GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Kitemac on May 01, 2010, 04:25 PM



Title: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: Kitemac on May 01, 2010, 04:25 PM
I have been struggling with the backflip for a month now and must be doing something wrong.  The kites I have been concentrating with are the Acrobatx (Std. and UL).  My Quantum seems a bit heavy to learn this on.

Based on the Freestyle Pilot I bring the kite up to the top of the window, pull down on the lines to fill the sail, snap the wrists and give slack.  My kite refuses to go on its back.

I also tried adjusting the bridle (nose away) and it made no difference.

The other day the winds were fluctuating when I tried to launch the UL.  The first pull brought the kite up 8 foot and it stalled.  I pulled a second time and it went into a backflip.  Feeling luck was with me I again went to the top of the window with the Freestyle Pilot instructions and the kite refused to go on its back.

So onto practicing my newly learned snap stalls using the slight pull, sharp pull and give slack.  The kite goes into a backflip. Going back to the top of the window and the kite will not cooperate.

What am I missing here or is the kite just playing with me?


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: tpatter on May 01, 2010, 04:42 PM
Its a speed thing, not a power thing.

Start with your hands back pulled back with the lines taut, snap both at the same time and then immediately push both hands forward.  You should easily get a turtle and with practice the one-pop rollup.
It should be a fluid motion (snap, push), don't think of them as separate moves - its all over in a fraction of a second.

I would recommend trying it about half-way up the window rather than at the top.  No one I know does tricks at the top of the window.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: DonCrash on May 01, 2010, 07:18 PM
Doing the backflip at the top of the window is although just a way of learning/practicing it...nothing wrong with it. Thats where I've practiced mine.

Just as tpatter said, but to add, if you feel your lines tighten right after the snap, then you didnt provide slack right away.

I've taught a friend to backflip with the Quantum the same way (at the top), and the lazy susan the same day.

Goodluck mac.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kantaxel on May 01, 2010, 07:26 PM
I think it's also wind speed dependent.....too high a wind and the kite can't stay on it's back....

FWIW


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: tempest on May 01, 2010, 07:58 PM
I agree with what DonCrash and tpatter said about not giving enough slack , i learned to do the backflip that way, and have taught others the same way.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: filpee on May 01, 2010, 10:27 PM
I learnt with an E2 as per the prism dvd (top of the window).

Starting with your arms fully extended upwards the big pull sets you up for the slack, the pop stalls the kite and the slack gives the kite room to flip.

As per others here it sounds like your not giving it enough slack after the pop.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Crescent City on May 01, 2010, 10:45 PM
The easiest way for me to get my Acrobatx to turtle is to fly it straight left past the middle of the window and then pop it with my right hand.  I like this method most of the time because the wind here is usually strong.  Good luck, and have fun practicing.  The turtle is going to open a whole bunch of new doors for you!


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kantaxel on May 01, 2010, 11:46 PM
The easiest way for me to get my Acrobatx to turtle is to fly it straight left past the middle of the window and then pop it with my right hand.  I like this method most of the time because the wind here is usually strong.  

As in 'Snap Turtle' . :)


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: mikenchico on May 02, 2010, 12:11 AM
Yep, Speed & Slack, while I was first attempting it I'm sure I was giving too large of a pull/pop, more of a quick wrist pop worked better. Then my next challenge was getting the slack to the kite quick enough, it's got to happen very quickly. Depending on the wind and the kite a step or lunge forward may be needed to insure enough line to get the kite all the way on it's back too.



Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kitemac on May 02, 2010, 06:36 AM
Thanks - definitely gives me something to work on the next time out.  I know I have it in me since it happens for unknown reasons.  Just need to harness that movement.  Quick snap and slack.

The one thing that was not expected is the length of time to learn a move.  Even what appears to be a simple move take quite a bit of time.  It makes me appreciate the skill level I see in many of the videos you guys have posted.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: DaveH on May 02, 2010, 09:21 AM
Great advice here. I think a key point is the quick step forward in stronger winds to allow the kite to fully enter the backflip, as Mikenchico said.   the Acrobatx sits nicely in a turtle, and as Tom mentioned will go easily into the single pop rollup.  Its a rollup machine!

One more thing I wanted to menton, when moving on to the lazy susan, doing the backflip higher in the window will make it easier to avoid a tip wrap.  Once you get a feel for the timing required you can do it lower.



Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: mikenchico on May 02, 2010, 09:47 AM
... The one thing that was not expected is the length of time to learn a move.  Even what appears to be a simple move take quite a bit of time.  It makes me appreciate the skill level I see in many of the videos you guys have posted.

Sometimes a trick just falls into your bag, like you said you've done this one without trying, and it becomes immediately repeatable. Sometimes finding that right movement and timing takes time.



Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: JimB on May 02, 2010, 06:52 PM
Put the kite on the ground on its wing tips in very light or no wind.

Let the kite sit back away from you and then bring it nose towards you.

As the nose starts to fall towards you throw your hands forward with a quick snapping motion and lunge towards the kite.

I guarantee you'll get a back flip: at least.

You may just get a roll up.

;)


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: xuzme720 on May 02, 2010, 07:19 PM
So, just to be clear, a backflip is the same position as a fade but nose away(lines over the LS's instead of the nose)? I guess I was thinking it was more than that...


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kantaxel on May 02, 2010, 08:19 PM
A backflip is also the 'kite being in the turtle'.  Many tricks are started or have the turtle as one of their components.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: xuzme720 on May 02, 2010, 08:52 PM
So, basically it's just a belly up flare...


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: freecheese on May 03, 2010, 12:01 AM
Put the kite on the ground on its wing tips in very light or no wind.

Let the kite sit back away from you and then bring it nose towards you.

As the nose starts to fall towards you throw your hands forward with a quick snapping motion and lunge towards the kite.

I guarantee you'll get a back flip: at least.

You may just get a roll up.

;)


I think you missed a step there. Sounds more like an opportunity to practise your dead launch.  ;)


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: JimB on May 03, 2010, 12:05 AM
Don't see what step you think is missing.

Perhaps you could elaborate?

Essentially you are rocking the kite back and then forward and then throwing it on its back.

If you let it fall too far forward, then you will get to practice your dead launch.

If you time it right you will get a very solid back flip.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kantaxel on May 03, 2010, 01:39 AM
I believe, at this stage, it is all semantics...........I knew what Jim meant (pop first then throw hands forward)   ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: mikenchico on May 03, 2010, 06:39 AM
Put the kite on the ground on its wing tips in very light or no wind.

Let the kite sit back away from you and then bring it nose towards you.

As the nose starts to fall towards you throw your hands forward with a quick snapping motion and lunge towards the kite.

I guarantee you'll get a back flip: at least.

You may just get a roll up.

;)

I was confused reading it too, I didn't see the pop as the nose starts to fall forward before you throw your hands forward and lunge at the kite. Then figured Jim used "snapping motion" as the description since the snap back>push & lunge forward needs to be one movement.



Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kitemac on May 05, 2010, 04:17 PM
It was a great day today at LSP and I practiced the advice given on the back flip.

Letting the Quantum go to the top of the window and then pulling down (as in the Freestyle Pilot) followed by a quick snap of the wrists put the kite into a backflip.  When I manage the slack it looks like the video.  When I don't it goes into a death spiral with the kite tangled in the lines.  It seems like the pull down puts the kite higher than a normal stall and once the snap is given a large amount of slack exists in the lines so I needed to move back and not forward as expected.  Do I need an adjustment here?

No matter what I tried unless the kite is stalled at the top of the window followed by a pulldown and wrist snap the kite would not backflip.  I tried lunging forward and snapping harder/faster.  The Prism method is almost effortless in comparison to what I am doing.  So I am not sure what to try.

I even did three axels today.  You may not have recognized them as an observer but crude axels they were.   ;D




Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: ko on May 06, 2010, 09:39 AM
hey mac ,glad your having a good time and not getting too frustrated! the backflip will come it is just not as easy as it looks obviously  it is all about line management. you have to pull-pop evenly then keep the slack even.the prism vid is great but when you exaggerate the move that much there are all kinds of ways to NOT get it on its back evenly hence the death roll. when you get this trick it will open doors for you ..keep up the axle, stalls, and sideslides both hands hope this helps KO ps here is martin doing them RIGHT!!!http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/16/tFGh4YPs62Q (http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/16/tFGh4YPs62Q) also look at the flapjack just forget about the jack part for now LOL


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: biglos on May 06, 2010, 06:10 PM
Took my Quantum out today and had a blast flying it. Very rare for me to get the kind of wind that it likes. One thing that I noticed is it is harder to get the Quantum into a turtle then what I am used to. I put a good hour into it and could do sweet axel's with it but it seemed to not like the turtle position. It lays on its back really slow. More then likely it is just the timing. I also kept missing trying to get it into fades when you're flying down, throw slack at it, and then popping. I could get into one from an axel pretty easy though.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Ace on May 06, 2010, 06:52 PM
Kitemac, you hit the nail on the head with the effortless remark. I think your yanking and spanking too hard.
The intial pull should be sufficient enough to put wind into the sail ONLY, the snap of the wrists should be short and sharp followed by 1-2 feet of instant slack (Kite dependant)
The Quantum you are flying is not very pitchy, try something with a higher aspect ratio, and if you really want to get things going try something with tail weight.

Finesse is the key ;)


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: ko on May 06, 2010, 09:15 PM
the quantum backflips just fine 


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Carlton on May 06, 2010, 11:44 PM

I would recommend trying it about half-way up the window rather than at the top.  No one I know does tricks at the top of the window.


I agree here.  It's actually easier to do a backflip lower in the window and manage it once you're in a turtle.  At least for me.  I think it's easier to be quicker lower in the window.   


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: biglos on May 07, 2010, 03:37 AM
It is all due to experience level and technique. IMO, someone who hasn't been flying as long will have a more difficult time getting a Quantum to turtle vs. some of the other kites that give that position away.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: ko on May 07, 2010, 08:44 AM
ok i can go with that but does he have to buy another kite to learn it?? i agree everything comes easier with the kites i fly now but the quantum will do it and lazy susan he is a new guy. if you watch martins vid he shows the input for the backflip on the ground (like jim explains) which is by far the easiest place to do it.. holding it is completly different ,not easy anyway thats enough out of me 


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: biglos on May 07, 2010, 09:40 AM
I'm having a blast with my Quantum. It takes a bit more wind then I usually get ( variable inland winds) but its a great kite. I am amazed at how easily it does other tricks. I even got a 540 in with it but only pulled the one off.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: Kitemac on May 07, 2010, 11:16 AM
[url]http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/16/tFGh4YPs62Q[/url] ([url]http://www.youtube.com/user/DPmama74#p/u/16/tFGh4YPs62Q[/url])


I am definitely using alot more brute force than in the video. 

Since learning the moves has not resulted in a hard hit for the Quantum I will try again my next time out with the Hypnotist.  It sounds like finding a kite which will meet me half way on the trick will help get the moves down. 


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: biglos on May 09, 2010, 03:23 PM
Kitemac,
I took the Quantum our for a few hours today and it will turtle but the timing is way different then in the video. I found out if you do a quick pop and throw slack, it will turtle no problem. If you are a bit lazy with the initial pop, it will not drop right into a turtle.

The Flare to a fade is quicker then you think it is as well. If you don't set up for it correctly, it takes a while to rotate or it will over rotate.

Hope that helps you out.


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches!
Post by: freecheese on May 10, 2010, 12:52 AM
Don't see what step you think is missing.


The part where you actually launch the kite into the air...


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: Kitemac on May 28, 2010, 01:58 PM
The winds were with me today at LSP:  8-10 mph off the water. 

I filled the Hypnotist sail with wind then using a quick wrist movement was able to get the backflip over and over again.  Finally!!!

I can hold the backflip only when walking forward.  This does mean the kite is losing altitude.  Can you hold it just by adjusting line tension?

I was not successful with the Lazy Susan as each time the kite would come out of the backflip but felt pretty good that one more trick was added to my collection.   :)


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: mikenchico on May 28, 2010, 04:13 PM
The Hypnotist is relatively heavy at 12.9 oz so it may not hold altitude on its back except in even higher winds, start high and you should have plenty of time though to try a few things.

First make sure you've given slack with your off hand before hitting the Lazy S, tension on the opposite wing will bring it out. I've also found that hitting your Lazy S attempt as soon as it goes on its back and the nose is still very deep is more reliable on kites that will fall out of a Turtle quickly. Alternately another small wrist pop while on its back followed quickly by slack may sit it deeper too.

I don't recall, does it have two bridle settings like some Prism's? If so you might try the alternate setting to see if it'll sit any deeper, that'll help with the Lazy S and may help to retain altitude while on its back too. If it then ends up being stuck on its back then just do a Lazy Susan, they usually go back to nose up after a rotation  :)





Title: Re: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: Kitemac on May 28, 2010, 05:15 PM
First make sure you've given slack with your off hand before hitting the Lazy S, tension on the opposite wing will bring it out. I've also found that hitting your Lazy S attempt as soon as it goes on its back and the nose is still very deep is more reliable on kites that will fall out of a Turtle quickly. Alternately another small wrist pop while on its back followed quickly by slack may sit it deeper too.

I don't recall, does it have two bridle settings like some Prism's? If so you might try the alternate setting to see if it'll sit any deeper, that'll help with the Lazy S and may help to retain altitude while on its back too. If it then ends up being stuck on its back then just do a Lazy Susan, they usually go back to nose up after a rotation  :)

Was not giving slack with my off hand maybe that is an issue.  As far as the dual settings I have the Hypnotist set up for "radical" setting.  Even with my crude skills it seems much more responsive that the Quantum with the "forgiving" setting.

As many times as I watch the DVDs I still do not pick up some of the finer points.

Thanks for the hints.



Title: Re: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: ko on May 29, 2010, 08:54 AM
great job mac it is hard to learn from vids but it CAN be done watch randy G's and martins vids also, sometimes you will pick up something from 1 that you missed with another  hey if it was easy it wouldn't be any fun IMO plus do what you are doing ask questions  one of the other forums in seattle is a great source .check the stickies hope this helps have fun KO


Title: Re: Backflip Headaches! - Update
Post by: biglos on May 29, 2010, 09:22 AM
IMO, I think one the most important aspects is recognizing the orientation of the kite like when its in the correct position to do a trick. That is just as important as the proper input. Watch for the position the kite is in at the instant the pilot initiates the trick. This has helped me a ton.

So many times I had the kite in a position where a trick was possible but didn't even realize it.