GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Quad Line Kites (aka "the dark side") => Topic started by: Kitemac on April 16, 2010, 09:53 AM



Title: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Kitemac on April 16, 2010, 09:53 AM
There are a number of brands in the different price ranges to compete for the dual kite market.  I do not see a clear cut winner here.  Each has their own set of loyal followers.

The Revolution kites seem to alone in the race.  I realize the kite design is very good but why do the Revs seem to be the kite of choice with no close competition?


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: thief on April 16, 2010, 10:14 AM
personal personal personal...

i feel that Decas are better than Revs...but that is just my two cents.........

Rev has done very well of producing them....a quality product that is pretty easily accesable...easy to fly..easy to assemble....and you see a LOT of them....that all helps....

i would like to try New Tech's new quad...think it looks very cool....

have flown spirits....not bad....liked them....

the Mosquito from HQ looks cool too....

And of course do not forget the Skydancer....another long time favorite of many flyers...



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on April 16, 2010, 10:33 AM
I realize the kite design is very good but why do the Revs seem to be the kite of choice with no close competition?

There's a reason for this but let's not go into that here.  ;)

In my experience, quadline flyers = Rev. flyers with no more than a few dissenting voices. There are alternatives but they seem to be shunned as not being The One True Path.

(http://www.windfiredesigns.com/images/MikeEmeryFlameSky.jpg) Flame

(http://www.drachenkiste.de/media/kamikaze-new-1-red-black.jpg) Kamikaze Butterfly

(http://www.aviatorkites.net/Bilder/Knockout_by_MarkO2_800x600.JPG) Knockout

Variety exists, it's just that it doesn't seem to be that welcome.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: thief on April 16, 2010, 10:39 AM
and lets not forget the Airbow!


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Gamelord on April 16, 2010, 10:52 AM
I think the main reason is that there really isn't anything out there that is substantially "better" than the Revolution.  Not to say that there aren't some great quad line kites on the market - but can they do things better than what the Rev can or have more versatility?  Usually not - maybe close but that's about it.

If there was a kite to be produced that had better control, better precision, easier to set up, easier to store, more interchangeable by the end user, better quality, made in the USA, and at a cost that was the same or less than the Rev then you would have some stiff competition to the Rev.  Until then, Rev's seem to be at the top of the list for most pilots.

This opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it. :)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: ae on April 16, 2010, 10:55 AM
I personaly like the old QuadraFlex better then a Rev. Sadly they where only produced for a handfull of units ages ago.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: chilese on April 16, 2010, 11:37 AM
As far as my limited skill sets have experienced....

The Volksquad holds an inverted hover better than a Rev and the shape is more interesting.

In all other flight modes, the Rev is better.

Inverted hover:
(http://lh4.ggpht.com/_3waCPW86CRA/S6HWz0o_SYI/AAAAAAAAVAI/QZSjEQIlIoA/s400/6060%20VolksQuad.jpg) (http://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/KiteParty82010#5449873209887246722)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: fidelio on April 16, 2010, 12:42 PM
(http://www.revkites.com/forum/public/style_images/1_logo2.png)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: mikenchico on April 16, 2010, 01:06 PM
I like the Spirit for a beginner kite, especially for us old dual line dogs, Rev's don't respond well push/pull until you understand them and the when & why to do so. The Spirit can be flown by holding the handles vertical and using a push/pull, not well but it does fly, so you get a familiar reaction on the kite when you revert to dual movements in a lapse moment. It is a pain to assemble though.

When the Revolution came out they had covered all the bases, I was awed by the included video, figure 8 winder etc. It was the most thought out product introduction I've ever been exposed to.

I've flown other designs besides the Spirit that I also liked better then the Rev for my skill level and expectations. But most infringed on Revolutions patents.

Revolution did a great job with the kite, a great job saturating the market and getting exposure and a great job of enforcing their patents (maybe a bit overzealous (a lot?)) But they earned their market place and continue to actively promote it and kiting in general.



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Kitemac on April 16, 2010, 01:18 PM
But most infringed on Revolutions patents.

Do most patents have a limited life?  If so I would be curious to see how long the patent is good for.  Competition brings innovation.



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: indigo_wolf on April 16, 2010, 02:45 PM
There are alternatives but they seem to be shunned as not being The One True Path.


I have always loved the lines of the DropKick... not as precise as the Rev but....
(http://www.elliot.de/hp_e/images/dropkickrot3_462.jpg)

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Kantaxel on April 16, 2010, 03:40 PM
There's a reason for this but let's not go into that here.  ;)

In my experience, quadline flyers = Rev. flyers with no more than a few dissenting voices. There are alternatives but they seem to be shunned as not being The One True Path.
Variety exists, it's just that it doesn't seem to be that welcome.

Mike.

Doesn't seem to be too much different amongst dual-liner ranks either.................just seems to be more flers on the 'light side'  :o


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on April 16, 2010, 03:55 PM
Doesn't seem to be too much different amongst dual-liner ranks either.................
Oh yes there is. I don't think I've ever heard of a quadline team that doesn't fly "Revs" (note the inverted commas) but the teams at the WSKC aren't showing the same uniformity.

If the call went out for "the best dualline kite" there could be many right answers. I reckon the answer from the quadline community would merely be a discussion of which Rev was better than another.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Moe on April 16, 2010, 04:35 PM
Well there's these great kites available on eBay.  Not sure why you don't see them discussed here.  Maybe it's because the guy doesn't sponsor the board... ;)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Sherman Myers on April 16, 2010, 05:16 PM
Revs are great to fly, and as others have said not much does it all as well as a Rev. However, there is one kite that I believe fly every bid as well, if not better, than the Rev -- Joel Scholz's Beautiful Evil!

Love that kite. 


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: thief on April 16, 2010, 06:04 PM
another big thing during the early 90's was the east coast/west cost split.
revolution = west coast
guildworks = east coast

also do not leave out TC Ultras!!!!


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Jim Foster on April 16, 2010, 06:43 PM
I have flown several other quads.

I wouldn't even think of trying to get in line in a team fly with any of them.   Not one.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: browndude3649 on April 16, 2010, 09:41 PM
What about the pig?!

Flying Pig - A quad revolution-like kite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KG8OF4XtR9o#lq-hq)

I heard Rev has parts made in Mexico and shipped for final assem. in US. True/False?


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: JimB on April 16, 2010, 09:46 PM
I remember the TC Ultra people, back in the day, making the argument that other designs were pretty much excluded, or at least handicapped, by the Rev-bias of the compulsory figures.  

Doesn't seem to be too much different amongst dual-liner ranks either.................
Oh yes there is. I don't think I've ever heard of a quadline team that doesn't fly "Revs" (note the inverted commas) but the teams at the WSKC aren't showing the same uniformity.

If the call went out for "the best dualline kite" there could be many right answers. I reckon the answer from the quadline community would merely be a discussion of which Rev was better than another.

Mike.


another big thing during the early 90's was the east coast/west cost split.
revolution = west coast
guildworks = east coast

also do not leave out TC Ultras!!!!



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: tpatter on April 16, 2010, 09:56 PM
Call me crazy, but I always thought that a big round model might be fun.  I guess it would need a big arrow on it so that you could tell what end is up, but I would think that hovering would be a snap!  :)

Or perhaps Chilese's trash-bag rectangular (or was it square?) quadline.  Anyone still got the video link?

Anyhow, the unique key to the Rev design seems to be the "flex" in the design - for example, you can have one side pulled forward while having the other side pushed back. In effect, you have many vectors of control that other 4-line kites just don't offer.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: RobB on April 17, 2010, 01:30 AM
I always liked this one...

A Mouse Pointer in the real World (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEQI0bxoIA4#lq-lq2-hq)





Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: tonycarl60 on April 17, 2010, 01:43 AM
Although not even close to a rev, I really like my Parastunter quad foil. It's 1.4 meters of fun. Flies like a duelly, unbreakable, tricks sorta like a rev but with the ability to collapse the sail at will, which the rev can't do unless it does a figure 9 :)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: monkey on April 17, 2010, 09:49 AM
One difference that nobody has seemed to pick up on in this thread is pretty straight forward.

Almost without exception, the other quads are all pretty much symmetrical in their flight. Flying them forwards and backwards is really much the same thing. They are equally adept in either direction. Revs are very different beasts in this way, forward flight and reverse flight are don't behave in the same manner at all.

The point with respect to the compulsory figures is dead on tho, they are weighted towards Revs for the most part though, "most" quads can work their way through these without any issue, but, ya, they'd be a bit of a handful to pull off on a TC Ultra.

Personally, I enjoy flying any of the quads out there, but, obviously I have a huge preference towards revs...  :-)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiten00b on April 17, 2010, 09:58 AM
Rev is the Microsoft of the kite world
it's not necessarily the best made or the prettiest, but it's what most people use


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on April 17, 2010, 10:35 AM
Almost without exception, the other quads are all pretty much symmetrical in their flight.
Apart from the Flame.

And the Kamikaze Butterfly.

And the.... etc. etc.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: rxburner on April 17, 2010, 04:09 PM
there is a close second to a Rev.......
Your Second Rev....
Rx


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: KiteLife on April 17, 2010, 10:33 PM
The point with respect to the compulsory figures is dead on tho, they are weighted towards Revs for the most part though, "most" quads can work their way through these without any issue, but, ya, they'd be a bit of a handful to pull off on a TC Ultra.
A bit like dual line compulsories being weighted toward deltas, being overly difficult or impossible on flexifoils or diamonds. :)

I'm just saying.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: JimB on April 17, 2010, 10:38 PM
I was just mentioning.. Course, then you have a guy like Dennis Smith who did extremely well flying the TC's.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: KiteLife on April 17, 2010, 11:45 PM
Call me crazy, but I always thought that a big round model might be fun.  I guess it would need a big arrow on it so that you could tell what end is up, but I would think that hovering would be a snap!  :)
Sedgwick did this with his YFO (original - and better version of the UFO)...

He has little colored arrow shapes so he can keep track of orientation.

Not much for fine control, but it's a hell of a lot of fun to watch him work with them. :)

I can't seem to find a vid at the moment, sorry.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on April 18, 2010, 10:35 AM
A bit like dual line compulsories being weighted toward deltas, being overly difficult or impossible on flexifoils or diamonds. :)

I'm just saying.
Anyone can make a delta. Flexifoil made several. Even Trlby made them.

Only one company can make a Rev. OK, several companies make "Revs" but.... only one should.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: thief on April 18, 2010, 02:41 PM
A bit like dual line compulsories being weighted toward deltas, being overly difficult or impossible on flexifoils or diamonds. :)

I'm just saying.
Anyone can make a delta. Flexifoil made several. Even Trlby made them.

Only one company can make a Rev. OK, several companies make "Revs" but.... only one should.

Mike.
and rev even made a dual line too............


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: KaoS on April 18, 2010, 04:33 PM
and rev even made a dual line too............

At least two!  One (can't remember it's name) designed by Ron Reich in the mid 90's and the Phase II by Dodd in around 1998


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kitelover on April 19, 2010, 05:42 AM
For whoever asked about the pig....It's an asymetrical shape so any kind of precision is pretty sloppy. It's different and fun to play with though. Since a local flier can't seem to forget the movie Deliverance, I usually leave mine at home. So far, nothing seems to beat a Rev.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: DaveS on April 21, 2010, 12:21 AM
and rev even made a dual line too............

At least two!  One (can't remember it's name) designed by Ron Reich in the mid 90's and the Phase II by Dodd in around 1998
The one you can't remember was the "Rev Classic", which was a six foot delta with Rev spars. Alan Nagau was also involved in its design.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiteslinger on April 21, 2010, 04:46 AM
close 2nds......

  alindino sword   and Brassington angle quad {but it lack any good reverse}


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: layangman on April 28, 2010, 11:02 PM
Allow me to add another solid quad kite, a pretty low-key kite framed in Skyshark, Icarex sail:
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii257/layangman/Q4/CIMG0132.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii257/layangman/Q4/CIMG0133.jpg)
(http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii257/layangman/Q4/CIMG0134.jpg)

Here's video of its maiden flight in Singapore in shifty winds (5mph). I was a bit apprehensive with it, as the handles are different, held more to the center rather than near the top as in regular REV handles.  I think with my practice with it, its a super nice kite with very precise and smooth flight:

Quattro Kite (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUuSXA-UCjQ#lq-lq2-hq)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on May 16, 2010, 12:41 AM
Skyknife ?

(http://stegmich.de/dratasch-4L-06.jpg)

Looks a little blunt to me.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kitelover on May 16, 2010, 07:31 AM
That's different. Looks like a Supersonic with spoilers. Do you know the purpose or how it flies?


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: zippy8 on May 16, 2010, 07:41 AM
Do you know the purpose or how it flies?

Not a clue. I just ran across it (http://stegmich.de/tag/skyknife/) while looking for something else and thought it might be of interest to others.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: HiFly on May 18, 2010, 09:32 AM
That's different. Looks like a Supersonic with spoilers. Do you know the purpose or how it flies?

Skyknife indoor

Indoor mit Musik (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MQf06Dg3f6Y#lq-lq2-hq-vhq-hd)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiteslinger on May 18, 2010, 06:55 PM
nice ......


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Dano on May 18, 2010, 08:17 PM
nice ......

Yes it was..... Very Nice!  :)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: mikenchico on May 18, 2010, 09:12 PM
Sweet video, interesting framing, thanks



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: david barnby on September 07, 2013, 02:45 PM
searching for skydancers got me here - wow, the last few posts have quads i never heard of and then there are 4 liners in my stash i have to get out and check because i think they are not mentioned. worried now that i won't remember their names even once i pull them out

woe is me  :( -  there was a French thing i brought to shoreline years ago. big brother, you still have a picture?



Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: chilese on September 07, 2013, 03:55 PM
Was this it little brother?

Subvision
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Fr9iFomOh48/S2iveh0cT_I/AAAAAAAAMQU/Cxg-oSFPnCs/s800/03%2520subvision.JPG) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/20022001Kites#5433785889431769074)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: david barnby on September 08, 2013, 12:51 AM
are thanks - but that was/is a german kite and is not shoreline

called the "vision"

there was a crazy quad line kite that we tried to tame at shoreline - it looked like a propeller. marvelous thing once we got it to stop spinning


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: skb on September 08, 2013, 06:20 AM
I've seen a few propeller shaped Quadline kites, but a quick search only found this one by Hans Frydendall (http://www.kitelife.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Kites-Line-v10-1.pdf#page=12&zoom=auto,0,762) (.pdf scan of Spring '93 KiteLines magazine, hosted by KiteLife.com (http://www.kitelife.com/))


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiteslinger on September 08, 2013, 08:46 AM
Brassington ..Angel quad

(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/9702756726_69f1f484db_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55348860@N04/9702756726/)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiteslinger on September 08, 2013, 08:47 AM
decas

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7400/9699543985_3144e16ec1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55348860@N04/9699543985/)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: kiteslinger on September 08, 2013, 08:49 AM
Aladino sword

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8527/8452656475_6b030f6ed1_b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/55348860@N04/8452656475/)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: joew on September 09, 2013, 05:19 AM
Meric Munday's Symphony.


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: chilese on September 09, 2013, 08:05 AM
Sir Barnby:

Shoreline photo, my bad on the Vision (marked Sub-Vision on data)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-c7xni3-zCU4/S2P7UlBDboI/AAAAAAAAILY/J7tIBHWgXCE/s800/5553%2520propeller%2520bridle.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432461906491436674)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-fB26TISk_b4/S2P66hKl5tI/AAAAAAAAILM/JT6RYQgMdqk/s800/5547%2520flower%2520good.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432461458781103826)

Three more start here (photos rearranged so that all 6 are in order):
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-iLy8YrhbehA/S2P6pn2oBqI/AAAAAAAAIK0/HmIqk28f-fE/s800/5501%2520flower.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432461168518629026)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: david barnby on September 09, 2013, 05:32 PM
that's it - thanks big brother

look at some of those flyers!!!  some great friends there

and look at Danw filling up his lens with wonder

i think that was a sub vision btw - i think i am wrong  the sub has the horseshoe tendancy and the non sub more straight. i will get them out over the weekend (as i promise myself so often)  :-\


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: thief on September 09, 2013, 05:33 PM
subvision is also smaller isn't?


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: HiFly on September 10, 2013, 06:14 AM
the subvision had another design
(http://kitec.net/ksf/img_ksf-grafik/kite-gifs/all_subvision.gif)
http://kitec.net/ksf/kites/subvision.htm (http://kitec.net/ksf/kites/subvision.htm)
vs.
(http://kitec.net/ksf/img_ksf-grafik/kite-gifs/all_vision.gif)
http://kitec.net/ksf/kites/vision.htm (http://kitec.net/ksf/kites/vision.htm)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: REVflyer on September 11, 2013, 04:47 AM
No close second to a Rev?

Dave Ashworth is a home builder (highly recognized on the east coast) and most famous for his incredible low wind quads.  The video is his 3rd generation indoor.
Wildwood 2010 Indoor Dave Ashworth (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6_XAKFUQ7w#ws)

He also had a "london bridge" kite at least a decade before it was released by t.Benson as the Airbow.  Dave's version is designed for different wind conditions to be sure!  I've known him for probably 15 years and every kite he has ever flown is personally crafted by him.  His rev knock-offs are built on a 32.5 inch stick, so nothing is an exact copy (and nothing available "stock" ever fits him!)

He's made active-vents, tried reinforcing battens, altered positioning of vertical spars, removable covers for vents, of course his handles are home-built too.  The coolest ones are indoor with infinitely adjustable leaders (thru a friction fitting sunk into the wooden handle).

Dave is our kite-club's workshop coordinator:.... wood templates, full parts kits, the works!

I should also mention the "Kitesquid" (Harold Ames) has pushed the home-built quad-line envelope himself on many occasions.  Two of his best accomplishments are the Ryv 1.6 (a no wind kite design that still uses the SLE leading edge tubes!) and the 40 inch leading edge baby Ryv stacks.

Nothing can be taken away from my favorite kite company either.  Revolution has always been committed to the best product developments, customer service and financial support for our activities.  Others may want to offer a cheaper product, similar to their designs.  I say, why not "outwork Rev with your contributions" if you want a slice of their pie.

Take any quad-kite design you like and improve it for the next two decades.  I'll try one of those as well, but my guess is that a well tuned Rev can do more cool stuff, easier, maybe even cheaper!


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: sunsetflyers on September 15, 2013, 09:26 AM
i actually have a vision quad i would be willing to sell great kite well made not a rev though i have a few revs also i could part with not listed cause doesnt matter if i sell or not i always sell kites in great condition just check my profile


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: Hadge on September 15, 2013, 02:40 PM
Have any of you guys come across the Spiderkites Smithi ?  it's a 4 line foil kite but it has special one way 'valves' in the cells so that it can be flown - to a certain extent - like a Rev. backwards, forwards, propeller turns dive stops etc. Perhaps not a 'close second' to a Rev, but an interesting alternative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvBWWLXAvco (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvBWWLXAvco)

(http://www.metropolis-drachen.de/shopframeless/images/katalog/matten/2leiner/sonstiges/smithi.jpg)


Title: Re: Is There A Close Second To The Revolution Kites?
Post by: alien on September 20, 2013, 06:02 AM
Hot Kites,
what possesses these creators?
Brilliant stuff................... :P