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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Single Line Kites => Topic started by: chilese on June 12, 2010, 11:07 AM



Title: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: chilese on June 12, 2010, 11:07 AM
Once in a Blue Moon (hint, hint), I'll take out a few of my fighter kites and fly them at the park. There is something almost magical about controlling a fighter that can't be experienced with multi-line flying.

Now with the rising popularity of glidekites™ (Manta, Skate, 61/49, Wala), I keep wondering if the high end lads will get into fighters.

Paul Shirey use to make an excellent Stryke Fighter. Perhaps if Kmac were to make a cross between the gliders and the fighters, we could reintroduce this very small segment of kiting back into the slightly larger "mainstream" high end kiters.

Maybe a fighter with custom panels around 2 feet across for a little presence.

Just wishful thinking......


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind
Post by: 711jrp on June 12, 2010, 12:00 PM
SssssssHhhhh John you know the rules!! No talk of fighters in public.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind
Post by: chilese on June 12, 2010, 12:03 PM
Ooppsss...  ::)

There are no fighters.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind
Post by: ezme6 on June 12, 2010, 12:07 PM
I know someone who does a routine with a glide fighter.....beautiful stuff


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind
Post by: normofthenorth on June 12, 2010, 12:13 PM
+1. It's still way too hard to buy a reasonable fighter, and the fighter culture is still heavily "biased" toward DIY, build your own -- heck, why not DESIGN your own while you're at it?! I'm old enough when computers were "promoted" that way, and that's not what got us all sitting at them for too many hours a day!

It was sad when Paul stopped building all his kites, including the remarkable Stryke fighter. Also sad when Steve and Chris stopped selling fighters.

Maybe if and when the amazing "Zen fighter" (ever) makes it to North American shores, maybe even for PURCHASE -- like in exchange for money -- its obvious magic will change things and create some customer-side "buzz". . .


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: HiFly on June 12, 2010, 02:02 PM
I keep wondering if the high end lads will get into fighters.
Spiderkites (Ch. Fokken) makes a 'new' icarex/cf korean fighter and for some time allready a (simple) 'diamond-style fighter' called KIRK.
The homepage is also a shop, so you have to google it ;-)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: tonycarl60 on June 12, 2010, 04:21 PM
"There is something almost magical about controlling a fighter that can't be experienced with multi-line flying."

I agree! I took an inexpensive rip stop hata and put a bow line on and added some nose weight so now it's a fighter/glider :) 


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: chilese on June 12, 2010, 05:20 PM
Glighter maybe (Glider/Fighter).


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind
Post by: Kantaxel on June 12, 2010, 07:32 PM
It was sad when Paul stopped building all his kites, including the remarkable Stryke fighter.

Have you checked out his website lately? ;)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: Allen Carter on June 12, 2010, 08:25 PM
I started with fighters but all my good ones need major repairs. DIY is right. I tend to let them sit.

Once I flew some of the modern "North American" style kites, even really excellent production kites like the PKC or Roo feel kinda sluggish. Pretty much anything in ripstop is overweight. A 2' fighter would be a different beast for sure. Many of the trasitional Asian fighters are that big and flown on very long lines.

I have a box of Lambert/Indian mylar fighters patiently waiting to be bridled. I have a staycation in a few weeks. Good project!


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: fidelio on June 12, 2010, 11:21 PM
to me fighters and gliders cater to a different audience. my opinion is gliders are for relaxation and fighters for competition.

gliders can also be flown when nothing else will. if there's wind enough for fighters, my preference would be for something else.

of course the exception to this would be a 'relaxing competition' among friends with sufficiently large enough kites to enjoy the slow motion comedy of errors. where taking the time to laugh or tell a joke wouldn't 'cost you the win' but rather would enhance the experience.

to enjoy fighters you'd need someone to 'fight' against as well and many people here are solo fliers in their area. by contrast, glider kites can be enjoyed to their fullest by one individual.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: kitelover on June 13, 2010, 04:05 AM
I watched Charley McCleary (sp?) fly Mystery Ballet or Senior Ballet at WSIKF one year using a fighter. It was different, entertaining and enlightening.
Non traditional fighters today are fairly high tech, Orcon and carbonn have replaced paper and bamboo. After safety, maybe the biggest reason they use line touch rather than cutting when fighting.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: mikenchico on June 13, 2010, 09:33 AM
Although fighters are traditionally carried in a box, don't put them in a box as far as capabilities, like anything they are what you make them.

The first indoor kite flying I experienced was preformed by Joe Vaughn at WSIKF in 1989 or 1990 with his Grandmaster fighters, long before anybody was actively flying sport kites indoors

There are also precision events run for fighters, some will place cups onto different length poles at differing distances and your challenge is to knock as many off as you can in a prescribed amount of time. Another is a 'Bullseye' challenge using a netting pitching practice thing where you try to paste the kite to the center bullseye.

Richard Hurd continues to fly fighters in the Mystery Ballet competitions during WSIKF, I don't recall whether he or Charly M'Clary started that. While Reed Richards preforms ballet using two or more fighters on one line, which is pretty entertaining

Fighter kite ballet edit (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIcy8R6XqK0&feature=related#lq-hq)




Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: Allen Carter on June 13, 2010, 02:05 PM

to enjoy fighters you'd need someone to 'fight' against as well and many people here are solo fliers in their area.

That's like saying you have to have someone to race against to enjoy your Ducati.



Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: normofthenorth on June 13, 2010, 09:38 PM
+1, Allen! I fly "fighters" most of the time I fly anything, but I hardly ever "tangle" with another fighter-kite flier. Even when a gang of fighter-kiters gets together here in Toronto, we often fly fighters side-by-side, try each others kites, chit-chat, whatever, and DON'T "fight". Tangling in competition is fun, but just steering a kite around with only one string is pretty magical, too.

I find the line between fighters and gliders totally blurred if not dimensionless, variations on the theme of efficient, responsive, steerable 1-liners.

Check out the YouTube videos of Darryl Yeh flying the Zen kite indoors (including one video where he's sitting in a chair the whole time!). I forget if he uses the word "fighter" or not, but the basic design is clearly fighter kite, though it's optimized to glide like crazy! (I want, I want, I want!!)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: thief on June 14, 2010, 06:06 AM
i am guessing that Daryl is not going to be making the zen in any numbers at any time soon...i tried getting at least one but really 10 and that just died.....

a friend in belgium made for me exactly what you described john.....big gliding fighter kites....Ginga's....

set of Gingas:
(http://lh6.ggpht.com/_tbYkV1FmtY4/TBYoJ72U8QI/AAAAAAAASLQ/K1iOmegyta4/s800/IMG_4198.JPG)

The vented ginga:
(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tbYkV1FmtY4/TBYoKDGCRtI/AAAAAAAASLU/J1bVMIYNB-w/s800/IMG_4200.JPG)

i have the high aspect one coming and the vented one.....
yes a vented fighter type kite with battens....the high aspect one is about 3' across.......
Christophe will not be producing them since his real job takes up too much time...but i will have the plans for them....
pix when i get them!!!!the slow boat from Belgium......


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: lad on June 14, 2010, 08:30 AM
My limited experience with gliders is that they seem to have a fairly small range and repetitive back-n-forth motion - which doesn't excite me too much. And as versatile as Revs are, I still feel limited by the fixed line length and two-dimensionality.

As someone else wrote, fighters are all about movement in 3 dimensions. There really is nothing like seeing the kite pop and climb further and further into the air as you let more and more line out. You get to fly with the birds. Or chase them. You get to trace fences and check streetlamps. You get to spin over the heads of friends, enemies and strangers. You liven up any passing dog's routine walk.

I go out now as the summer sun sets, the air cools, and the breezes are near null. "Normal" speed winds lose their challenge after you've fished in the barest ethers. I put waxed 5-15lb PowerPro on my Jeff Howard Flick and slowly work it up into the air. Tiny "whooshes" slice the stillness as the thermals tug it, the sparrows buzz it, and it zips across the pink, Maxfield Parrish clouds you get this time of year.

Life is good.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: mikenchico on June 14, 2010, 12:29 PM
Great story lad, launched a whole dream sequence.

I do find the gliders to be 3 dimensional to though, I'm challenged by the Aerobe to get it out to the end of the line in little to no wind then bring it back, then work it out again. About the same experience you're after, just a bit slower with no spinning hover and not really accurate enough to trace fences & check light poles.

Now where did I put those fighters?  ;)



Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: tonycarl60 on June 14, 2010, 01:05 PM
Those Gingas look interesting, the shape kinda looks like a flattened out Wala, mmmmmm:)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: indigo_wolf on June 14, 2010, 01:50 PM
Those Gingas look interesting, the shape kinda looks like a flattened out Wala, mmmmmm:)

Nibble, nibble, BITE.... the hook is set now.    :D
 
ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: lad on June 14, 2010, 03:02 PM
Wondering if a large, vented fighter is much different than a small, regular one?

I was playing around with weighing my Flick indoors at WW - trying for a glider-style ballast. It is too taunt to drift and glide normally. But, it can really move fast during a distance launch tug! Considering it's small sail, it's pretty amazing.

You do need a LITTLE wind to get it moving outdoors, compared to a pure zero-wind kite. BUT, the little sucker can soar and dive like no glider kite I've ever seen. (and you don't have to keep walking backwards!)  ;)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: mikenchico on June 14, 2010, 03:55 PM


Manny Alvarez has experimented with venting fighters, standard North American size, not to give a higher wind range but to smooth the airflow increasing effiecency with some success.

Did I hear PLANS? Now you're talkin' my language.    :)


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: thief on June 14, 2010, 05:48 PM
yes plans.....

the vented one is - as you surmised- for a smoother flight...not for higher winds....these Gingas have been in the works now for almost 2 years.....with lots of belgian beatdowns!

not at all like a wala.....these are much more fighter shaped and derived....a smooth skin...no keel forming at all....i will have to put up more pictures that i have tucked away....

also if you look at the spreader some of you might have noticed a strange bend to the rod....yep...Christophe is making the spreader out of fiberglas and carbon fiber.....it is giving him the bend characteristics he likes.....

they are well designed and i am sure made too....let ya know when they hit my house!


Manny....ah i miss that guy.....i was flying a kite in a small park in Bristol Ri in about 98 or so...and this guy and his son were watching me....and i them because they pulled out some fighters....eventually we put the kites down and met in the middle of the field.....it was manny...he had just started making kites as a past time....i made certain that he knew where my shop was and he came in 2 days later....he was amazed at what was out there....and now i am just amazed at what he is building himself!!!  since i moved away last year i have not seen him since last july....always loved chatting with him....


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: glider on June 14, 2010, 06:01 PM
Glider SLKs are loads of fun.  The HQ Hybrid is my favorite outdoor no-wind kite.  The Skate for indoors.  I also have the R-Sky Bird that seems to be more of a darter than a glider.

My first glider SLK was the Nelson Borelli glider for indoor flying.  These are easy to make and cheap (like a dollar each).  Mr. Borelli did a workshop at an indoor event sponsored by the Kite Museum a few years back.  Some great flyers have done some incredible performances with these things.  

Plans here:  http://www.batoco.org/planos/2008/04/planobarriletegliderborreli.html

It seems like there's lots of room to try scaling this design up or down.  thinner spars for smaller sails and thicker for larger.

Dave
Portland, OR



Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: lad on June 14, 2010, 06:19 PM
I should be seeing Manny and his Sci-Fi fighter arsenal at Brigatine in another week or so!  ;)
Looking forward to pitting my Flick against his champion Buka in the cup knockoff skills event!


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: mikenchico on June 14, 2010, 10:07 PM
I met Manny a few years ago at WSIKF, he had entered a kite in the Comprehensive competition and from 100 yards or so I could tell it was special and walked down to see it and meet him. I was completely awed at his workmanship and innovation. He was building kites so far beyond the kites I was building 5-6 years before.



Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: lad on July 01, 2010, 10:16 AM
Manny only brought a few new kites this time - some sharp looking, vented Bukas.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: nckiter on July 26, 2010, 01:45 PM
Thief,
Any update on the arrival of that slow boat from Belgium?? You know, the one with the Gingas and Ginga plans!


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: UPNET on July 31, 2010, 09:21 AM
 ??? Hold the phone...Tyrone! I just stumbled on this video! Who is this guy...Reed Richards? Your telling me these two fighters are on one line....and he can make them dance like that! Where does he live?? Is he still alive? This was really incredible! I gotta find this guy and see this for myself. (Road trip) Is he this good? Or is he average? I am totally blown away! Here I am..struggling with my dual lines....and I see this. I ....I....am speechless....   :-[


Regards,
Chris


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: normofthenorth on July 31, 2010, 09:50 PM
Chris, Reed hangs around on both this forum and Bruce Lambert's (fighterkitecentral.com), IIRC. My impression (after only a few attempts) is that flying two or more fighters on one (forked) line reasonably well is WAY quicker and easier than (say) doing a good sport-kite trick routine.

Of course, you have to get the hang of flying ONE fighter reasonably well first, then you have to get two reasonably well-matched fighters, preferably not the fastest and spinniest fighters around, either. And preferably with the nearer one of the two fairly solid, so it will survive smacking into the line of the farther one.

The first trick is to "fly" whichever of the two is in bigger trouble, aka closer to the dirt. After some practice at that, you can start concentrating on "dancing".

Reed and others have written out some notes on how to proceed. A little swivel where the second line branches off seems to help.


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: UPNET on August 01, 2010, 08:30 AM
Thanks...now all I have to do is get me a Fighter...some line...etc. I did go to Fighter Kite Central...and saw how Reed sets up the forked line with the swivels...still...would be neat to hook up with one of these Fighter Kite guys...always found it easier if you can find someone who is good at something you want to learn...seek them out. Any Fighter kite flyers here in the South? Like GA.  KY.  ALA.  Carolina's? Or maybe in  OHIO, Illinois, Indiana.
Gonna check out Bruce's You Tube vids...maybe will end up making a couple...dunno. If any of you guy's see this...PM me or something.

Thanks,
Chris


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: mikenchico on August 01, 2010, 09:33 AM
Definitely watch Bruce's video's and plan on making your own.

But as an alternative One World Trading (online sales) imports Indian fighters and sells them dirt cheap, they even have a couple designed by Bruce Lambert, the Fusion series, that are manufactured in India for a more then reasonable price. You'll want the Mylar kites and reinforcing the edges with a bit of tape would be a good idea. A short tail say 3' of crepe paper might slow the Indians down just a bit without causing too many tangles.

We want more video  ;)

BTW did you catch the video of 29 fighters on one line?
Record Fighter Kites (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gN-DJrITp8#normal)







Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: UPNET on August 01, 2010, 09:48 AM
Thanks ....just ordered a set of 3 Fusion mylar...with the line. Will see what this fighter kite "thing" is all about!  ;D

Chris


Title: Re: If Glider SLKs Are Hot, Can Fighters Be Far Behind?
Post by: thief on September 22, 2010, 04:00 AM
Ginga discussion moved over to its own thread here in the Single Line kites area...