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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: tempest on November 04, 2010, 04:15 AM



Title: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tempest on November 04, 2010, 04:15 AM
or are they the same ?


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: zippy8 on November 04, 2010, 09:19 AM
<The owners of this illustrious kite must be busy>

According to this post (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=2904.msg26413#msg26413), the Tattoo is a variant of the SUL... and even more S SUL.

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: in.divi.dual on November 04, 2010, 09:24 AM
<The owners of this illustrious kite must be busy>

According to this post ([url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=2904.msg26413#msg26413[/url]), the Tattoo is a variant of the SUL... and even more S SUL.

I thought, that the Tattoo had just the needle holed outline of the applique' present on the SUL.

However, most of the recent Tattoo's I've seen pictures of seem to be lacking this feature.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 04, 2010, 10:03 AM
Since I commented on the thread that Mike posted a link to, I have now flown the Fearless SUL probably 5-6 times. I own a Fearless Tattoo.  I have flown them side by side and the Tattoo is lighter, feels lighter on the lines, seems to fly in a bit less wind and does most tricks slower. I think the regular SUL tricks easier and flies and tricks closer to the Std. & Light than the Tattoo. 

Wind ranges are so hard to give accurately because of all the variables. I usually use the best case winds when I do try & give ranges but I usually fly in inland shifty winds. So I'll just say I guess maybe a 1/2 mph gain with a Fearless Tattoo over a SUL. In good wind the Tattoo will show some drive when the wind gets over about 2ish but can be used lower. Again, the quality of the wind makes as much of a difference as the speed. In shifting or meandering type winds you'll need more.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tpatter on November 04, 2010, 11:10 AM
I've only ever flown the Tattoo.  I have noticed that (and most flyers tend not to do this) if you adjust the nose angle on the kite that it will dramatically affect how it flys in lower winds.  The setting that it comes with is ideal for tricking (middle knot on mine if I recall correctly), but it you move it down one (more nose forward the way Lam rigs it), you can get more drive in lower wind - tricking is still fantastic as well.  If you like more pull and have wind, try the top knot.  It takes 2 seconds and you can just go right back to your other knot if you like.

I never really adjust the Fearless, but I do move up/down one knot occasionally with the Transformer TL depending on the wind.  Like I said, it flys great with the standard setup, I only adjust it for ultra low of high winds.

Weight is the other thing - adding a bit more weight to the tail (or removing it if you like) really affects the rollup speed, but little else on the kite that I noticed (other than ultra-low wind performance I imagine).  It's just as turtle-based with less weight, but I like the easier yoyos.  I don't add too much, perhaps 8-10g more mostly to the standards and vents - his lights and SULs I generally like as they come.  I've also talked to flyers who like less weight, so it's all in what you like.  The point is that the kite reacts well to AoA and weight modifications.

So, my guess would be that Lam by default adjusts the AoA and weighting differently on the standard default SUL than he does on the Tattoo.   


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: in.divi.dual on November 04, 2010, 11:21 AM

And ... what about the needle holes ... the "tattoo" ? Whatever happened to that idea ?

Does a Tattoo version cost the same as the SUL ?



Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: zippy8 on November 04, 2010, 11:22 AM
but it you move it down one (more nose forward the way Lam rigs it), you can get more drive in lower wind.....  If you like more pull and have wind, try the top knot.

It took me a moment to fathom this but a picture (http://www.skysportdesign.com/images/product/fearless/IMG_2123.jpg) always helps.

Am I alone in thinking this is a bit upside down ? If~when the main bridle legs need replacing you'll need to retie all of those adjustment points again as well (maybe this is why making one takes so long ?) but if, as others do (http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/kites/CTC%20Ghost%20LE.JPG), you put the adjustment knots on the short length that attaches to the frame then you don't.

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tpatter on November 04, 2010, 11:28 AM

Am I alone in thinking this is a bit upside down ? If~when the main bridle legs need replacing you'll need to retie all of those adjustment points again as well (maybe this is why making one takes so long ?) but if, as others do ([url]http://www.elisanet.fi/mike.emery/kites/CTC%20Ghost%20LE.JPG[/url]), you put the adjustment knots on the short length that attaches to the frame then you don't.

Mike.


Yeah, it's backwards from others designs.  In reality, most folks don't really ever adjust it at all and I've only moved it forward one and back to middle.  Lam expects you to just hook up the lines and fly - no real reason to mess with it at all unless you are trying to get ever last bit of performance in trying conditions.

The bridle you showed would scare the tar out of me - you could spend days just trying out various settings.  :)



Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: zippy8 on November 04, 2010, 11:37 AM
The bridle you showed would scare the tar out of me - you could spend days just trying out various settings.  :)
It's at the US and the LS too ;) with a few more at the centre-T. Same thing though; try a few out, settle on one, leave it be for the most part.

So... the Tattoo's tattooing - optional, cost ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 04, 2010, 11:45 AM
The Tattoo does have the Fearless design but just tattooed on (pin holes). Mine is gray and doesn't show up as much as the black unless it's back lit. The SUL and Tattoo are priced the same. Lam does some other things differently on them too. The performance difference is quite noticeable when flown side by side.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: johnfarl on November 04, 2010, 11:53 AM
My understanding of the Tattoo is that Lam was short of thread on the tTatoo.  It raised his profit level. Joke.

I don't think there is any difference between Tatoo or not Tatoo.  Frame, sail, bridle and all are the same.  Weight difference is too small to make a difference.

I added some weight to the tail of my SUL and it tricking improved a small amount.  Little easier to roll.  It flew about the same maybe a little better??????  It seems to fly straighter and have sharper corners but I think that is because of the slight increase in inertia my inputs are crisper.

The Fearless SUL is my most used kite and it is a fantastic kite.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: in.divi.dual on November 04, 2010, 11:59 AM

Regarding the tattoo ... my mistake ... here is another shot of the one for sale

(http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/8639/tattoot.jpg)

Its just very hard to see this when not backlit I guess:

(http://lh3.ggpht.com/_dLi_8FA6nA4/S2DsbyqjeEI/AAAAAAAAAtY/o4Z0krr37JI/s400/seal%20bch.%20kite%20fest%2009%20063.jpg)







Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 04, 2010, 12:20 PM
I keep saying it, The SUL Tattoo and the SUL are noticeably different in how they fly and trick. I have it on good authority (myself) ;D
It could be that Lam has made mine different, I wanted it to work in the lightest wind possible but that's just a thought and not a known fact..


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: obijuankenobe on November 05, 2010, 09:45 AM
Lam weighted the spine in his SD's if I recall correctly (not just the tail weight). If you broke and replaced the spine without noticing the weight near the center T, you didn't have a SD anymore once you replaced the spar.  And it was always hard to find out exactly where and how much weight he used in the spine.  In fact, I don't know if I ever figured that out, so my standard was never as good as when I first got it.  Only when I got other SD's did I notice that the spine was weighted near the center T and deduce that the standard must have been as well.  When I asked about it, he said I should try whatever works.   

If he does the same with the SSUL and the SUL's of the Fearless line, this is most likely where the largest difference is found.  Just a guess.

obi


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: bigwheels on November 05, 2010, 01:18 PM
And he will let you keep guessing. ss


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Kantaxel on November 05, 2010, 04:12 PM
I keep saying it, The SUL Tattoo and the SUL are noticeably different in how they fly and trick. I have it on good authority (myself) ;D
It could be that Lam has made mine different, I wanted it to work in the lightest wind possible but that's just a thought and not a known fact..

We have both the SUL and the Tattoo..............There is considerable difference in the way they fly even if using the same spreaders............(3PT or 2PT)  Lam told me it was the difference in applique and non and the mass because of the different weights used.......I find the SUL easier to trick becasue it is more tolerant of my heavy hands........

Personally, my belief is that every one of Lam's kites is just a bit different from all the others...........HOWEVER, it doesn't bother the way HE flys them...(maybe just us mortals)

James-
Two years ago when we got into Fearless the price difference between the Applique Sul and the Tattoo was $100...................I'm thinking that the lack of Applique on the Tattoo makes sewing time longer as Lam has to follow a silver/grayish line rather than a piece of material.....in other words, he's got to put on the glasses ;D

We have since decided to List the Fearless as Tattoo, SUL, Light, STD and Vent,,,,,,,,,,of course with the different variances in Vented and non Vented and...............ummmm.........Bridles? ;).................I heard a rumor once that there is a vented Tattoo, but, of course can't confirm............. :-\

JIm


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 05, 2010, 04:31 PM
Lam has made a Vented SUL, he didn't say it was the Tattoo sail.

If there is enough wind, I like the SUL over the Tattoo for over all tricking.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: freecheese on November 05, 2010, 04:48 PM
Lam has made a Vented SUL, he didn't say it was the Tattoo sail.

Oh no, you did not just mention a vented SUL. Wars have been started with less provocation.

I got a chance to fly it at WISKIF. It's a regular SUL (aside from the venting, which I suppose is quite irregular), not a tattoo.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 05, 2010, 04:59 PM
Lam has made a Vented SUL, he didn't say it was the Tattoo sail.

Oh no, you did not just mention a vented SUL. Wars have been started with less provocation.

I got a chance to fly it at WISKIF. It's a regular SUL (aside from the venting, which I suppose is quite irregular), not a tattoo.

I'm not planning on running out and buying one...... But I really want to fly it :)
So, what do you think?


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: freecheese on November 05, 2010, 05:16 PM
I'd have to have more time on it to really get a feel for it. The whole week was a learning experience, and that day I learned I needed to completely rethink my light wind flying.

I can say this, though, it was a beautiful kite, and Lam did stuff with it I had never seen before. It really inspired me to get out and practise some fundamentals.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tpatter on November 05, 2010, 06:46 PM
It is a secret weapon - I only know of 1 other than Lam's.



Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Kantaxel on November 05, 2010, 07:46 PM
So.........the rumor that you have more than six kites IS TRUE? :D :D :D


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: zippy8 on November 05, 2010, 09:34 PM
Lam told me it was the difference in applique and non and the mass because of the different weights used.......
OK... the second I can understand, the first I'm simply going to add to the large pile in the corner marked "Legends of the Fearless (and no other kite)" and leave it at that.

I think perhaps we've now answered the original question though:- they are different and differ in similar ways.  :o

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Dolphinboy on November 05, 2010, 11:41 PM
Legends of the Fearless


Has a nice sound to it, Cool 8)


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Kantaxel on November 06, 2010, 01:25 AM
Legends of the Fearless


Has a nice sound to it, Cool 8)

Yes it does...........and  Mike  ???   .............I can think (well maybe actually I can't think, ie) that the drag created by applique on the lifting part of the wing could probably change the flight characteristics of the wing..........maybe even substantially................so maybe the pile should be diminished just a tad to compensate?   :-\


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: zippy8 on November 06, 2010, 01:39 AM
that the drag created by applique on the lifting part of the wing could probably change the flight characteristics of the wing..........maybe even substantially................
Well if we're all going to speculate wildly.... the nano-scale venting of the Tattoo "probably" shifts the pressure centre on the sail too.  ::)

But this leads us back into the "140# or 170# bridle line" argument again. And madness. Let's not, shall we ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Kantaxel on November 06, 2010, 02:09 AM
 :(


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tempest on November 06, 2010, 05:35 AM
Thanks a heap guys, for all the inputs and info on the subject.
 I can see that these kites differ from each other.



Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tpatter on November 06, 2010, 09:54 AM
This discussion has my interest piqued - I thought I had tried every Fearless model that there was. I'll have to give your SUL a go on the hill sometime Jim.

Sounds like it is between the tat and light in overall required wind and pitchy attitude.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: Kantaxel on November 06, 2010, 03:29 PM
This discussion has my interest piqued - I thought I had tried every Fearless model that there was. I'll have to give your SUL a go on the hill sometime Jim.

Sounds like it is between the tat and light in overall required wind and pitchy attitude.
Tom,
I thought you had tried it....maybe it was Reggie :-\         It is so much like the light, it's really hard to differentiate them from one another, plus being mango and yellow.................. :-[


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: GWTWNewb on November 06, 2010, 07:29 PM
Legends of the Fearless

Fallacies of Fearless flying fools.


Title: Re: Fearless sul and Tattoo , are they different from each other ?
Post by: tempest on November 08, 2010, 05:54 PM


Fallacies of Fearless flying fools.
[/quote]


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