GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: kwalispecial on April 22, 2010, 04:30 PM



Title: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: kwalispecial on April 22, 2010, 04:30 PM
This is partially a question and partially a rant, but how do you fellow kite fliers deal with people encroaching when you are flying? 

I went to the beach today and started out flying a single line kite to get a feel for the wind.  I was in an empty part of the beach (although it is a small beach) with a guy playing with his dog just south of me.  He stayed right there in the same place while I flew that kite. 

I decided to get out my Snapshot foil.  I took down the other kite went back to my car and got the Snapshot, and laid out the lines.  As soon as I got it in the air he decided to start playing fetch across me.  First the dog ran right under my hands and brushed up against me, and he didn't even call the dog back or anything.  The wind died down almost immediately, and as soon as I tried to start winding the lines back onto the winder, he chucks the ball down the beach across my lines and the dog runs right through my lines, ripping the handles out of my hands and almost taking a finger with it!  Not even a sorry!  He didn't even call the dog back!  He just walked past me without so much as a word as I tried again to wind the lines up.  And as soon as I put the darned thing away he returned to the end of the beach where he started...


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: ko on April 22, 2010, 04:41 PM
take a deep breath


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: kwalispecial on April 22, 2010, 04:48 PM
Haha, I know.  I just can't believe he wouldn't even say sorry after the dog ran through the lines...


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 22, 2010, 04:51 PM
Sad thing is, he actually could have hurt the dog by being so stupid...
It's dumb people that create the problems, not the animals, really... ::)


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: thief on April 22, 2010, 04:57 PM
put up banners first to mark the edge of territory...then have a few careful words with the guy explaining that the pup could get hurt...


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: RobB on April 22, 2010, 05:15 PM
You wouldn't see this guy playing fetch across a volleyball game, getting in between people playing Frisbee, or walking across a baseball field while people are playing... I guess kite flying is such a joke to the general public, that it's OK for them to act as if we aren't even there.
I thought this phenomena only took place where the majority of the public are a*holes, like where I live in New York, but the more I read about these incidents, I am surprised to hear of it happening all over the world. Unbelievable !


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 22, 2010, 05:16 PM
That's the trouble with a*holes, they are NOT an endangered species!


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: mikenchico on April 22, 2010, 07:35 PM
The challenge is being diplomatic, the impulse is to give them a slap up alongside the head. A deep breath is about the best advise and find a safer area to fly in. We don't often recognize it ourselves but we are participating in a potentially dangerous sport, flying arrow shafts at over 50 mph on small strong lines under tension that can seriously cut somebody. Realistically the obligation to fly safely is in our hands, if politely pointing out the danger the kite poses to somebody who doesn't see it and convinces them to move what else can you do? Most of us use public area's to fly in and I don't know of any municipality that will reserve a park for a kite fliers exclusive use, we just aren't that big.

Once we get in the Olympics that might change  :D



Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: Ace on April 22, 2010, 08:10 PM
Forget about it, you'll never get through to socially inept morons like that!





Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 22, 2010, 08:52 PM
While on the beach, I had a group of 19- or 20-somethings come up and start setting up their towels and such literally 5' from where I am standing, handles in hand. I politely inform them that I am flying my kites and was in the process of teaching someone else to fly, and for their own safety they might consider some more space between them and me, as she doesn't have very good control and they were in the danger zone. Their answer: "Then I guess you'll be talking to my lawyer". So I put my handles down and picked up my DSLR and started blatantly taking pictures of their girlfriends. When he asked ME to stop, I informed him that it was a free beach and if he had a problem with it I'd guess he'd be talking to MY lawyer. They moved and no punches were thrown. I guess I could have just moved but I had been there for hours and the group I was with had quite a bit of gear and to be honest, at that point, it was mostly principal. And I definitely have a problem with rudeness in any form...


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: tempest on April 22, 2010, 09:01 PM
It happens everywhere,  :'(   :(  there is nothing much that you can do except to have a word with the guy about the  animal getting hurt,  :-[ .  This has happened to me and sometimes it works and if they have any reasoning, will move away to another area .


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: JimB on April 22, 2010, 09:35 PM
You risk a full ban on kite flying, in any public space, anytime you get in a beef with someone. If their property is damaged or, worse yet, they are injured it escalates.

Whenever there is a possibility of anything like this happening: move.

No trash talking, no waiting for them to get a clue: just move. And move before there is even a hint of a problem. You can see the signs. You know you can.

It is better for all kite fliers who may want to use that space down the road.

Do not make waves. You do not have the clout to make it stick.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: ko on April 22, 2010, 10:19 PM
+1 thanx jim


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: coogee on April 22, 2010, 10:23 PM
This is a problem for all kiters and there are no easy solutions to this problem!
I have flown at my local beach for a long time, nearly 10 years, and imagine my shock when I turned up to find brand new signs banning two line kites as well as a whole lot of other stuff. I thought it was a mistake and that was my mistake. The local council was adamant that it was way to dangerous for the local beaches. I spent a lot of time writing to politicions and going to really boring town council meetings. The end result of this time consuming and frustrating process is that council agreed to repeal the ban at certain beaches and allow flying in the off season at my local beach. The real issue is not the inherent danger but insurance. Some how the tail now wags the dog as insurance dictates what you should be doing. This dovetails nicely with the current propensity for litigation.
As I have a good relationship with the local lifesavers and ALWAYS fly responsibly I have ignored the ban at my local beach. After all who would not want to walk to the end of the street to go flying.
Confrontational attitudes will not help. If other people behave badly you don't have to behave badly in response. Be friendly and fly in a manner that does not cause problems. Pack up and go if you have to because in the long run you will always find a place and time to fly.
   


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: fidelio on April 22, 2010, 11:29 PM
why do so many dog owners feel it's their right to ignore leash laws? it's the law!

if no one else is present, ok, it's different.
if it's private property, ok, it's different.
if it's open land, ok, it's different.

but i'm talking about city/county parks which are populated every hour they're open, with children present, with posted markings to leash dogs. why is this law still routinely ignored, and those ignoring it, indignant about it?


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: mikenchico on April 22, 2010, 11:35 PM
It doesn't apply to them? After all their dog is a good dog ...


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: reddobie on April 23, 2010, 12:38 AM
It doesn't apply to them? After all their dog is a good dog ...

Mike is right, ever one thinks their dog is good and can do no bad.  I see it ever day.  Its what I do for a living. 

Like yesterday, a Meter Reader was attacked by 2 dogs.  As I was writing a citation to the owner for her dog running loose, the dog tried to bite me.  She said, "he didn't bite anyone".  The other owner, stated that the dog was not her's and it was a stray.  That dog was impounded and a citation was attached, to be issued if they reclaim their dog.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: cids on April 23, 2010, 06:50 AM
The dog's owner should be on leash, not the dog.  :D :D :D


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: Boogie on April 23, 2010, 06:51 AM
Some dog owners are a different breed, pun intended.  We are dog owners and always keep ours on a leash when it's required or suggested.  The only exception being when we're in a fenced in dog park.  Our city is nice enough to provide dog owners with a pretty good size dog park divided into two sections, big dogs over 30lbs and little dogs under 30lbs.  There are still some people that have no respect and bring overly aggressive dogs to the park and let them run all over the submissive or weaker ones, let them poop wherever and not clean it up, let them run on a long leash or no lease on the walking trail, etc.  Usually if they or their dog does something stupid, there's enough people around that they feel awkward and fix the situation they created...but some still do not *get it* and have been verbally called out by several others standing there.  Anytime that's happened, they buck it up and leave, but I dread the day that some idiot lets it escalate further...and it probably will someday.  

As far as dog owners, I haven't had a problem with, but I have had problems with fully grown adults.  I was out flying one day on a soccer field when a few people started showing up with their kids.  I didn't pay much attention to them because they were just meandering around out of range, no big deal.  No one said a thing to me, so I continued to fly.  The wind was really ripping that day and I was tearing my Quantum around the sky, buzzing the ground a few times, flying across the bottom of the window, doing dive bombs...whatever.  7ft of kite was buzzing around at high speeds, obviously a warning that you shouldn't come near it.  Not enough apparently.  The soccer coach and the kids, all of them around 5 or 6 years old started setting up cones and doing drills directly underneath where the kite was flying.  I couldn't believe it.  I just looked at the coach and said, "Guys I have to land this thing sometime".  His response, "Well we have this field reserved", and walked off, which provided no solution to my present situation of being unable to find a clear spot to land anywhere on the field.  I started backing up a few feet at a time and found a clear spot at the edge of the field and positioned myself so it would be the edge of the window then I flew it to the edge of the window and set it down, packed up and took off.

Some people just do not get it, and never will...but they'll always be the first to file a lawsuit or start an argument when something happens as a result of their neglect.  The thing is, it's not that they simply don't get it, it's that they refuse to.  By being passive aggressive and just walking into something without saying a thing but obviously encroaching upon a situation such as the ones above, they figure if they don't say anything, they'll get their way with no confrontation.      


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 23, 2010, 02:02 PM
Some people just do not get it, and never will...but they'll always be the first to file a lawsuit or start an argument when something happens as a result of their neglect.  The thing is, it's not that they simply don't get it, it's that they refuse to.  By being passive aggressive and just walking into something without saying a thing but obviously encroaching upon a situation such as the ones above, they figure if they don't say anything, they'll get their way with no confrontation.      
This was my point. I got the impression that the group did similar stuff on a regular basis. Basically they assumed that I wasn't going to call them on their rudeness. I guess we all have our days where people doing stupid things push you over the edge...
I never said this was a good or even recommended option. I normally just fly where no one is, or move if people show up and I can no longer stay safe, but in this case, they literally walked across at least 50 yards of clear beach to park themselves right next to where I was. In hindsight, my response was definitely not the best option. It could easily have gone the other way and then I would have been "The Bad Guy" or worse, the "in jail guy". (I am a pretty big dude so the other guy would probably have been hospital boy.) At the time though, I felt the need to make my point to them, which put me right where I do not wish to be, "The A*hole Zone" alongside these fools!


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: fidelio on April 23, 2010, 03:48 PM
xuzme720, just wait until another kite flyer does this, then you'll really be scratching your head. it's happened to me.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 23, 2010, 03:58 PM
Sometimes I wish needless stupidity was painful, there might be less of it then. Or, a bunch of people running around going "ow, ow, ow".... ::)


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: Allen Carter on April 23, 2010, 05:18 PM
This is part of one of the biggest reasons sport kiting is hard to grow. Facilities.

Sport kite flying is just inherently incompatible with crowds. Like a lot of other activities, it needs it's own space. More established sports have purpose built fields, courts & courses paid for through the generosity of your tax contributions.

Sure you can fly in the corner of a parking lot or under a bridge, but that's sort of like playing catch rather than a real game of football. Sort of like practice putting in your office. For a real game of football or golf, you need space. Specially designed space.

So to get the space we need (not to mention wind) we are sort of a guerilla activity. I'm really fortunate to have a designated kite flying field near by with a big sign that says so at the entrance. Even so, on a busy day we have to deal with a lot of families with SLKs & kids running around. All that twisted dacron in the air ready to cut your Spectra! Folks who are there to enjoy kids & kites are often more aware of sport kites than the average Joe sixpack, but there is still conflict sometimes and a lot of safety issues. So we are guerillas among other kite fliers too.

We need space! We need few distractions! We'd like to avoid animal droppings and gopher holes. Flying on asphalt is not such a good thing. Then of course, there's wind. A lot of location choices are based on wind. It's one of the things civilians can't grok. "why cant you just go fly over there?" Well, because those trees block the wind, see? "Yeah, right" (eyes rolling).

So anyway, we have specific needs that are mostly not catered to in any formal way (it IS nice to fly on a roped of field at a comp or festival). We have to make do. Like JimB sez, we need to get along and stay cool. Sometimes in guerilla warfare you have to fade into the jungle to be able to fight (fly) again another day.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: mikenchico on April 23, 2010, 05:44 PM
... just wait until another kite flyer does this, then you'll really be scratching your head. it's happened to me.

Oh yeah, 3 years in a row now at WSIKF in Long Beach Wa. The competition fields are 300' X 300', enough room for a couple fliers you would think ... but no! Some kite fliers need that all to themselves or they get VERY RUDE, ruder then any non kite flier has ever been to me. Take last year, I thought I recognized Mr D.H. from the year before so I waited until he was packing up to go to take an opportunity to fly for a minute. He proceeded to scream at me relentless to stop while he packed up his kite, now he was in an area that my kite could not possibly or physically fly into but I was on HIS FIELD, at an event advertised to draw 100,000 people  20 % of the area is for him only. After he left in a huff EIGHT of us proceeded to share the field with no conflicts.

Another year a flier got so huffed as to walk 300 - 400 feet back to where I was flying to yell at me that I was in his space, dunno if you recall previous posts on line lengths but I hate long lines and use 50 - 75 feet maximum.

Another flier screamed at and made Rhonda bring her just completed, 300 + hours work (with me and that is hard by itself) Delta with 2 matching 300 foot tails into the ocean because she was in his way, dunno how, I helped launch the kite and it was up on 200 - 250 feet of line and he wasn't flying anything longer then 120's but he felt the need to put her in tears.

Not one of these fliers had an official arm band on letting them even be on the fields, we had every right to call them down and kick their A's off the fields but really what good would that do? Those types have no reasoning capabilities.



Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: RobB on April 23, 2010, 06:22 PM
... just wait until another kite flyer does this, then you'll really be scratching your head. it's happened to me.

Oh yeah, 3 years in a row now at WSIKF in Long Beach Wa. The competition fields are 300' X 300', enough room for a couple fliers you would think ... but no! Some kite fliers need that all to themselves or they get VERY RUDE, ruder then any non kite flier has ever been to me. Take last year, I thought I recognized Mr D.H. from the year before so I waited until he was packing up to go to take an opportunity to fly for a minute. He proceeded to scream at me relentless to stop while he packed up his kite, now he was in an area that my kite could not possibly or physically fly into but I was on HIS FIELD, at an event advertised to draw 100,000 people  20 % of the area is for him only. After he left in a huff EIGHT of us proceeded to share the field with no conflicts.

Another year a flier got so huffed as to walk 300 - 400 feet back to where I was flying to yell at me that I was in his space, dunno if you recall previous posts on line lengths but I hate long lines and use 50 - 75 feet maximum.

Another flier screamed at and made Rhonda bring her just completed, 300 + hours work (with me and that is hard by itself) Delta with 2 matching 300 foot tails into the ocean because she was in his way, dunno how, I helped launch the kite and it was up on 200 - 250 feet of line and he wasn't flying anything longer then 120's but he felt the need to put her in tears.

Not one of these fliers had an official arm band on letting them even be on the fields, we had every right to call them down and kick their A's off the fields but really what good would that do? Those types have no reasoning capabilities.


Hey MIC…
Yikes ! That’s out of control ! From another kite flier…  Most of the other people that fly that I’ve met are more than friendly, but I did run into a few jerks at one of the events I went to, who just walked right into the middle of where I was flying, and started flying their kites. I was in the middle of the walk of shame, but still actively flying in that spot. When I say right in the middle of my spot, I mean they had to walk over my lines. I did like JimB suggests, turn the other cheek and all that, but it still burns me up two years later.
The upshot to the whole thing is that when I picked up my stuff and moved to the other side of the field, and met JimB. I just wish I had watched him fly more, I would’ve learned more that day.
~Rob.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 23, 2010, 06:24 PM
I wonder just how much of this "new" attitude is the direct result of the concept of "please everyone"? How many people are being affected by the ridiculous idea of cater to the "one" while neglecting the many? It seems that people are learning that if you can make enough noise about it, someone will make it happen for you and it's spilling over into just the type of behavior we are talking about. I see it all the time on the news where people who are too busy with their hands out to even think about doing it for themselves, screaming about how no one is helping them! I won't get into details here but it is very disturbing change in attitude that might be the start of our downfall!

Now where does this go? Oh shoot, I broke the top of the soapbox!! Where can I get a replacement??


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: Boogie on April 23, 2010, 07:37 PM
Beats me...but since I ordered a 20ft lineset with my 4D, I'll be the idiot running in circles in his driveway....until the wife yells at me to move so she can park the car.   :D

I did run into a similar situation at a local Kite Fest here in Ky.  When we first got there, there were only a couple hundred people there so we picked out a nice spot to plop down with a big enough window to fly my dualie on 85ft lines.  Within about 30 minutes though, it got crowded.  It was mostly families that obviously didn't know what a "window" is for sport kites.  It also must have confused them to see two lines going to one kite because they stood over the lines and just looked around.  Whodathunkit.  There was no hostility though as I realized it was simply too dangerous to be ripping around with so many kids running completely unsupervised.  I put the Quantum up and got out one of our SLKs and just enjoyed the rest of the day chilling out on the picnic blanket with the wife. 

We are fortunate enough to have a farm to fly on most of the time when we go back to our hometown on the weekend, but we live in a different city about an hour away during the week.  The parks get pretty crowded when it gets warm outside, so I'm having to really polish up my guerilla tactics as far as finding a suitable place to fly.  I try to take it all in stride, but it is hard sometimes to keep from getting flustered by other people ignorance. 

It's pretty much the same game though when I try to fly my r/c helis, only they are a HUGE kid and dog magnet, so I don't get them out nearly as often as I'd like.  Matter of fact, that's one of the main reasons I decided to get a little more into kites.   ::)


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: GEB on April 23, 2010, 08:33 PM
Two years ago at WSIKF I was teaching my daughter-in-law Amy to fly a dual line. She had less than 10 minutes of experiencing flying when the following happened. A women talking on a cell phone while flying a single line kite came strolling in front of her. Amy had the presence of mind to park her kite at the top of the window while this lady paused directly in front of her, close enough that if Amy had lowered her arms the wrist straps would have hit this woman. The lady never once said a word, then slowly moved on. There were about 20 or so other dual line flyers all in a row and this lady just continued walking right through them. Sometimes you just wonder!!!!


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: ezme6 on April 24, 2010, 07:35 AM
Some people just do not get it, and never will...but they'll always be the first to file a lawsuit or start an argument when something happens as a result of their neglect.  The thing is, it's not that they simply don't get it, it's that they refuse to.  By being passive aggressive and just walking into something without saying a thing but obviously encroaching upon a situation such as the ones above, they figure if they don't say anything, they'll get their way with no confrontation.      
This was my point. I got the impression that the group did similar stuff on a regular basis. Basically they assumed that I wasn't going to call them on their rudeness. I guess we all have our days where people doing stupid things push you over the edge...
I never said this was a good or even recommended option. I normally just fly where no one is, or move if people show up and I can no longer stay safe, but in this case, they literally walked across at least 50 yards of clear beach to park themselves right next to where I was. In hindsight, my response was definitely not the best option. It could easily have gone the other way and then I would have been "The Bad Guy" or worse, the "in jail guy". (I am a pretty big dude so the other guy would probably have been hospital boy.) At the time though, I felt the need to make my point to them, which put me right where I do not wish to be, "The A*hole Zone" alongside these fools!



Where do you usally fly? When I go to Galveston I NEVER have any problems? The place has 27 miles of beach, there is LOTS of room


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 24, 2010, 07:44 AM
I fly at Ra Appfel park on the east end. Usually there are very few people there...this happened to be Easter weekend and it WAS busier than usual, for sure. I had no problems for most of the day though, as most people had no issues once they saw the kites or were politely asked to be careful and stay clear for their own safety.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: Texanpilot on April 24, 2010, 09:45 AM
You need to go to the far west end of the island, nearly to San Luis Pass.  The beach is wider there (at least it was 4 years ago before I moved to California and two big hurricanes hit Galveston), and a lot less crowded.  No real facilities, though.

I so wish I was back home.   :-[


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: xuzme720 on April 24, 2010, 10:26 AM
I'll try that end next time I go.
I was hitting RA because during the "winter" there was usually no one at all out there and very wide beach (they have room for parking and camping right on the beach) That weekend was the first time I had been out there where there was that kind of crowd. Usually I am out of there when people start invading my space but interest in watching the kites seemed high with most of the people there and with the occasional inevitable exception, people were very understanding and respectful of my window.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: steve.hobart on April 24, 2010, 02:13 PM
These days if I get "invaded" I normally pack up and move. It's not worth the arguments and potential damage to kites and people.

If dogs are around I dontt take chances any more...I have only had 2 incidents with dogs...neither was great for either party..in 1 case the dog grabbed and damaged my DS, in another I smashed into and rode over a full grown Labrador at 50 kph in my kite buggy being pulled along by a 6.5m race kite and tumbled it along for many metres...The owner was distraught, I felt bad, but luckily the dog was somehow ok.The only thing that could have happend out of that incident was a ban on buggying. Luckily that didnt happen ...but I dont take that risk anymore....

Steve


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: fidelio on April 24, 2010, 02:19 PM
glad to hear i'm not alone with regards to 'some' other kiters. thought maybe i was just being too sensitive, but it would appear many of you have stories.


Title: Re: Beach "Territory" or Right of Way?
Post by: kwalispecial on April 24, 2010, 04:06 PM
I'm lucky to live right near the ocean, but finding a place to fly is quite difficult.  I have a SLK that basically just requires standing room, but the stunt kites are a challenge.  The beaches that are within a convenient distance are small and narrow and fill up quickly.  I like dogs and if I had one I would be out there with the other dog owners.  And on these beaches dogs are aloud to run free in the off season, or morning or evening during the high season.  My original post was mostly a case of "I was here first".  I definitely wasn't confrontational.

We are definitely in a very space-intensive sport.  You figure a soccer field supports 22 people running around, but each of us requires a circle of about 2/3 of that size all to ourselves.  I just think in cases like the one I described where it is still early in the year and the beach was pretty empty, one would think people would give each other more space.  If it was 4th of July and I was trying to claim 200' to myself to fly a kite, I would completely understand the encroachment.