downward spiral of a good thread has started...........


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Steve Hall on April 15, 2010, 01:06 PM
Hold your thoughts on whether you enter or not until we get done cookin' up some "special incentives" for the participants.
 ;D


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: mikenchico on April 15, 2010, 08:53 PM
... the very idea is to encourage people to participate. The bar is not merely set low, it is absent entirely ...

The main prize in each round has never been for the winner but something all entrants have an actual chance of taking away ...

It's a good format. It works as it is. I suspect it won't be changing soon.

Mike.


It's a great format, acclaim for the winner, prizes just for entering and a good time for all. I'd hope you get so many entries that people get bored watching them all. Should I ever decide to participate I'll start it off with a crash or something boring like flying precision so those folks can X-Out and not waste their time.



Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: John Welden on April 15, 2010, 09:31 PM
Just giving you guys a hard time.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: steve.hobart on April 16, 2010, 12:12 AM
I thought that VF was all about participation..........

...I'm certainly not comp standard was just going to enter for fun and to seek feedback from others....

maybe I should give it a miss.. :(

cheers

steve


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: RobB on April 16, 2010, 12:22 AM
I always enjoy seeing the entries, watch them all, some twice. Never seen a boring or bad video yet. Now that I've gathered up enough skill to keep the kite in the frame for 60 seconds, I think I might enter to make the rest of entries look that much better !  :D


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: steve.hobart on April 16, 2010, 01:11 AM
Maybe that is our calling Rob!  :D

cheers

steve


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 16, 2010, 10:54 AM
Never seen a boring or bad video yet.
Without wishing disrespect on anyone else there have been one or two poor entries. My one and only to date was an offence to flying standards, fr'instance. However even though I know I can do better that didn't stop me from entering as I said that I would and wasn't going to let anything as trivial as no wind stop me.

A genuine "here we jolly well go" announcement will be made soon. Prizes might well be available  ;)

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: zippy8 on April 16, 2010, 04:07 PM
Just to make a pre-announcement prior to the actual announcement....  ;)

VF15 will run from May 1st to June 12th with judging to end by June 26th. We have some prizes  ??? lined up but don't be shy about offering some more if you feel like it. Videos will be hosted at Kitebox so the official entry will have a max. size of 20MB (so they can be mailed) but feel free to find your own space for a larger version if you like. There must be a 20MB version as the entry though.

Rules will be classic VF - start on the ground, 60~90 seconds continuous, stay in frame as best you can.

I might consider a public vote as well this time.

After May 1st feel free to e-mail (virtualfreestyle@gmail.com) your intention to join in and the actual entries themselves.

More proper info. to follow closer to the official kick off.

Mike.


Title: Re: Virtual Freestyle 15
Post by: Steve Hall on April 24, 2010, 04:25 PM
It could happen.