GWTW Forum

Kite Land Talk => Website Discussion => Topic started by: inewham on June 25, 2010, 05:09 AM



Title: Doom & gloom
Post by: inewham on June 25, 2010, 05:09 AM
Flying on the park the other day I was approached by a very nice lady who actually 'got it'. However rather than telling me I need a tail on that she opened the conversation with "that's a bit of a dying art isn't it..."

Seems even the public know kiting is on its knees  ::)


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Bob D on June 25, 2010, 05:24 AM
That depends on how much she actually knows about it. Her opinion could have been ignorance. She may have thought that when WE were kids, we went out to fly kites because we weren't distracted by electronics and media. Now, kites are mostly flown by older guys (me included). In that respect, it IS a dying art because what will happen after we're gone?

It doesn't have to be a dying art but I think we have to come up with a way to make it more accessible to younger people. I like what they're doing in NJ this year. Instead of holding the East Coast Stunt Kite Championship, they're doing more of a community outreach event. Though we have plans in the afternoon on the 4th, I hope to get out to help in the morning. Outreach and creating a community I think is key. (I wasn't around in the 90s when kiting was bigger so I don't know what made it so popular back then. Thoughts?)


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: RonG on June 25, 2010, 06:23 AM
Flying on the park the other day I was approached by a very nice lady who actually 'got it'. However rather than telling me I need a tail on that she opened the conversation with "that's a bit of a dying art isn't it..."

Inspiring...and sad at the same time.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 25, 2010, 07:19 PM
 :D :D :D

I was so hoping a thread like this would pop up!!

[Rant]

OK for those who don't know me, A 40 y/o male, I've been doing this kite flying seriously now for about 3 1/2 years and I'm based in Australia. As an occupation I'm a mid level photographer in the 'communication/marketing/PR' world. Doesn't make me an expert in anything it's a 'just so you know'.

Firstly, is there anyone on these forums that works in the industry of PR/Marketing? If so, I can just see them punching their screens every time this sort of topic comes up, I know I do.

To comment on inewham's observation... "on it's knees"

But what is 'it'?

Kites? I don't think so, kites will always be here in one guise or another, have been for more than 2000+ years and will probably continue regadless.

Modern kites then? nope, look at kite surfing and power kites in general, the constant elephant in the room in my thoughts on this topic, now that kite division is going gang busters.

SLK's, na, as long as there are straight sticks, plastic bags and string around there will always be at least one kite in the sky somewhere around the world at any one time.

So we're talking just 'stunt kites then'?

And this is the funny bit, it's not popular because we(and I mean the establishment, not us "Lone Wolf Freestylers") make it unpopular, we (them) perpetuate this 'whale song of lament'. The only problem I can see with this is that it just thinks it's unpopular and does nothing about it.

OK the word of the day is 'Cool' and this here sport suffers badly in the  perceived 'Cool' market, not that it has to be 'cool' per se, it's just that selling 'geeky' is a bit trickier in the general marketplace.

If I were to ask you to close your eye's  and picture a general 'dual line stuntkite flyer' what do you see?? I rest my case  ;)

Don't get me wrong, I think it's the coolest thing since sliced bread, but thats not what the general market see's.

Evidence of un-coolness (http://www.aka.kite.org/?cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b=of,m=1273439067) And if you read between the lines on some of it, it even suggests that people without training will not get it, and that's an official handout to perspective audience members, what with that? A little degrading is how I read it. (Oh and as an observation, it was updated it would appear in 2004, what progress has been made to this industry over the past 6 years?)

And on the "Get it/got it" line that's always rolled out on these threads...

I don't get that you don't get that people might just get it without needing to get it totally. Get it? Again I see this attitude that we keep telling the general pubic that they won't get us, it's like introducing yourself to someone for the first time and say "you probably won't like me to start with, but if you persevere..."

I could go on for age's on this, as you can probably tell ;)

I was discussing this 'un popularity' with a fellow kiter the other day, and the question came up 'How many of us are there?' We figured somewhere in the 3000-5000 globally mark, with about 10% being regular participants. Were we close?

My general view is that the sport of 'stunt kiteflying' is evolving into 'Freestyle flying', and at this point is to be considered as 'underground' rather than unpopular like Skiing was to Snowboarding in the 80's

bottom line, it won't change without a massive re-branding and placement into the 'cool' camp, weather by campaign or by natural evolution, otherwise it will be as it is.

[/rant]









Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: the*real*stoney on June 25, 2010, 08:55 PM
Winterdaze is dead on target. And the way to change the situation in your area is to step up rather than wait for someone else to start the engine. The Richmond Air Force in Virginia, a raggedy little kite club that operates on no dues, no officers, no meetings has been holding kite festivals across Virginia and into North Carolina. We started about when? 15 years ago? We started by approaching Parks and Recreation departments- first close to Richmond, then pushing north, south, east, and west. We are now seeing crowds of 12,000 in Salem-Roanoke, 3,000 in Richmond and in Winchester, about the same in Fluvanna County,and Beach Mountain in NC and no telling how many in Virginia Beach And we are building new festivals every year. In fact, they call us and plead for festivals in their areas.
Now I know that most sport kite fliers don't get overly enthusiastic about single line kites but that is where you have to start because they expect to see the single line kites. But you don't have to stay with the single lines. It's sort of like school. first you present the known and then you introduce the unknown. And, at the same time, you have to talk to the people in the crowd. Explain what is going on, answer their questions, show how to attach their fly lines-- all simple stuff. If you can generate good vibrations, the citizens will mention the festivals to their Chambers of Commerce. Those guys want wholesome activities in their communities because it's the wholesome people who spend the most money. So they boost the Festivals - advertise in their stores and shops. While you are presenting these kite demonstrations on a regular basis, children begin to see how how much difference lies between kites and computers and the next thing you know, along comes someone new. They come in crowds of ONE but when they show up, YOU talk to them,YOU make them feel comfortable. YOU tell them the flying schedule, YOU ask them to come to the next event.  YOU Offer to take a Photo of the whole family together. There are a multitude of things that YOU can put on the table.
Most of the time the guy looking for a helping hand finds it hanging out of his sleeve. Stoney


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 26, 2010, 12:09 AM
Down under it's possibly an even trickier situation to that in the US, we don't even have the comps to roll interest off, but at least there's an effort going on to include at least a freestyle demo set (in one small festival we fly a demo all day with only 3 flyers) into as many festivals as possible.

If we were to have a comp down here and all the freestyle fliers (& that's 'I can do an axel' and up) in the country came, there'd be about 20-30 I'd guess. So as I see it, we are starting from scratch.

I've now seen some of the threads on the AKA websites forum, and I think they're covering a lot of what people are thinking and saying. And as I read it, the reason that many things aren't being tried is because of 'scoring' and the entry requirements for the AKAGN.

Now does that just smell a little strange? We are lamenting (apparently) the death throws of Sports Kiting, and there seams to be a need to give it an approved 'out of 10' (yeah yeah I know, I read the scores in kite flying is not out of 10) to validate it.

Here's another flyers view, it's my personal view, (and I might just be representing a body of one here). But maybe I could be one example of what market you're trying to appeal to.

 I didn't start flying Freestyle kites because of the chance to compete, to me it's a release, a pleasure, a journey, and a way of expressing myself through an instrument of choice, in this case the kite.

Now as I learned that it wasn't as easy as it looks I went looking for information (advice, tutorials and someone to share info with; whats generally called a 'community': [an outcome of shared interest]).

A very basic start that's lead to here and now. As yet I still don't need a score to know how I'm going, I know full well, and against others there are some better and some worse, by how much, I don't care that much.

Now as some of you know I've entered Virtual Freestyle a few times and I'm a solid middle placer, I don't do this to win, but nor does it mean I don't try my guts out to put a good entry in.
I go to this effort so as to share what I've learned and how I'm applying it, I don't think there's a winner in this idea, just people having a good day on the lines. The winner seams to be in VF the most prepared person who has the best day on the lines on the day. I know it's a bit hazy on the details but that might just be the point.



A score isn't so important to me, but a chance to participate  in an expression session to show a perspective audience what I can thrown down with, now I'd be all over that like a Pug on food  ;)

Who got into this pastime for a score in the first place anyway?

Shannon
 


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Hadge on June 26, 2010, 04:48 AM
The problem is that modern ’stunt’ flying is a hard sell to Joe Public. Days were that kite flying was simple,  anyone could buy a simple single liner ( no offence to the SLK fliers ) and have some fun. The modern stunt/freestyle kite is a very different beast.

We live in a society that demands instant gratification in all things; plug & play, instant access, no experience required.  So when someone does come over and say “ Cool flying, how long would it take for me to do that”  and you tell them “ a couple of years with regular practise” most of them are turned off before they are even turned on.   If you then go on to tell them that “a decent starter kite will cost you about £60 but you can pay over £200 for a really good one” you can hear their jaw hit the floor.  Chances are if any are left they will go along to Toys r Us et al and pick up something for a fiver and get fed up when they can’t instantly go out and start performing JL’s ‘like that bloke in the park last week” . 

It seems that stunt kiting is destined to remain a minority interest sport for the foreseeable future.

Sorry for the negative imput!  :(

(http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:3NBJnRHpaSnsjM:http://espressosnob.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/eeyore6.jpg)



Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: kiten00b on June 26, 2010, 06:59 AM
kite flying is alive & well at the parks I fly at
we fly a lot of quad team and share the park with a bunch of buggiers and single line fliers
the public seems to 'get' and appreciate quad team, slks and buggying
modern whippy wappy dual lining doesn't seem to garner much attention, though adding a tail helps ;)


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Hadge on June 26, 2010, 07:24 AM
kite flying is alive & well at the parks I fly at
we fly a lot of quad team and share the park with a bunch of buggiers and single line fliers
the public seems to 'get' and appreciate quad team, slks and buggying
modern whippy wappy dual lining doesn't seem to garner much attention, though adding a tail helps ;)


Kite flying on your side of the pond seems to be much more popular and better supported than here in the UK. We seem to have families and kids on the beach ( and occasionally park) with cheap SLK's and stunters at one end of the scale and the serious kite surfers/ power kiters at the other end and not much ( apart from us enthusiasts) in between. Adults flying stunt kites without the kids in tow seems to be looked on as a little odd over here - " Are you going fishing mate?" " No, kite flying" que bemused look.  I've been flying in my local park for 3 years and I have never seen another flier.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: tpatter on June 26, 2010, 08:11 AM
Adults flying stunt kites without the kids in tow seems to be looked on as a little odd over here - " Are you going fishing mate?" " No, kite flying" que bemused look. 

Aggressive tricks like a good tip stab, 2 point landing, or comete tend to demonstrate the seriousness of what a kite can do - I'd even say its cool!

Last time I was out flying a group of 6 teenagers (all looking on the cutting edge of "cool" by the way) came up and asked me all sorts of questions about what I was doing.  None of them had flown before and cold not believe what could be done with a kite. 

I pulled out my old Quantum, showed them how to hook it up, and gave it to them to fly.  They had a blast for a few hours and asked me where they could get kites of their own (so I told them about out local kite shop and GWTW).

I think flying sport kites is just not well known.  Much like these kids, a few years ago I had no idea what was possible with a kite.   Most people seem to think that flying a kite means standing there holding onto a line - perhaps like watering a garden.
 
I think that Ray Bethel figured it out long ago - a great way to teach people about kiting is to show them why you love it so much.  The rest is up to them.


-Tom


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: inewham on June 26, 2010, 08:13 AM
Sorry, I aimed for brevity using terms like 'got it' but I'll just amend this:

Seems even the public know TRICK kiting is on its knees  ::)

SLKs, Quads and Power kites and even Stunt kites flown properly with tails are just fine.

For the record I wasn't lamenting anything, it was an unusual comment which was made at about the same time as I read another pessimistic thread.
Personally I try not to partake of the lamenting threads myself; the last time I met another sport kite flier on my local park was 1998 so I've long since got over that. I fly locally for fun, I'll attend an event to meet like minded people.



Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: normofthenorth on June 26, 2010, 12:02 PM
I'm pretty far out of kiting politics, but a story from sailboat racing seems relevant here. I race neat little 15' dinghies called Albacores. The class is VERY actively raced in a few places in the UK, Canada, and the US. Every two years there's a "world's" in one of those countries, which has to be called the Albacore Internationals (too few countries to be the Worlds legally!).

You used to have to qualify to compete in the "world's", by finishing near the top of a big event on a list of qualifying events. And each "world's" was a bit smaller than the last. In early 1999, the US organizers of the "world's" in October 1999 announced that this one would be "open". People could make vacation plans in advance, without having to wait to see if they qualify, because they did!

The Powers That Be responded as if the terrorists had taken over the US Albacore Association. And there are better reasons to be exclusive in this case than in kite competitions, IMHO: An incompetent sailor in a top-level competition can easily mess up somebody's start (and whole race), or even damage a top competitor's boat! (Not bloody likely in a kite comp, eh?)

But the event went pretty smoothly, with no more boat damage or complaints than usual, and a big roster and lots of smiles. And the Canadian organizers (and the Brits too, I think) followed suit. Anybody can enter the Albacore "world's" now. If you're no good at sailing and racing, you'll finish last. If you get in the way of the hotshots, you'll get yelled at and embarrassed, and might not show up the next day -- same as all our other races!

I find lots of cases in many organizations where people start writing elaborate rules to prevent various kinds of scary abuse -- abuse that usually never happens in places and times that DON'T have those rules. The rules often discourage participants, if only by suggesting that the group is one that NEEDS those kinds of rules to prevent nasty chaos.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: DD on June 26, 2010, 06:22 PM
...i see it now, "kite rodeo"; complete novice never flown kites before, the one that keeps it in the air the longest wins a prize :D

quality and quantity of wind play a part, very correct its a "right now" society. 'joe public' generally doesnt like to wait for wind.

used kites sell well at festivals i have been too, right out of the 'learn to fly' area. I try to have a kite or two to fly. around and would part with. I have spent much time there teaching others, even taught with a psycho in moderate winds.  Really wish i got a cut of the local kite sales increase when i go on vacation. Hot girls are fun to teach :P but on the flipside you get  "stay away from the scary looking middle aged guy whose into klites and want to teach my children" look
 maybe its bad to quote Jake: ;)
"how much for the women? how much for the little girl" -Jake from Blues Brothers



Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Beachbum on June 26, 2010, 09:28 PM
I tend to disagree with the "We're a bunch of older guys" comment, though I totally understand the basis behind it.

I'm not going to go into that "We need to change" or any of the AKA bs also.

Kiting will never go away, it will change on it's own.  Maybe not in the sense of how are "We" stateside folks are going to do it, but perhaps foreign influence will take over again.  Then again, I dunno, but faith manages.

Hell, even if West side events like KP, Berkeley, WISKF were to somehow disappear kiting would not die off.

Even if heavy hitters like Prism, Revolution, and HQ (Not picking on the US) were to disappear overnight kiting wouldn't die off. (Cuz they won't die off)

Interests always shift, even globally, and kiting, both literally and figuratively is just something that changes with the wind.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: mikenchico on June 27, 2010, 09:56 AM
...you get (the) "stay away from the scary looking middle aged guy whose into klites and want to teach my children" look


That's always a concern today isn't it? It's best if you can approach the parents first, but that's not always possible when the kids approach you on the field. In that case look around, are the parents in sight and aware of the kids approaching you? If not I talk with the kids while continuing to fly, no lessons until the parents are monitoring the activities.

Hot girls are fun to teach  :P

In that case look around and see if the wife is in sight ... and aware that they approached you  :D



Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Allen Carter on June 28, 2010, 02:17 PM

Interests always shift, even globally, and kiting, both literally and figuratively is just something that changes with the wind.

Yeah, my take on all this is that when all is said and done, kite flying just isn't as interesting to people as it has been in the past.

There were two big WOW periods, for the general public the second built on the first.

In the '70s a lot of people saw a wide variety of kites for the first time. The first big festivals came around and there was the emergence of modern materials like mylar and nylon in production kites.

In the mid '80s to early '90s festivals that got rolling over the previous decade got a boost from "stunt kites". a big WOW. Teams with stacks of kites with tails from this era still make money doing demos at airshows and stuff.

By the end of the '90s a number of generations had gotten their WOW! and while many come back to festivals and bring their kids, it just isn't a new thing in the public consciousness anymore. Just another outdoor event to think about attending.

The jump from "WOW!" to "I Want To Do That!" is a fairly small percentage of the general population. So if less people are wowed these days, less people try it.

There are all kinds of things people do to promote kiting, bring some wow back, etc. All good stuff, but no matter what you do, kiting just isn't as interesting to the masses as it was. Sure kiting has changed over the years, and some of what sport kite flyers do isn't as interesting to civilians as the old trains & tails stuff, but it's mainly the culture that's changed, not kiting.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Beachbum on June 28, 2010, 05:32 PM

In the mid '80s to early '90s festivals that got rolling over the previous decade got a boost from "stunt kites". a big WOW. Teams with stacks of kites with tails from this era still make money doing demos at airshows and stuff.


Yeah, super WOW, as all new s#!t that the 80's produced!  Looking back at all the different designs and mind-f**k color schemes it's more like a WTF era....

I'm going to blame the Brits like Andy P, Paul L, Robertshaw, and everyone else involved in Tricky Flickery for killing it by introducing trick flying.  We would have been just fine if we stuck with stacking kites and putting on air shows!


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 28, 2010, 08:37 PM


There are all kinds of things people do to promote kiting, bring some wow back, etc. All good stuff, but no matter what you do, kiting just isn't as interesting to the masses as it was. Sure kiting has changed over the years, and some of what sport kite flyers do isn't as interesting to civilians as the old trains & tails stuff, but it's mainly the culture that's changed, not kiting.

Allan,

With all due respect... Given our current 21st Century issues; economic, environmental, and personal health wise, the idea that kiting is off the radar of the general public may well be correct but it is not because of the public, but the fault of the sports kiting industry.
As evidence I point you to Connor's sudden popularity, over 1,000,000 hits on his videos! Does no one see this as a million opportunities?? even if you got a take up rate of 1/100 you're still looking at 10,000 new participants, and that was from 'one' display of his skills!?! If a concerted marketing/media effort to alert/educate the GP is not rolled out on the back of this then the fault lies squarely on the industry.

OK If I was the boss of this and I was truly interested in growing the sport and therefore many business bottom lines, this is what I'd do...

Get the major manufacturers together, and get a commitment to create a collaborative re-branding campaign, TBH this would be a golden gig for a good advertising agency, and I bet you could find an up and coming agency to do it almost pro bono publico (for the public good) just so they could put a (biggish) feather in their cap.

Get a collaborative DVD produced, demonstrating the best of the best Kites and Pilots and give the bl00dy thing away! Or if you must sell it, price it at $4.95, the whole idea of spending $30 (1/3 the price of a good cheap kite) on a 'how to fly it' reference is a little outdated now don't you think? (Personally I'd be trying to get it included in some kitesurfing magazines, get it stuck on the front cover with a little rubber cement. it worries me when the only mags on the shelf in Australia that have the word 'kite' in their titles don't have one reference anywhere in them that out sport exists, someones dropping the ball big time there)
I'm sure it's been a good little earner for those who did them, but now lets move forward (the newest one must be 5 years old now [Soul Deep's "Trick or Treat" 2006]...) And lets face it, apart from the Micron, there isn't even a currently manufactured kite in the Prism DVD. I think the phrase 'sitting on your hands' comes to mind. I know the info is fairly up to date, but what other progressive industry is relying on 5 year old marketing material? That you have to buy??

Next, write something 'positive' about flying kites, in a format that can be easily translated into a 'lifestyle/sport' story, we call it a 'press release' where I come from. These days upwards of 50-80% of what you are reading in the newspapers or watching on the box is provided by this method of information dissemination, may not be good but it's the truth. Include some contact numbers and quotes from pilots under the age of 30. NO rolling out of people who thought the good old days of circles and squares with tails were the best, sorry but we're now moving on to a sport/past-time that's really, really challenging and exciting. So maybe we should find some youth representatives!?! Rolling out a portly 50+ Y/O in a tilly hat as a spokesperson, regardless of their experience, is not a good impression to leave on the GP. period. Sorry but that's the truth.

Face it, we (everyone, GP included) knows that a kite can go round and round with or without a tail, what they don't know is what they can do now! I know there are going to be a few noses out of joint, but TBH I think the reason the old guard is holding onto the 'they don't get it' card is because there aren't many of the old guard that can fly quality freestyle, but just because you can't do it, don't spoil it for the rest of us by bitching and moaning about it, This sport requires developing fast motor skills and quick reflexes, this, by it's physiological requirment is a young person's game, pure and simple.
I've demoed it in public and I fear I'm far from being good enough to really showcase what this sport could offer, yet I can tell you, if shown even my average skills on the lines, the GP do get it! The whole idea that we can assume what the GP gets and doesn't get is just plain arrogance and has no place in this discussion, I think it even boarders on chronic elitism.

At the end of the day we are offering to the general public something that improves hand eye coordination, spacial awareness, cardiovascular health, aerobic and anaerobic capacity, a pastime that rewards practice and patience, encourages problem solving in a 4 dimensional way, and teaches greater awareness of environment. All wrapped up in an activity that the output is seen as an expression of oneself. Tell me if you can, whats so hard to sell about this??? If I was in marketing and I was handed a brief of launching this new sport and this was what I was supplied with I'd be over the moon, it's an easy job....

But that's not all, the real hook that we have is that this sport is piggy backing off 2000+ years of free 'feel good factor'. I guess 60% of the humans on this planet alive today have flown a kite at some point in their life and enjoyed it. That is, in marketing terms a potential market place of what, a mere 3.5 billion people plus

So given all of that, which bit of this is difficult??



Oh I nearly forgot... Allan, kiting has changed  8) ;D :-\



Oh and BTW just to declare my own interests....



I don't actually want it personally to be any more popular than it already is, we're running out of room at my kite park as it is, and any more participants would mean I might have to 'wait my turn'.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Beachbum on June 28, 2010, 09:46 PM
Every thing you just typed down, is, well, ummmm.....

...though I do like the enthusiasm in the ideas you proposed, but we are talking about kites.

Rounding up major manufacturers would kill the competition that pushes out newer and better designs and turn a major portion of the beginner level kites into a homogenous shade of blah.  Beginners also go for aesthetics.

There was and is a major advertisement for kiting with the advent of the Red Bull flight team.

Sport kiting is pretty old, so though we codgers may not attract the hip, young crowd, it should speak volumes that we were once young and were doing this.

There is already a health and wellness ad for the GP with kite surfing, and Prince Harry does it too.

Ironically, the same thing that helps exposure also hurts us, namely Youtube.

Finally, the whole "people who get" vs. those that "dont" might be a bit misconstrued.  It might be better to think of it "Those who want to get it" vs "Those who would rather watch everything on Youtube."


Shoot, I did forget, Everything has changed 

EDIT:  Holy crap!  I finally found it!
Here:http://tvshack.net/tv/Lewis_Black_s_Root_of_All_Evil__US_/season_1/episode_4/

For the quick version skip to 9:50, but overall it's a good episode.  Patton's rant starts at 7:10





 


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 29, 2010, 12:59 AM
Every thing you just typed down, is, well, ummmm.....

...though I do like the enthusiasm in the ideas you proposed, but we are talking about kites.

True. Optional answer 1/ And with that the industry that supports it, designers, manufacturers and retailers included. And I apologise for sound a little passionate, Feel free to tell me to STFU anytime, it didn't take me, 'a dyslexic' anytime at all to knock that out, just a few hours (of my time) and only a few minutes of yours to read it, and that's only if you want to.

Optional answer 2/ Gosh you're right, what was I thinking... it's just kites, who cares about them.... And look at me getting enthusiastic, what was I thinking.

BB, a question... what are you hoping to get out of reading this thread? A conformation of it's demise? Or a glimmer of hope that all is not lost?

Quote
Rounding up major manufacturers would kill the competition that pushes out newer and better designs and turn a major portion of the beginner level kites into a homogeneous shade of blah.  Beginners also go for aesthetics.
Not to make a single company, just some targeted marketing and promotion, in this case I was thinking another DVD, I know they inspired me, maybe I'm not the only one...
I'm sensing that many smaller boutique manuf. would find it hard to fund a production of a DVD themselves, but by working together with the goal of making something they can all use to help promote the sport might not be a stupid idea.
Many other sports do it that way... Skiing/Snowbording/wakeboarding/skating and even Kite Surfing do it this way. The words you look for are 'Proudly sponsored by'.... and then a list of brands

Quote
There was and is a major advertisement for kiting with the advent of the Red Bull flight team.
So we can call that one... and that was by Redbull, an outsider soft drink company, who I might add is pretty cutting edge with the sports they chose to support... (I'm yet to see the RedBull lawn bowls team). And to be honest seeing an outside industry using our sport as a vehical to promote their product says something. I see more real estate brochures picturing kites than I see published promotion of the sport.

Quote
Sport kiting is pretty old, so though we codgers may not attract the hip, young crowd, it should speak volumes that we were once young and were doing this.
It does, but that's those already doing it, I'm speaking of bringing some new blood in, hey I'm nearly 40 (next month) I think I end up with the old codger badge then ;)

Quote
There is already a health and wellness ad for the GP with kite surfing, and Prince Harry does it too.
And with the lawns available to him I can only imagine that his VF entry would be well received, but as you say, he's kite surfing, not freestylin', my point is he probably doesn't even know it's out there.

Quote
Ironically, the same thing that helps exposure also hurts us, namely Youtube.
How?

Quote
Finally, the whole "people who get" vs. those that "dont" might be a bit misconstrued.  It might be better to think of it "Those who want to get it" vs "Those who would rather watch everything on Youtube."
My point exactly, promoting it might just get some of those overweight kids (and adults) off their bums and outside, and maybe, just maybe save a few folk from an early grave  ::)


Quote
Shoot, I did forget, Everything has changed...
slowly but surely.




 


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Beachbum on June 29, 2010, 02:12 AM
I F'ING swear I'm gonna drop kick this computer.

WTF I can't quote and do all the cool stuff without the text window scrolling up and I can not even see what I am typing.  Piece of &%#*ING &%#*!

OK, so second try here.  First of all I say Glimmer of hope, and I mean conformation, or ensuring that our sport is going no where in the good sense.

STFU?  No way man.  I dig your enthusiasm.

As for the How? on the Youtube comment, I mean c'mon, Patton put it out there pretty good, which also leads into the fat (I'm not for being PC, ie "overweight") kids comment.  People now have the "Buy it now" equivalent on that website.  They get interested, inundate themselves with videos of us flying our asses off, then get over it.  Nothing "active" involved.

The whole point is that kiting has always, how do I say this, worked with "active" participation.  Like ex-kitehead said, the 80's were all about being part of it.  Everything is different now.  It's important that we push our hobby, but yet again, there is no amount of money that will make it "Take off" like it did. That's life.

Then there is the DVD comment....I guess it's best to say that you had to be there, at that point of time at least.  If you search through my postings I have referenced a 10 year old video when someone has asked how to axel.  I totally agree that we need a fresh, new, downloadable, free, media source to keep truckin'.  My concern is that we can go too far with a trick intensive vid, and a new flier will go WTF? then go on Youtube, or even the net in general, and look up all the stuff, then get over it.

Finally, as I try to not kick this laptop into the next century.  I'm 28.  I started a long time ago at the age of 7.  I watched the guys fly and they let me handle their very expensive kites.  I saw the changes from air show to trick flying and the decrease of fliers and newcomers frequenting the "motherland".  In no way was I trapping you WD, but I have seen how well a peer to peer system works versus indirect methods.

EDIT: Aw crap, I forgot to reinstate my "Zen" moment,

Kiting is peer to peer.  Keep flying, and acknowledge onlookers and hand them the lines.  I am not above giving someone the controls to my main whip.  In the end though, I have seen more returns with those who fly a stack, or something with tails than something that can axel.




Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: DWayne on June 29, 2010, 01:37 PM
In the end though, I have seen more returns with those who fly a stack, or something with tails than something that can axel.



I think it boils down to what the GP understands. They understand circles, figure eights, triangles, etc. They don't understand comete's or yo-fades.

Denny


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: freecheese on June 29, 2010, 02:16 PM
Piece of &%#*ING &%#*!

Wow, what's the censored word? OK, this was funnier before the original quote was edited...


I get loads of attention when I'm flying freestyle, I think it just depends on how you go about it. Obviously, if you just smack the kite around in a sloppy mess, most people will not be very impressed, especially if you ad-lib a few "landings" (I'm not saying I don't do this myself, btw!). If you execute a few concise moves, not that quadruple-wrapped inverse fractured comete you can almost nail, but something you can do very well every time (even carving a plain old square in the sky is an eye catcher if done well), people will notice. The next step is to make yourself approachable. If you just keep flying with a look of fierce concentration on your face, most folks will just watch quietly for a bit then move on. Would you walk up to a musician and start asking newbie questions in the middle of a tune? No way! Hot dog it for a bit, then land the kite, drop those straps, and acknowledge your little audience with a smile.





Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 29, 2010, 07:33 PM
They don't understand comete's or yo-fades.

Denny

Either do I ;)


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: WinterDaze on June 29, 2010, 07:57 PM
BB,

Thanks for your considered reply and view on this, I notice that this thread has had over 700 reads, I am going to assume that there are quite a few curious folk watching from the sidelines, weather they are interested in the outcome of this discussion on just waiting for a potential verbal blood bath to break out is tricky to ascertain, as there are many eye's but few voices  ;)



You bring up some very good points, and I don't deny that the modern world is full of 'other distractions', and that immediate gratification is our biggest hurdle to the growth of this sport, but that doesn't make it impossible, just a lot harder than it was 'in the good old days'.

TBH I feel like a bit of a d!ckhe@d ranting and raving on like this and I'm sure there's a few folk out there that feel the same way, certainly there has been little enthusiasm for the position I have taken on this. So for now I'm going to step away from this. I have created another topic here (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=3462.0) and encourage the watchers to take a quick look. Again I think most of you will again think I'm a bit of a DH for even proposing such an idea. But at least it will conclude the points I'm trying to put forward and save you from anymore of my impassioned rants.

For the record, Doom and Gloom are mind sets, and therefore changeable if you have the desire.



Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Jason Winter on June 29, 2010, 10:01 PM
I think the general public is beyond hope. Especially here in Ustraaalia. The fields I fly on are 3 cricket pitches and there is usually cricket on in the summer on 2 out of three of them. I have seen young boys of 10 yrs doing bowling practice for 3 hours solid and when they look away across the field at the kite they are told, "don't watch the kite, that's gay"

On another occasion a your cricketer stuck his car in a ditch in the pouring rain. I pulled it out for him. As we were all stood around the lads father approached and asked his son how he got his car out. The son replied, "the kite-weiro helped me"


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: lasapcheong on June 29, 2010, 11:06 PM
Maybe I'll throw a little bit of curveball into this one...

If you want to impress a typical "man in the street" non kite flying crowd, stop doing tricks with a dual line. Fly a Rev. Seriously, an adequately proficient Rev flyer is capable of doing more wow-able (sp?) moves in sh!ti-er wind compared to a world class dual line kite flyer in semi-good wind.

For the record, I fly both and enjoy the flippy-floppy dual line stuff more than Revs :)

-Darryl


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: tpatter on June 29, 2010, 11:20 PM
Whoa!!  That cannot go unchallenged!   ??? ???

If you are talking the run of the mill,  crashes the kite every minute dual line flyer, then I buy it, but world class - not even close!

An adequate Rev flyer has shown his stuff in about 30 seconds of flying.  A world class dual line flyer can keep blowing you away with new stuff even after 5 minutes.  It's all about ACTION!

 


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Jason Winter on June 29, 2010, 11:31 PM
Nope, sorry. I disagree.

I was at a festival, Blackheath i think it was sometime in the late 90's and the cream of british trick flyers were there. Tim Benson, Bungle, Richard Marsh, Big Gary, the Mullins boys, and others. All tricking away in one corner of the arena. A father and son walked past with their newly purchased2 line delta and the son asked the father what they were all doing. The father replied, "oh, they're beginners son, that's why they keep crashing"

People just do not get it.

They would rather watch a rev, or something with a long tail or team or pairs than tricks/freestyle.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: inewham on June 30, 2010, 02:41 AM
Maybe I'll throw a little bit of curveball into this one...

If you want to impress a typical "man in the street" non kite flying crowd, stop doing tricks with a dual line. Fly a Rev.

Top quality flamebait there  :D

However, I do agree. I'm not getting into an argument about whether they get it but maybe its just easy to understand what's happening with repeated spin, dive, stop 3" off the floor, likewise anyone can enjoy pretty shapes drawn with a tail.

Remember the first time you saw a comete, did you understand what was going on? I didn't. However there is the dilemma, what looks good for everyone else isn't going to keep the flier entertained.

I fly for my own amusement not anyone else's, so I'll stick to my flippy-floppy stuff.

I think it was ABW who said 'trick flying is like masturbation, satisfying for you but no one else wants to see you do it'  :P




Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: david barnby on June 30, 2010, 08:55 PM
kite surfing seen through different eyes

me: looking at the kite and what it is doing

everyone else : watching the amazing athlete at the other end

separate the two, athlete on a surf board, dual line flier on the beach - i think the surfer will get more attention

i even think a middle ager on a surf board would get a larger audience than an athletic kite flier but am not volunteering  :)

gloomy, no. I bet at least 90% of the gwtw forum members still love kites - our population hasn't reduced, we just post less and we were always a small population


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: bt on June 30, 2010, 11:09 PM
+1 with David.
Way more people go ooh aah when the kitesurfers are out and I am flying....quads 80% of the time.
I`m thinking a train with long tails doing figure 8`s and loops will attract more attention than the latest dual trickster doing the stuff they do, or a quad for that matter. Fighters get attention....if you put a tail on that thing it will fly better....hah..
So yes I also agree with the kite trick argument. I get ultra bored with dualies flip flapping all over the place but I most certainly DO appreciate the practice and skill to pull them/that stuff off. NOT my style...I`m a quaddite and a 2 dualies at once fellow. Folks are intrigued when they see 2 kites at once being flown by one person.....but generally it`s in passing.
Very rarely is there another kite at the beach and usually it`s a cheapo mylar slk but that`s ok, as at least they are enjoying themselves and if they take it any further is up to them.
Just take a look at some of the inane and insulting comments on Connor Doran`s youtube page as to why people don`t get it... Granted there are a slew of moronic posters and postings but the fact remains...
Unfortunately there is a lot of instant gratification out there. When someone asks why my kite is flying wonderfully in a wisp of wind I explain the equipment and above all the amount of practice involved....some get it and some don`t.
On top of that I`m selfish. I like having the beach to myself...it`s my sanctuary away from the craziness of the music biz.
Kiting isn`t dying or going away. It`s just changing as anything else does. It goes in cycles.
Besides aren`t all the real cool things exclusive and in small niches?? Who wants to be like the norm? We are the 1%`s folks!!! Go fly a kite.
bt


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: Beachbum on July 01, 2010, 12:04 AM
Well shoot guys, since we are doing the whole gambit why not talk about FIGHTER KITES?

I mean if you thought kite buggying and surfing were physical, shoot, then look at the fighter kite comps.  Talk about full contact!  Even the spectators get hurt!

So, though this might be bordering, actually embracing, the ridiculous how about we try dual and quad line fighter comps and exhibitions?

I think the Fighters should get more attention before this thread croaks.


gloomy, no. I bet at least 90% of the gwtw forum members still love kites - our population hasn't reduced, we just post less and we were always a small population


I love my kites, but I'm part of that 10%, that hates your kites.  Let's go...


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: david barnby on July 01, 2010, 12:48 AM
Well shoot guys, since we are doing the whole gambit why not talk about FIGHTER KITES?


I think the Fighters should get more attention before this thread croaks.


gloomy, no. I bet at least 90% of the gwtw forum members still love kites - our population hasn't reduced, we just post less and we were always a small population


I love my kites, but I'm part of that 10%, that hates your kites.  Let's go...

i think the 90% love fighter kites too - we all seem to like all kites

the 10% i was thinking about are not around for far more gloomy reasons - many have passed


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: zippy8 on July 01, 2010, 06:53 AM
I fly for my own amusement not anyone else's...
Bingo.

Frankly other people "not getting it" is part of the attraction. Long may it continue.

Mike.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: indigo_wolf on July 01, 2010, 07:59 AM

i think the 90% love fighter kites too - we all seem to like all kites


And yet, kite festivals seem to be an extreme exercise in segregation.  ???  :-\   >:(  :( :'(

ATB,
Sam





Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: thief on July 01, 2010, 08:11 AM

i think the 90% love fighter kites too - we all seem to like all kites


And yet, kite festivals seem to be an extreme exercise in segregation.  ???  :-\   >:(  :( :'(

ATB,
Sam

thats just cuz those rev people need so much darn space.............  ;)


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: lylenc on July 01, 2010, 07:38 PM
Frankly other people "not getting it" is part of the attraction. Long may it continue.

Mike.

+1  That leaves more beach and kite field for the rest of us.  8) Zen on and don't worry about 'em! My motto with kites and investments is: Unconventional and going against the herd. If too many people get into it, it's time to move on to something else.


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: lasapcheong on July 01, 2010, 08:14 PM

An easy all or nothing solution. Stick an SLK behind a Rev.  :D There you go, you either impress the socks off somebody, or not. I know I was pretty amused myself - goal achieved.
-Darryl

[to save space attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Doom & gloom
Post by: KiteLife on July 25, 2010, 10:50 AM
Kiting will never go away, it will change on it's own.  Maybe not in the sense of how are "We" stateside folks are going to do it, but perhaps foreign influence will take over again.  Then again, I dunno, but faith manages.

Hell, even if West side events like KP, Berkeley, WISKF were to somehow disappear kiting would not die off.

Even if heavy hitters like Prism, Revolution, and HQ (Not picking on the US) were to disappear overnight kiting wouldn't die off. (Cuz they won't die off)

Interests always shift, even globally, and kiting, both literally and figuratively is just something that changes with the wind.
Agreed 100%... I don't buy into the whole doom and gloom idea either, it's all cycles and transitions.

Public interest will continue to ebb and flow, mostly irregardless of what we do from inside kiting.

Kite type popularity rises and decreases too (i.e., show kites, Revs, duals, etc) as different formats and outspoken folks rotate through... My favorite always, is when different aspects combine or work together (directly or in proximity "dueling banjo" style) for an even bigger show.