GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: cids on August 23, 2010, 06:43 PM



Title: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on August 23, 2010, 06:43 PM
I recently saw a kite tricking video from youtube and the kite always landing on its wing tip(left or right) between a series of tricks like rolling susan, axel cascade, comete, lazy susan etc.  I never seen anyone doing so many tip stands between tricks.  It is very impressive to look at.  :o  Is it difficult to do in real life ?
Thanks in advance for your valuable inputs.  :) :) :)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: tpatter on August 23, 2010, 08:19 PM
Best thing is to practice holding the kite on a tip first so you get the feel for how it feels and how to balance the kite.  This can be fun to work on just on its own - you can start with short lines or even the leaders to get a feel for it.  Lean the kite back quite a bit and its easy to keep it balanced.

From there you can work landing the kite in that orientation.  It's easier to do from a 45 degree angle to start with.  Then, straight down.

Good luck.  I was going to try to describe how to do the actual input, but I can't quit decide how to explain it - maybe someone else can.  Best I can think it to call it a half-axel-like input of maybe more of a snap-stall where you time it to have the kite leaning back with the stabbing leg forward to hit the ground, then maintain balancing it.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: GEB on August 23, 2010, 09:46 PM
Hi Edmond,

Learning to land on the tips can be hazardous to your lower leading edges and nocks until you get the timing right. Here are a couple of suggestions.

1. Practice balancing the kite on tips, as suggested above.

2. Practice the coin toss.

3. Fly with something on the horizon behind the kite and use that as a reference point to simulate the ground. When you can consistently stop your wing tip on that imaginary point you are ready for landing on the real ground.

4. Try landing on real ground during low winds at first.

5. Fly across the window slowly, just a foot or two off of the ground, with one wingtip pointing directly at the ground, then step forward quickly until the tip touches the ground.

6. Try step 5 coming down at a slight angle and slowly increase the angle as your timing improves.

With practice you will be able to increase the accuracy and speed at which you can land this way by doing what is essentially a modified snap stall. That is a stall with one wing tip pointing directly at the ground vice both wingtips parallel to the ground. You can make the final touchdown by leaning forward, extending your arms forward or stepping forward as the tip gets close to the ground.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: zippy8 on August 23, 2010, 10:54 PM
Tip Stab (http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Spike) - landing the kite on one wingtip.
Tip Stand (http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Tipstand) - holding the kite on one wingtip.

What to say ? It's landing the kite at an angle then keeping it there. If you can do a two point landing, just turn the kite 90 (or turn it 90 less) before you hit the ground. Then move onto the Black Hole (http://fracturedaxel.co.uk/wiki/tiki-index.php?page=Black+Hole) to show the kite and the ground just how much you hate them both.

As for Tip Stands.... anything less than 8 minutes (https://sites.google.com/site/dpmama74/kites/personal-best) isn't even trying.

Mike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: GEB on August 23, 2010, 11:11 PM
Edmond,

Martin - MAMA74 has some great studies and tutorials for learning tricks.

Check your personal messages.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on August 23, 2010, 11:30 PM
Black Hole ... very interesting.
Is there a video available regarding this trick ?


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: lasapcheong on August 23, 2010, 11:30 PM
Sorry to digress but...Wow! Really...  ???

https://sites.google.com/site/dpmama74/kites/personal-best : Taz in a row (fly left, taz, fly right, taz, fly left....): 122

-Darryl


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: zippy8 on August 23, 2010, 11:56 PM
Black Hole ... very interesting. Is there a video available regarding this trick ?
The only two related videos I can find are:-

  • misnamed - it's from horizontal flight which just demonstrates that people have been getting trick names wrong for years
  • is a variation called a Suzuki - dummy one way, flick back the other to stab

If you really want to do the Black Hole you'll be wanting a flatter kite than is commonplace today. If I'm feeling brave I might give the Element a shot at it but spar breakages are~were always hovering in the air with this trick so... perhaps not.

Mike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: RonG on August 24, 2010, 05:32 AM
If you really want to do the Black Hole you'll be wanting a flatter kite than is commonplace today. If I'm feeling brave I might give the Element a shot at it but spar breakages are~were always hovering in the air with this trick so... perhaps not.

Miguel Rodriguez and Brian Champie flying the Cal Wasp.  No more need be said on the subject of Black Holes  8)

KEY ELEMENTS: ►Clear and decisive stab. ►Held on the spiked wingtip for minimum 2 seconds.

I want to point out the bolded portion above.  Simply "landing on a wingtip" is not a tip stab.  I've seen plenty of people stall just above the ground and float down onto a wingtip and call that a "tip stab".  It's not.  The wingtip has to be driven into the ground quickly and with considerable force.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: JimB on August 24, 2010, 08:56 AM
Yeah, that's a tip stab.

A Black Hole is even more so.

Brian explained it to me as a vertical side slide to a one point landing.

He starts his slide into the ground about 15ft up. He then goes on to drive it down into the ground in about One Second, maybe less.

It is very impressive.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: zippy8 on August 24, 2010, 09:27 AM
The wingtip has to be driven into the ground quickly and with considerable force.

Exhibit A.

(http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Stuff/Tip%20stab%20with%20attitude.jpg)

Mike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on August 24, 2010, 10:39 AM
The wingtip has to be driven into the ground quickly and with considerable force.

Exhibit A.

([url]http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Stuff/Tip%20stab%20with%20attitude.jpg[/url])

Mike.


This is a violent act.  :D :D :D   
May be I should save it for another day or year since I don't want to kill my Fxxkixg kite.  ;) ;) ;)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Gamelord on August 24, 2010, 02:19 PM
Then move onto the Black Hole to show the kite and the ground just how much you hate them both.

Mike.

Now thats funny!  :D


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on August 24, 2010, 02:26 PM
What are the sequence of tricks that I need to learn before I'm ready for the Black Hole ?

Steps to learn the Black Hole...
1. learn to stand on wing tip(left and right)
2. learn to stand on wing tip after lazy susan or rolling susan etc.
3. snap stall
4. tip stab
5. and then the ultimate Black H :) le  ?

Or is there a better steps or sequence of tricks for the BH ?

Is this the Black Hole move on 1min. 26sec. in this video ?
TNT Std. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiURxFU-Jmo#lq-lq2-hq-vhq-hd)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: RonG on August 24, 2010, 03:18 PM
What are the sequence of tricks that I need to learn before I'm ready for the Black Hole ?

Steps to learn the Black Hole...
1. learn to stand on wing tip(left and right)
2. learn to stand on wing tip after lazy susan or rolling susan etc.
3. snap stall
4. tip stab
5. and then the ultimate Black H :) le  ?

Or is there a better steps or sequence of tricks for the BH ?

Is this the Black Hole move on 1min. 26sec. in this video ?
TNT Std. ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiURxFU-Jmo#lq-lq2-hq-vhq-hd[/url])


No, that is not a Black Hole.  It's a variation on a tip stab.

Seriously, I doubt there are very many modern kites that would perform it correctly.  It's a trick that exploits the characteristics of a fast, flat-sailed kite, and there aren't very many of those left in general circulation.  In fact, a good old-fashioned powerful tip stab is not really a strong suit of today's deeper-sailed polyvalent kites.  This was evident at a lot of our Tricks Parties - competitors were perfectly comfortable when asked to perform a Jacobs Ladder or Rolling Cascade as a compulsory, but sweated bullets when assigned a "simple" tip stab.

Just about every advance in sport kite design comes with a trade-off.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Allen Carter on August 24, 2010, 03:50 PM
Couldn't find a video of a Black Hole, but this slo-mo animation shows how much straight DOWN drive there should be at minimum.

(http://www.kitefart.com/images/waspani.gif)

It should be a very fluid, very agressive, move. Tough to make look good. The noise of a kite like the Wasp adds to the drama.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: inewham on August 25, 2010, 01:31 AM
Not a black hole but I stumbled on this
Kite Tip Stab (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=12I6fB7KmcU&feature=player_embedded#)

while looking for the one Mark Reed does with an Eclipse UL on one of the Prism trick videos. That is a really nice driving tip stab.
Don't suppose it ever found its way on to you tube?

EDIT Hah! it did - nice stab here at 2:08
Prism Trick Show (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y34CB8oAJM#)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Mr.Derrick on August 25, 2010, 02:43 AM
The Spike including Tipstand even is good Positon for a nice take off. I like versions as:
Spike - Flapjack(out of Tipstand) -Tipstand
Spike -Taz (-Tipstand)
Spike - Slot (-Tipstand)     @ 0:35
Curious Tip Landing & Tipstand to Slot (http://www.vimeo.com/14413917)


And:
a good, hard spike is one of the best ways for showing outstanding people that this, what your are doing with your kite, is deliberately - an comet (for example) looks for those ones often only like wild line-rowing.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: zippy8 on August 25, 2010, 03:11 AM
Steps to learn the Black Hole...

6. Stock up on replacement spars.
7. See 6.

Also from Prism is this (http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Videos/tip-stands-two-edit-mpv.avi). Again NOT what I'd call a Black Hole (but then again people have been known to disagree with me... oddly). IIRC the Black Hole is a powered up vertical dive, then a snap 90 turn but the kite still travels vertically down (a vertical side slide as it were). You essentially pull the lower wing into the ground.

I may have to pull my recently acquired Cali Wasp out but I don't want to hurt it either. What a dilemma. :-[

Mike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Allen Carter on August 25, 2010, 09:10 AM

I may have to pull my recently acquired Cali Wasp out but I don't want to hurt it either. What a dilemma. :-[

Mike.


"Don't take it out unless you are going to whack it!"

http://www.kitefart.com/ (http://www.kitefart.com/)

A wasp is the last kite that should be coddled.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Allen Carter on August 25, 2010, 09:15 AM

Also from Prism is this ([url]http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Videos/tip-stands-two-edit-mpv.avi[/url]). Again NOT what I'd call a Black Hole (


That's what I call a classic tip stab. Firm enough so folks know you mean business, but not really harsh. Mark does nice looking stabs. A harder stab used to be called a Spike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: bryan beasley on August 25, 2010, 11:39 AM
Get thee an 'Element' (or a 'Masque' actually thinking out loud) and a bunch of spare sticks and whack away. What you'll find though, is that if you are able to smash the tip 'straight' into the ground you'll be fine. It's when you're drifting sideways that breakages will happen.

Bryan


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Allen Carter on August 25, 2010, 11:52 AM
And of course the follow-on ollie take off attempt with the wingtip tip 3" in the ground...   :D


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on August 25, 2010, 01:02 PM
Quote
.....with the wingtip tip 3" in the ground...    :D
You can take a break, go for a piss and the kite still standing there.  :D :D :D :D :D   See. No hands.  ;)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: John Welden on August 25, 2010, 06:20 PM
Yeah, that's a tip stab.

A Black Hole is even more so.

Brian explained it to me as a vertical side slide to a one point landing.

He starts his slide into the ground about 15ft up. He then goes on to drive it down into the ground in about One Second, maybe less.

It is very impressive.

Exactly right Jim. That damn WASP could tip stab (vertical side slide) from the top of the window.   ::)

A good tip stab is one of the best most dramatic moves. Excellent for ballet routines.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: FlyingJoe on August 25, 2010, 09:52 PM
That damn WASP could tip stab (vertical side slide) from the top of the window.   ::)
Hmmm.  Mine must be broken then.  Or else I'm just not whacking it hard enough?
 :D


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: lasapcheong on August 25, 2010, 10:16 PM

Exactly right Jim. That damn WASP could tip stab (vertical side slide) from the top of the window.   ::)




Look at 3:42 - 3:50 of this video. The only one that I have seen on the web. A vertical tip stab/slide from the top of the window down into the tip on the ground.

Jinx Sport Kite by Focus Kite Designs - Demo Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNKUeNusiw#)

-Darryl


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: JimB on August 25, 2010, 10:18 PM
It's the single most impressive trick to me, so simple but it takes a lot of control.

Spending an afternoon watching Brian Champie slamming Black Hole after Black Hole ranks right up there as one of my best days flying a kite.

One thing: you need a lot of wind. Brian was looking for about 15mph before he felt good about them. When the wind was lighter he was pulling the kite right out of the air.


Yeah, that's a tip stab.

A Black Hole is even more so.

Brian explained it to me as a vertical side slide to a one point landing.

He starts his slide into the ground about 15ft up. He then goes on to drive it down into the ground in about One Second, maybe less.

It is very impressive.

Exactly right Jim. That damn WASP could tip stab (vertical side slide) from the top of the window.   ::)

A good tip stab is one of the best most dramatic moves. Excellent for ballet routines.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: tpatter on August 25, 2010, 11:19 PM
Lam showed me a cool trick at WSIKF - he called it the hatchet (I think the tricks been around awhile).

As I recall, you zig-zag down the window and end with a tip tap.  It was pretty cool to watch him to do these again and again in the 15+ mph winds we had on Thursday.  I wish I had taken some video.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: FlyingJoe on August 25, 2010, 11:32 PM
Spending an afternoon watching Brian Champie slamming Black Hole after Black Hole ranks right up there as one of my best days flying a kite.
Ah yes.  How I miss the Bay Area for reasons just like this!


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: zippy8 on August 25, 2010, 11:43 PM
Since we're trawling the archives...

Hatchet.
Another power move that looks better on a windier day. Picture the kite moving from left to right, about 15 feet high. At around the middle of the window, it starts on a tight downward arc. 90 degrees into the turn, in flattens briefly, and then stalls facing _left_, still dropping very fast until it stabs the deck. The stab happens a fraction of a second after the arc begins, to give an idea of the timescale.

Kobi Eshun
May 26 1995.


The zig-zag Black Hole is a Suzuki. This is one of the earliest kite video (http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/Videos/SUZUKI.AVI)s I still have. It's an archaic file format so you might not all be able to play it. Weirdly VLC won't play it but MPlayer will.

Suzuki.
Basically, he starts with a screaming nose dive, cuts into a horizontal pass at about 5m, and then immediately flares into a Hatchet.

Kobi Eshun
Aug 15 1995.


Mike.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: John Welden on August 26, 2010, 05:56 AM

Exactly right Jim. That damn WASP could tip stab (vertical side slide) from the top of the window.   ::)




Look at 3:42 - 3:50 of this video. The only one that I have seen on the web. A vertical tip stab/slide from the top of the window down into the tip on the ground.

Jinx Sport Kite by Focus Kite Designs - Demo Video ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwNKUeNusiw#[/url])

-Darryl


I'd rate that a 1 out of 10 compared to a WASP.  It's one trick where the it really is the kite and not so much the flyer.  Modern kites have too much drag sliding sideways.  It's good for slow side slides, but bad for stabs.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: RonG on August 26, 2010, 07:18 AM
I'd rate that a 1 out of 10 compared to a WASP.  It's one trick where the it really is the kite and not so much the flyer.  Modern kites have too much drag sliding sideways.  It's good for slow side slides, but bad for stabs.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This, although some fliers were able to exploit the characteristics of those old, flat kites better than others.

I'm still looking through my old kite stuff for video of one of Miguel and Brian's pairs routines.  Every variation of tip stab under the sun.

Also fun as an auditory experience, since 2 Wasps could make enough noise to drown out the sound system (punctated by sudden silence when they stabbed).


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: John Welden on August 26, 2010, 09:02 PM

This, although some fliers were able to exploit the characteristics of those old, flat kites better than others.


I agree 100%  Brian and Miguel are tip stab gods.  ??? Didn't matter how much wind there was, 30mph, no problem.


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: cids on September 02, 2010, 05:04 PM
This is a car version of a Tip Stab !  :D :D :D

http://www.videobash.com/video_show/very-good-driver-1745 (http://www.videobash.com/video_show/very-good-driver-1745)

+
This is the human version !  :D :D :D

http://www.videobash.com/video_show/fat-guy-lake-cannonball-fail-458 (http://www.videobash.com/video_show/fat-guy-lake-cannonball-fail-458)


Title: Re: Landing on the tip !
Post by: Schook on September 03, 2010, 06:57 AM
Construction site tip stab   :o

http://www.videobash.com/video_show/amazing-cat-loader-tricks-680 (http://www.videobash.com/video_show/amazing-cat-loader-tricks-680)

jim