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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: Makalu1 on December 23, 2010, 04:43 PM



Title: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Makalu1 on December 23, 2010, 04:43 PM
Hi all, new to sport kites and new to this forum, but really liking both!

I'd like to know what people have to say in general about standard versions of kites versus the ultralite versions.  I've been looking at the differences in the gross weight of the kites relative to the other specs given in the sales info.  Near as I can tell, all or most of the specs given for the versions are the same (dimensions, sail material, etc.) except the material of the spars, so I assume the different spar material accounts for the weight difference.  I also notice the weight difference is usually no more than a couple of ounces.

If I've got that right, then I'm assuming the different spar material is what affects the wind range given for the kites (if all other specs are indeed the same), but mostly on the upper end of the wind scale.  As in, the range for the standard version will be given as 3-20mpg, the ultralite at 2-12 mph.  Am I on track here, or is the first syllable of "assume" coming into play here?

More specifically, I'm debating about buying a Skyburner Delta Drive or a Widow Maker.  The WM probably makes the most sense given that it is newer and (according to what I've read elsewhere on this forum) better at doing pitchy tricks.  But honestly, sometimes the intangibles like aesthetics trump reason, so I'm leaning towards an orange DD.  Comparing the two kites in both their standard and ultralite versions, I'm seeing the DD standard billed as 3-25mph, the UL as 1.5-12, weight difference as 10.75oz vs 8.5oz.  The WM standard is billed as 3 (or 4) to 20mph, the UL as 2-12mph, weight difference as 10oz vs 8oz.  Jees, who does someone comes up with figures like 1.5 mph anyway!

So back to the basic question, if I'm right and all else is equal, does 2 ounces of weight difference make that much difference in a kites ability to fly in the lower wind range?         


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: tpatter on December 23, 2010, 05:11 PM
It does make a big difference (along with the framing) - it can change the whole nature of the kite.  In general, you are best off with the standard if you have the min wind covered, especially for tricks, since it will likely pitch much more easily and faster.  The again, some UL versions of a specific kite are preferred over the standard even in the 3-8 category which is where many can overlap, so no hard and fast rules.

I've flown both the WM standard and ul and preferred the standard all around, even in low wind - its just more pitchy. The WM standard goes pretty low as it is.   I  can't recall having tried the delta drive.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Dave Gibson on December 23, 2010, 08:51 PM
Hello and welcome to the board ;D   I have and fly all  3  the delta is a nice precision kite and tricks. but i find it alittle more finicky,  the WM STD tricks great and flys realy nice!! same for the UL But the STD does respond a little faster!  were do you fly? and what type of wind do you have most of the time? if your wind is 0-4 mph most of the time, I would bye  the UL, you will get more fly time with less frustration. I live in michigan and the wind for the most part is 0-3 most of the time so my WM UL gets alot of use!! 4-12  the WM STD is GREAT you can fly the STD 2-3 but you are going to be working for it....   I LOVE THE WIDOW MAKERS  great kites Jon realy makes GREAT kite's.
you cant go rong with  A SKYBURNER KITE.

Hope this helps 


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Makalu1 on December 24, 2010, 12:26 AM
Thanks Dave and Tpatter.  Wow, I can see why folks own so many kites!- this hobby is gonna get expensive after a while!  Regarding the WM, must be a great kite because I've only seen one sort of bad (more like neutral) review of it by anyone so far, mostly raves. 

Do you happen to know what factors add up to a kite that pitches better?  I've read that the newer kites ("new style" flying?) tend to be better in that regard.   

I'm going to have to give some serious thought to aesthetics vs the practical, though you've both pretty much sold me on going with a UL.  Here in Salt Lake City vicinity the winds (outside of the seasonal spring winds) tend to be pretty weak, though I've only lived here for 2 years and have only been wind conscious since I took up kites last last August.  Maybe I'll see what I can learn looking up the weather records on weatherunderground before deciding.  But from what I've seen, 0 - 4 or 5 seems most common.

Thanks again, and I look forward to any other input, especially re the Delta Drive.  And Merry Christmas to all!


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: tempest on December 24, 2010, 04:30 AM


So back to the basic question, if I'm right and all else is equal, does 2 ounces of weight difference make that much difference in a kites ability to fly in the lower wind range?         
[/quote]

Welcome to the world of Stunt Kiting.
 2 ounces is a lot of weight, that can change the way a stunt kite flies.  Here we talk in terms of GRAMS ,as you will soon find out.
I have changed the lower spreaders of my kite from a 5pt to  3pt, removed the upper spreader and have been able to fly at a lower wind speed ,when before it would have been difficult to fly.
 
Smooth and gentle winds ,  and a MERRY CHRISTMAS to all .........


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: mikenchico on December 24, 2010, 07:55 AM
10 to 8 oz is a 20% difference which is huge when talking about wing loading, there are a few other changes in UL, the leading edge material is usually a lighter fabric. the nose may be made of lighter fabrics and some reinforcements may be reduced also.

I agree the looks of the Delta Drive trump the Widowmaker, it's been one of my favorite designs since seeing the first one and I like the kite a lot. But the Widowmakers see much more air time. Not because they are better kites just different, more capable of helping me in my quest to learn some of these pitch tricks, if I was just flying old school it would be the Delta Drive first out of the bag.

As stated above the standard Widowmaker will go pretty low, I pull the weight and upper spreader and fly it down to the range others are flying UL's with a bit of work.  I wasn't overly fond of the UL version of the Widowmaker when I tried Denny's out but I didn't spend much time on it and I'm not a finese flier and like those nice stiff Nitro's and haven't liked any light version of a kite I originally tried with Nitro's. I haven't tried my standard Delta Drive in real low winds so I can't say how it does.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: onlye on December 24, 2010, 12:59 PM
sometimes the intangibles like aesthetics trump reason, so I'm leaning towards an orange DD. who does someone comes up with figures like 1.5 mph anyway!

Aesthetics - been a great influence in my kite purchases over the years.  I have a DD UL that doesn't fly much but one of my favorite kites based on appearance.  Does fly pretty nice too.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: KaoS on December 24, 2010, 03:31 PM
Specifically with the Widowmaker...

The standard goes very low in the wind range compared to other "standards".  The UL goes even lower, but you lose the pitchability of the standard, so yo-yo/roll up manoeuvres are much harder on the UL.  Same thing happens with the Blue Moon Exile.

If roll ups are something you want to retain in a low wind kite, do your homework first.  Not many UL kites roll up anywhere near as easily as their standard counterparts.  If you don't do those sort of tricks, the ULs are significantly easier to fly in the lighter winds and well worth the investment


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Allen Carter on December 24, 2010, 10:13 PM
When looking at the wind ranges keep in mind that at the low end things change really quick. 4mph is twice the force on the kite as 2mph. Big difference. The same way 16 mph is twice the force of 8 mph.

The difference in 1 or 2 mph at the high end is nothing. at the low end it's huge.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: DonB on December 24, 2010, 11:54 PM
When looking at the wind ranges keep in mind that at the low end things change really quick. 4mph is twice the force on the kite as 2mph. Big difference. The same way 16 mph is twice the force of 8 mph.

The difference in 1 or 2 mph at the high end is nothing. at the low end it's huge.


I believe the force increases by the square of the wind velocity so at 2mph the force is 4 times the force at 1mph.  The force of a 4mph wind would be 16x that of 1mph.

The Wind Load Formula is

(http://www.reasonablepower.com/nice_to_know/windloadformula-002.bmp)

where
Fd is the force of drag (or in this case Force Against the flat plate),
p is the density of the air,
v is the speed of the air against the object,
A is the area of the object which the air is blowing against,
Cd is the drag coefficient,

Note that in the formula the speed factor 'v' is squared which results in the exponential increase of force.

From  http://www.reasonablepower.com/nice_to_know/an_introduction_to_wind_loads.htm (http://www.reasonablepower.com/nice_to_know/an_introduction_to_wind_loads.htm)

As you pointed out, at high speeds the difference in force isn't as dramatic for a 1mph change in speed.  For example the difference in force between 20mph and 21mph is only 10%.

FWIW,

db



Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: DWayne on December 25, 2010, 02:05 PM
Your formula is good for calculating the torque created by a flat rigid surface at a given wind speed. Not sure of its relevance in sport kites though.
@ Makalu1
Newer designs are using shapes that create more lift in the nose making it possible to reduce the amount of tail weight without losing any of the ability to rotate on the horizontal axis. The added nose lift and lessened tail weight also allow these kites to do much flatter rotations on the vertical axis than earlier polyvalent kites. These designs allow the UL versions to do all the same tricks their standard counterparts do only in less wind. IMO the glaring differences between Std's. & UL's are rapidly disappearing.

Denny



Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: DonB on December 25, 2010, 02:15 PM
Your formula is good for calculating the torque created by a flat rigid surface at a given wind speed. Not sure of its relevance in sport kites though.

The relevant part is that the force increases with the square of  wind speed,  this is the same for wind striking any surface.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Makalu1 on December 25, 2010, 04:19 PM
Thanks again, all of you.  I'm soaking this all up like a sponge and appreciate your time, effort, and willingness to share with a beginner.  It's not wasted on me!

Just got back from an hour with my 3-D and must say I hate the way those blasted standoffs poke out of the edge of the sail.  I'm sure in capable hands this isn't so much of a problem but it's sure a pain for a tangle-prone guy like me!  But I am getting much satisfaction and getting more air time in low winds after learning how to adjust the bridle and standoffs a bit.  I've also experimented with taking out the upper spreader.

Speaking of which, tempest, what are you referring to when you say you're changing the lower spreaders from a 5pt to a 3pt?  I'm not yet familiar with these terms.

Again, thanks much!
Scott


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: adx1592 on December 25, 2010, 10:08 PM
They're different strength spreaders (tubes).
Look at the skyshark website for more info.  :)
Both skyburner/shark are on the right of this page.

There are a lot of different spreaders. Weight, stiffness, etc all are labeled with different numbers.
They're labeled differently, usually the higher the # the stronger and heavier the rod is.

Look around some websites. It's certainly worth it!  :)


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Bob D on December 26, 2010, 06:16 AM
The Widow Maker hands out tricks faster than a lot of other kites. It's so easy that I'm afraid that I'll learn bad habits because it's so easy to fly. One thing I like about it is the pig tails you can adjust for your wind speeds. It REALLY does fly in lower wind than a lot of standards and you don't sacrifice anything in the upper range. (My Exile flies great in lower wind too but it's a lot harder to fly at a wind speed the WM is still comfortable with.)

My vote is for the WM.

(I've been flying my Nirvanas because  they're more demanding and I'm forced to learn good flying technique. I also really like the sail layout too.)


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Hadge on December 26, 2010, 06:37 AM
Thanks again, all of you.  I'm soaking this all up like a sponge and appreciate your time, effort, and willingness to share with a beginner.  It's not wasted on me!




If you go HERE (http://seek2know.org.uk/kites/PJKites/Kites%20notes.pdf) there is a really good kite book free to download. It should help you a lot with the various names and tricks you will read about here on the forum. ;)


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Makalu1 on December 27, 2010, 08:18 PM
Thanks for that last link.  Actually, I'd already downloaded that pub on advice from a previous post here.  Thanks everyone again for your input and advice.  I think my learning curve is steepening now, but there's so much more to this than I ever could have imagined!  Fun though, and satisfying when tips are applied and things come together.

By the way, after weighing everything over and over, finally decided on the Widow Maker Std (orange fade).  The Delta Drive will have to wait for another day.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: mikenchico on December 28, 2010, 12:07 AM
I don't think you'll be sorry with a Widowmaker, the orange fade is nice (I call it "Sunrise")

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2134/2112333310_199dd382fc.jpg)



Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: vertigo2u on December 31, 2010, 09:47 AM
The last video I posted really sort of demonstrates what everyone is saying.  I WAS flying an Ocius ul.  The wind died down to the point I could barely fly.  Devin was flying the Ocius sul which is lighter and he had No problem.
Really impressed by everyone's input.  Having just completed my Rookie Year and owning a Delta Drive,Widow Maker,Ocius,Ociusul and Pro Dancersul and little "Zoomer". Everyone's advice was solid.  My Delta Drive was Jon's.  He had it tweeked between a standard and ul. It is so nice to fly and smooth.
However, it doesn't get the air time it deserves.  the others have been able to teach me more,then I apply it to the DD.  The colors in the DD are beautiful on a sunny blue and silver cloud day.  Looking at Mike's WM one can imagine the sun in the background. It has to be beautiful.  That is the extra we rarely talk about when flying sport kites.  The Background.
Sun,water,trees,blue sky.  Make sure your kite fits the sky pattern you enjoy.

Kites cost money.  From a $20.00 Zoomer to a $300.00 Widow Maker.  You don't buy all your kites on the same day.  i didn't walk into Kites and Fun Things and say to Jon ..."...Hey. give me one of each...". lol.     
Buy something now when prices are lower.  then buy in spring.  Last year I bought a Jordan 50 single line kite.  It's 50sq. ft. of sail and has two 75 ft. tails.  Fly's on 250 lb. line.  It was around $400.  It was over my budget so I had saved an extra $150 and used that also to differ cost.  I save my change in a jar.  I get about $100 bucks every 3-4 months.  I call it my kite money.  I did not fly the Jordan 50 for almost 6 months.
Save and Buy.
This Kite hobby is cheap compared to other hobbies.  You only buy once.  you don't have o buy new ski's each year.  You don't have to get the newest golf club to play.  No green fees.  No lift cost.  No gas to buy for the boat. 
The wind is free.  Spend the money on Good Equipment.  Don't buy anything not made in USA. 
What ever sport you have been involved with did you always buy inferior equipment.  Buy the Best.  The guys who support these sites deserve our patronage.  The fact is they are a little more money, the quality is next to none.  Each major kite builder in the USA produces a quality product.
You can not go wrong.  Each builder will personally talk with buyers regarding their product.  Call any of the kite stores for great advise.
You can call Jon Trennepohl any day of the week and he will speak to you regarding kites.  What's the number of that over-seas store that sells a knock off cheaper.
Call Kenny and ask him about his kites he won't give you the run around.
Is any of this worth a few dollars more?  Of corse it is.  Plan on spending a few dollars each year on your squadron of kites.  I just ordered the new Ocius sul.  Do I need it ?  No.  Do I want it? yes.  Wants ,needs and desires control our emotional senses. 
Kiting is fun and being able to do  it in any range of wind speed, only enhances the amount of time and days you can fly.  Look to buy used...


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: tpatter on December 31, 2010, 10:51 AM
Amen, brother!!   :)

The amount of $ spent on kites the last few years had been many times recouped in enjoyment, relaxation, new friends, and sheer fun.


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: Makalu1 on December 31, 2010, 04:25 PM
Thanks for those words, Virtigo2u.  I totally get it.  My house if full of high quality mountaineering gear and the best longbows I can afford- which means the best money can buy.  I'd have to say that starting in kite world has been a bit different from those sports, probably because lives (human and animal) aren't at stake.  My story is probably like many.  I saw my first sport kite last August by chance on a visit to the Oregon coast- never seen one before!  The next day stopped in Newport and got a Skydog Thunderstruck for $45 and my jaw dropped when I saw the $300+ kites hanging on the ceiling, I couldn't believe anyone would pay that much for a kite!!!  Getting home to Salt Lake I soon realized the Thunderstruck was too heavy for the average breeze here and I needed a light kite or I'd never get enough air time to learn anything.  So I got a 3-D.  But until I learned a thing or two about bridle settings and the importance of changing lines for different winds, that didn't get me far, either (and frankly I'm still pretty disappointed in it- they should have put more R&D into those chinsy standoffs, among other things).  So then I looked for something better and 2 seconds from buying a Quantum got talked into an Acrobatx (another $100).  Still not satisfied and Finally realizing that although these kites are good, there's a reason people pay $300 for a kite.  I'm giddy now waiting for my Widow Maker to come, better than Christmas!  I'm sure the DD is still in my future.

I still wish I'd had more human contact in this process and thank heaven for this forum since it's pretty much as close as I've got so far to nitty gritty advice.  The literature out there is helpful but I just know that a lot of you guys would be able to look at my kites, feel the wind and know how to make them fly better.  I'm far from that and know I've got a lot of crashing and burning to do before I get there, but I will get there too.  And enjoy the process!  I don't regret a dollar or minute spent on kites and can't believe I only heard of a sport kite for the first time just 4 months ago!

Thanks again for all the help and support. 


Title: Re: Skyburner Std vs. UL- that much difference?
Post by: vertigo2u on December 31, 2010, 08:36 PM
Next week call Jon Trennepohl and talk to him.  He has some good videos, but is always willing to share info.  He ties all the knots in the briddles by hand.  He knows exactly how to make a few changes to fly in soft or stronger winds.  The top of briddle is adjustable. Letting in more  or releasing more wind by the different angle the kite takes when the briddle is adjusted.  One or two knot changes makes a huge difference in flying.
Also ask Devin if he has any used kits for sale.  This forum is great for sharing world and nation wide.  I enjoy being able to put nice videos together with great music.  Enjoy !  Also Happy New Years everyone....  just got back from Motor City Casino.... up $136.00. guess were it's going... Yep... help pay for Ocius sul.