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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: aland on August 04, 2010, 08:54 AM



Title: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: aland on August 04, 2010, 08:54 AM
Hello,
I have a Silver Fox 2.3 UL which I'm enjoying very much. The one complaint is the weight, it's a tank. I live inland where the winds rarely allow me to fly it. My question(s) are: would reframing the kite to lighten it up change the way it flies, better or worse? Would it be worth it? If so, what would be the best sticks to use? I know buying a better, true UL would be the way to go but there aren't many options here to test fly other kites. Plus as I mentioned I do really like the kite.
Thanks


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: adx1592 on August 04, 2010, 09:03 AM
depends on what's in the kite already.
Reframing the kite can also take away a lot of momentum with tricking, so beware of that. You can add weight, but that could potentially create oversteer if it's all in the tail.

Again, not sure what's in it, but a lot of UL's have 3pts and sticks like that in it.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: aland on August 04, 2010, 09:48 AM
It has "Dynamic" T12 and T15 which I'm not familiar with. Don't know the weight or stiffness compared to better rods.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Dolphinboy on August 04, 2010, 10:29 AM
It has "Dynamic" T12 and T15 which I'm not familiar with. Don't know the weight or stiffness compared to better rods.

I think Dynamic's rod names correspond to the weight and type. T12 = tapered 12g. The Ds are straight. D12 = straight 12g etc. I haven't ever had any trouble with Dynamics but they seem springier than SS rods.

What are the frame specs on the 2.3UL? I used to have the 2.5 UL and I think the LS were T15. So you may swap out the LS with something lighter first & see what you think. It may be hard to get the weight off a SF just by reframing, I think you'd have to go with P90, P100, T10, 2PTs on the LEs and maybe T12 / 3PTs on the LS. Take a look at the weight of the spine too but I'd probably change that last.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: kiten00b on August 04, 2010, 10:37 AM
T12 weigh about 12 grams

T15 weigh about 15 grams

Skyshark 3Pts weigh about 12.5 grams, 2Pts weigh about 9 grams

the cost of a new frame & LE connectors would be a significant % of the SF 2.3 UL's cost

the cheapest option might be swapping the stock LE connectors with TAPA connectors (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=95), you'd save several grams for each connector, but you'd have to re-size the holes to fit your stock spars


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Steve on August 04, 2010, 10:39 AM
Quote
Dynamic's rod names correspond to the weight and type. T12 = tapered 12g. The Ds are straight. D12 = straight 12g etc
That is correct


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Dolphinboy on August 04, 2010, 10:47 AM
Good point on the LE connectors. I forgot what LE connectors the SF UL used but if they are APA or similar changing APAs to TAPAs will save about 1/2 oz alone.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Allen Carter on August 04, 2010, 11:27 AM
I'd say the most bang for the buck would be to use P90s in the LEs and spine, and re-purpose the T12s for lower spreaders (if they are long enough). Lighter LE and other fittings help. A lighter upper spreader will be needed to ballance the kite. All this won't make a really light UL, but will help.

Getting the static ballance the same is a good starting point on a reframe. Hold the stock kite over your head ballanced on the spine on your finger tip. Mark the sail at the ballance point. Weight, length and position of the upper spreader is a main way to tune a kite after a reframe.

Reframing a kite can be a huge time suck, and you can end up with a kite that sucks. Be prepared to put the kite back the way you found it.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: aland on August 04, 2010, 12:11 PM
Thanks for all the advice. Gives me some things to try.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Steve on August 04, 2010, 12:24 PM
Quote
Reframing a kite can be a huge time suck, and you can end up with a kite that sucks. Be prepared to put the kite back the way you found it.
Words to live by.
Wish I had known that back in the day  ::)


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: tpatter on August 04, 2010, 12:29 PM
Quote
Reframing a kite can be a huge time suck, and you can end up with a kite that sucks. Be prepared to put the kite back the way you found it.
Words to live by.

True!  See the "what makes a $500 kite" thread.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Steve on August 04, 2010, 01:09 PM
Quote
True!  See the "what makes a $500 kite" thread.
How does that possibly apply to this thread?


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: tpatter on August 04, 2010, 02:08 PM
Quote
True!  See the "what makes a $500 kite" thread.
How does that possibly apply to this thread?

You can spend alot of time and money trying to make a kite better - its part of what you are paying for when you buy one (I think).


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: FlyingJoe on August 04, 2010, 02:43 PM
Quote
Reframing a kite can be a huge time suck, and you can end up with a kite that sucks. Be prepared to put the kite back the way you found it.
Words to live by.
Wish I had known that back in the day  ::)
Agreed.  As much as I LOVE to tinker, I'm letting the wisdom of others influence my kite modifications.
Another reason this forum is great!!!


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Dolphinboy on August 04, 2010, 02:56 PM
I've reframed several kites and it's not always as straight forward as it seems like it will be when you 1st dive in. I eventually got them all flying well but be prepared to swap things around, change tail weights and maybe tweak the bridle a little too. This takes time but I have a better understanding of how changes affect the kite's flying / tricking. Anyway, I feel it was time well spent for the knowledge gained. Try to have fun with it and then you'll have the enjoyment in that no matter the outcome.


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: aland on August 04, 2010, 04:10 PM
I think selling the house and moving to the coast will be easier. ;)


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: Dolphinboy on August 04, 2010, 06:37 PM
I think selling the house and moving to the coast will be easier. ;)

Now you're talking. Wind is the key to better tricking :)


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: lasapcheong on August 04, 2010, 10:32 PM
It doesn’t seem as straightforward as it seems. I realized this also when I was trying to reframe one of my earlier dual lines into a lighter kite. Part of it was changing the 3PT lower spreaders into P90s. After the reframe I found that though the kite is lighter in weight, it doesn’t seem to have better drive in lower wind. Upon closer inspection, it seemed like the more flexible P90 LS is flexing a lot more, a byproduct of the standoffs exerting more pressure on the rods and indirectly changing the sail profile. The original specs already had the sail stretched kind of tight.

-Darryl


Title: Re: Reframing a Silver Fox??
Post by: KaoS on August 05, 2010, 04:20 AM
...
would reframing the kite to lighten it up change the way it flies, better or worse? Would it be worth it?

Assuming you are going to use a readily available frameset (Skyshark) it is going to cost you around $50 to buy the rods, and you'll probably need to buy nocks, ferrules, leading edge fittings and T-piece too.  So it could cost around the $70 mark.   Just on a cost basis I'd say it probably isn't worth it for a Silver Fox, especially as the benefit is unknown at this point (no-one seems to have done it).

The Silver Fox range are all framed robustly (i.e. can seem like tanks in lighter winds), but they are great kites to hone your skills on.

If you have a significant number of days when the SF struggles in the light winds it would probably be a good idea to look around for a dedicated light wind kite.  A quick look at the forum earlier this year will show you that there are many to choose from and plenty of different opinions as to what might be a good one.  Good luck if you go down that path!