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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: cids on August 07, 2010, 08:47 PM



Title: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: cids on August 07, 2010, 08:47 PM
Currently I'm using 55kg/100ft. lines from low wind to high wind(25km. or 15.6 miles max) for trick flying.  I tried longer lines before and I don't like it.  I have better control of the kite with 100ft. lines.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: zippy8 on August 07, 2010, 09:56 PM
To answer your thread topic's question - no, there isn't.

Edit:- after careful consideration I've unlocked this. If you do post a reply PLEASE attempt to answer the question (or reiterate that such an answer does not exist) and not merely state what line length and weight you prefer to use.

Onwards.  ???

Mike.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: 711jrp on August 13, 2010, 03:13 PM
45rpm is just about right, 33 is a bit slow and 78 is just crazy!


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: KaoS on August 13, 2010, 06:30 PM
On a serious note...

I usually do tricks on either 60 feet or 75 feet lines.  I hardly ever fly any further away from the kite than that


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: DonCrash on August 13, 2010, 07:22 PM
I'll bite  ;)

Preferred flying line is basically what you are truly most comfortable with. However, even your preferred length will also depend upon the kite. There are certain length of lines that will do better for you on Kite A vs Kite B which you may have to resort to using a different length just cuz it does better. However, a person who keeps at it and perseveres (using a non-preferred length line), may find themselves liking such line eventually, or perhaps not. That doesn't quite answer your question directly, as there is no general ideal flying line length, but there is an ideal flying line length for each person per kite.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Lee S on August 13, 2010, 07:25 PM
I'd always thought of 100 ft plus line lengths as more suited for competition. My personal favorite length bounces right around a 10 to 1 line length to kite wingspan ratio, sometimes more like 11 to 1. So, I fly 8 ft kites on around 80-85 ft.  Right now I'm flying 3/4 sized kites when I do fly, so a 6.5-7 ft kite is working at about 75 ft. 


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: DWayne on August 13, 2010, 07:53 PM
I'll say its mostly personal preference but is somewhat kite dependent too. I rarely fly on lines under 100' but my Talon UL really doesn't do as well on 100' lines as it does on 75' lines.

Denny


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: JimB on August 13, 2010, 08:52 PM
You're welcome. ;)

You might want to bump your line length up to about 75ft though. It'll help smooth things out.

Use the line length that is suitable for what you are attempting to accomplish.

Personally, I lean towards shorter lines most of the time, but it is hard to do insane cascades on anything shorter than 100-125ft without running out of sky pretty quick.

I would agree that certain kites seem to do well with a particular length.

Once you get under about 75ft., you are into a different sort of flying. A lot of kites aren't really designed to go that short IMO.

Not that you shouldn't fly that short but, it is different.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: kiten00b on August 13, 2010, 09:15 PM
wind speed and kite size are factors, but for trick flying I like the 65-75' range best


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: RonG on August 14, 2010, 07:12 AM
125'


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Will Sturdy on August 14, 2010, 08:40 AM
114'
Occasionally I'll drop down to 100' with a UL in swirly winds when I need to be able to quickly stay in a moving wind window.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: RonG on August 14, 2010, 08:42 AM
114'
Occasionally I'll drop down to 100' with a UL in swirly winds when I need to be able to quickly stay in a moving wind window.

126.7'

111.8' for light wind.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: zippy8 on August 14, 2010, 09:06 AM
(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Smilies/Devil.gif)

Mike.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Will Sturdy on August 14, 2010, 10:30 AM
I have an excuse - that's the length I need to keep an even stagger in team flying   :)


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Allen Carter on August 14, 2010, 10:49 AM
75' for some kites, 100' for some kites, 125' for others.

I generally don't enjoy shorter lines but zero wind can be easier on shorter lines.

All totally a matter of personal choice based on flying style, field size, wind, etc.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on August 14, 2010, 11:20 AM
Yeah, it's a personal choice. But the closer you get to the kite, the easier it is to toss around, your windows shrinks though. Also, where you fly can be the determining factor too, many places don't have much room so line length choice is pretty much what there is room for.

If you like tricking and combos where you keep the kite in front of you most of the time and go from trick to trick, short is cool. But there is less window space and some tricks just work better with longer lines, the insane comes to mind. Plus anytime you're flying / tricking down in a smaller window, the ground is always closer too. If you like more precision and flying between your tricks use the longer lines.

In standard wind, I like 75-85' lines depending on where I'm flying. Keeps the kite close but it still gives me enough room. I used to fly 100' or more always but I started using shorter line because of the field where I was flying and I liked them. Sometimes I'll break out the 50' just for fun.

In UL winds I use 50 - 65' 80 lb. SUL  35-60' 50 or 80 lb.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: freestyle on August 14, 2010, 12:13 PM
Well, I am not an expert but I found it depends on the kite and how awake I am. I tried flying my Manga on 75 feet and realized I needed 10 red bulls to keep up with it. On the other hand the Vendettas I have like much longer lines, it seems to help the balance, but they fly slowly so I could fly them on shorter lines if I wanted and not lose control of them. They're also not really all out trick kites like the Manga. But I am geologically old and have the reflexes of a sloth so...

I'd be tempted to say there may be an ideal length for you and your kite. The Manga and the Next kites I have do well on 90 feet (88' 9" including straps LOL) but that is all I have right now. I am making 110 feet since I reckon they'll like that better (90 lbs) The Vendettas love long lines, I have used 130 - 140, but really that is ballet and precision.

So after all that gibberish ... yeah whatever Ron and Will said.

Cheers



Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: jaybett on August 15, 2010, 01:32 AM
Longer the lines, the smoother the tricks.

There is a little more time with long lines, to figure out what is happening. Which is helpful for inland winds.

Short lines, less then 100', you can really vary the tempo of tricks, from slow to fast. A good example is Tim Benson, when he gives a hard pop, the Deep Space, really moves. 

I find it easier to trick on long lines, because there is some built in slack in the lines. Now if I were stringing tricks together, I'd want to be flying on shorter lines.

The ideal length for me, is a hundred feet. It's close enough to learn tricks, but still long enough to practice figures.

Jay


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: zippy8 on August 15, 2010, 04:43 AM
If I may interject at this moment with a little analysis so far:-

for the question "is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?" the results so far are

  • a mean of 94.35' (arithmetic average)
  • a median of 90' (central value when values listed in value order)
  • a mode of 75' (most frequent value)

As I hope we can all agree there really, truly and honestly is not an answer to this question. And I'm almost certain someone said this a while ago  ;)

Feel free to continue if you like.

Mike.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: lylenc on August 15, 2010, 07:54 AM
It doesn't take much of an open mind to read between the lines (words) to understand there is more depth to the question than a quick and literal reading would indicate. There is an answer, but it is different for each person. It's a range of line lengths based on the kite, flying conditions, one's persoanl preferences, and the skill level one has attained.

The variety and range of others' line length preferences and (more important imho) the reasons for those preferences gives beginners a few starting points, in order to narrow down the search for their own personal preferences and an answer to the question. This makes for a worthy topic, question and discussion.

Sometimes these questions serve old-time flyers well, too. I get in a rut and do the same old things out of habit. Once in a while, a topic will remind me there is an answer that is better than the one I've been using, for the current stage of my kite flying adventure.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: tpatter on August 15, 2010, 09:59 AM
A related subject is weight and stiffness.

Oftentimes I've noticed that switching from 90# to 50# makes a dramatic difference in the performance of the kite, particularly an SUL.  If you are flying the SUL at its mid to upper range, then longer 90# often helps - bigger window, more time, more drag on the kite. At its lower end, I like shorter 50# line.  In the middle range, it does not matter so much.

You also want a line that minimizes stretch.  The feel of the kite on the lines is dramatically different when flying a high quality line like LPG versus a cheaper line.  One has a steady consistent pull, the other has a rubber-band-like feeling due to the stretch. 

I was shocked the first time I directly compared this by switching out lines for someone I was showing how to yoyo their kite.  I have no idea what line he was using (it looked reasonable), but it felt so springy that there was little hope of tricking with it with any consistency.

-Tom


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: flat6nut on August 15, 2010, 10:34 AM
If I may interject at this moment with a little analysis so far:-

for the question "is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?" the results so far are

  • a mean of 94.35' (arithmetic average)
  • a median of 90' (central value when values listed in value order)
  • a mode of 75' (most frequent value)

As I hope we can all agree there really, truly and honestly is not an answer to this question. And I'm almost certain someone said this a while ago  ;)

Feel free to continue if you like.

Mike.


I have actually learned something from this thread. Just from the opinions of each person...it helped me understand things alot better.  Your answer did nothing to help me.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: bfranz on August 15, 2010, 01:02 PM

As I hope we can all agree there really, truly and honestly is not an answer to this question. And I'm almost certain someone said this a while ago  ;)

Feel free to continue if you like.

Mike.

I really don't understand this mod's problem with this thread. Granted, the OP's question is a little open ended and liable to generate a large number of imprecise and/or off-point responses - this is the Internet, though. When I look back through the pages of replies to the $500 kite question, I wonder why THAT thread didn't cause him to complain. Could it be that rambling, on and off and sort of on again discussion is ok if the topic is suitably advanced but not if it'e elementary? If you need, Mike, I'll Express Mail you a large bottle of Ibuprofen.


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: Nitrobex on August 15, 2010, 04:33 PM
If I may interject at this moment with a little analysis so far:-

for the question "is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?" the results so far are

  • a mean of 94.35' (arithmetic average)
  • a median of 90' (central value when values listed in value order)
  • a mode of 75' (most frequent value)

As I hope we can all agree there really, truly and honestly is not an answer to this question. And I'm almost certain someone said this a while ago  ;)

Feel free to continue if you like.

Mike.


I have actually learned something from this thread. Just from the opinions of each person...it helped me understand things alot better.  Your answer did nothing to help me.

I actually find Mike's reply kind of helpful he did the math for me, the mode of 75 is very helpful as it is the most frequent number

The arithmentical mean is just the numbers mashed togeather so not much for me.

The median helps  know where the center line is, so on an opinion based matter with 90 being the middle of the road, most people chose 75 making it the most popular and showing most people like shorter rather than longer...

Your mileage (Or footage in this case) may vary  8)


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: DWayne on August 15, 2010, 05:27 PM
I think it'd be more helpful to have a list of the kites 75' lines are too long for, too short for, and just right for.  ;)

Denny


Title: Re: Is there an ideal flying line length for doing trick flying ?
Post by: obijuankenobe on August 16, 2010, 02:42 AM
I try to answer the question.  No.   ;D

If you increase your line length, you'll notice your window gets much larger.  This is often the best reason to use longer lines (>100ft).  You'll need to have the space for it, but it's nice.  I know people that have taken two lines sets and attached them end to end while still being able to do tricks.  The kite is less pretty to look at for the flier when it's nearly 200ft away, however.  And the longer lines you use, the more bowing or sagging you will get by default (more weight).  This bowing is essentially a damper between you and the kite, as it the stretchy-ness of your line material.  Tricks requiring sharp accurate inputs require much more precision inputs when using long bowed lines (or stretchy line) because the input reaches the kite with sort of a slow ramp of power, rather than an instant pop.   

If you decrease your line length, your inputs reach the kite faster IN GENERAL, given you are using good static line with little stretch.  You'll also have a shorter narrower window, which means less reaction time before you hit the deck as well as faster side to side passes.  You will get from top to bottom or left to right faster...not so much because the kite flies faster, but because it flies a shorter distance.  Because the kite is closer, you can see it's behavior better.  That's handy with small kites especially.  This is also handy as a beginner because walking to set up the kite after a crash takes less time.     

You'll also want to start paying attention to line strength, as this also comes into play.  You want to use line strong enough to hold the kite no matter how the wind blows, while not using such heavy line that it creates bowing due to weight alone.  (Thicker heavier line will also introduce more wind resistance, slowing the kite.  This can be useful in higher wind situations.)  As I said above, if you lines are bowed, you'll need to first take up that extra line before your input will actually reach the kite.  This can make precise timing of inputs more difficult, but you can compensate for this with practice.  Of course, line weight and the particular kite you are using will all factor into this part.  A kite that pulls hard (like an XTs) can pretty much pull tight any line you use.  An SUL might not pull any lines tight.

Generally speaking, a reasonable middle ground is the best place to start.  Often folks that try my kites comment on how long the lines are, but after a few minutes of adjustment, don't notice.  But you can take any of these parameters (line length, strength, or the particular kite) and tweek it to where the result is less than optimal or even not all that fun.

Your best best is to have a decent line set around 20-25m long, and another around 35m long.  With these two sets, you'll be able to decide what direction you want to explore with further investment.  Of course, on both ends of the scale, there is a point where you will be clearly outside the optimum range.

obi