GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: 50flyer on April 19, 2009, 06:25 AM



Title: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: 50flyer on April 19, 2009, 06:25 AM
Can someone compair the two kites?
I can't decide which to purchase.
Thanks,
Bob M.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 19, 2009, 06:45 AM
My two favorite kites. The Deep Space is a bit smaller and a little faster. It seems to me to be a bit less tolerant of bumpy wind than the Talon. I think the Talon does nicer flat spin stuff. To me the Talon seems a bit more relaxed and the DS a bit more edgy. They're both great kites for sure but if I could only have one it would be the Talon.

Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: kiteslinger on April 19, 2009, 08:41 AM
 Yup! the deep space needs more aggressive/faster inputs for combos even more so in higher winds...

the talon ...... NICE!!!! sold my deep space

the vented is next on my list



Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: zippy8 on April 19, 2009, 09:30 AM
I can't decide which to purchase.

Lemme help you out here.

(http://plainview.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/coin-flip1.jpg)

Seriously... you can't really finesse this choice. Pick the pretty one, buy it then go fly it.

Mike.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Will Sturdy on April 19, 2009, 09:39 AM
Buy Both  ;)


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Francois on April 19, 2009, 09:50 AM
Yup! the deep space needs more aggressive/faster inputs for combos even more so in higher winds...

the talon ...... NICE!!!! sold my deep space

the vented is next on my list



Just came back from flying my vented. THIS A SUPER KITE!!!!Best vented i had tried. Super smooth flying with no pull still VERY tricky in around 18-22mph :P


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: 50flyer on April 19, 2009, 12:57 PM
I'll see if I can find a used Talon.
If not I will order one before the currency rate goes up.

Thanks for the rreplys
Bob M.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 19, 2009, 01:13 PM
I'll see if I can find a used Talon.

Good luck there.


Quote from: 50flyer=topic=528.msg3606#msg3606 date=1240171073
If not I will order one before the currency rate goes up.

Thanks for the rreplys
Bob M.

The color of your choice for under $300 delivered. Can't beat that with a stick.  :D

Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: 50flyer on April 20, 2009, 02:48 AM
I was going to place order this morning, but the colorizer has to many choices. :P
My wife is also having a time deciding which color patterens to go with. ???

Bob M.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: WinterDaze on April 20, 2009, 04:04 AM
3 days seems to be the average there  ;) Now bringing in outside advice could add an extra 2-6 days......

Good luck!


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 20, 2009, 06:13 AM
You can get some inspiration from the "media" tab on Mark's site. Lots of nice looking Talons there.  ;)


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: bryan beasley on April 20, 2009, 09:40 AM
Ignore everything that's not black, white or a shade in between. Acccent with 1 colour of choice (red being that choice - obviously) and you'll be down to just a couple of days tinkering.

Bryan


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: JimB on April 20, 2009, 09:59 AM
I've had Two colorizer screen shots for a Talon UL sitting on my desk top for months now. Just can't seem to pull the trigger just yet.

I liked the Talon std that a forum member was kind enough to let me have a go on, just not quite as much as the DS.

The Talon UL was a different story, again, Thank You to the same forum member.

The UL is one of those kites that comes along once in a while: A true masterpiece.

I will have one. Oh Yes I Will.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on April 21, 2009, 06:40 AM
(http://www.markholterman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/1186176906.jpg)
Two Standards
(http://www.markholterman.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/1224519111.jpg)
One UL


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 21, 2009, 11:17 AM
Nice Talons.  ;)


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: portley777 on April 22, 2009, 01:53 AM
  I have an UL and Vented but not a STD as of yet (go figure). They are certainly at the top of their class compared to other ULs and VTDs. I kind of thought my DS would cover the STD range but they are very different kites. I love my DS but it needs a smooth breeze (as does the Talon VTD incidently).

Cheers,
Mike


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Francois on April 22, 2009, 03:50 PM
(http://inlinethumb17.webshots.com/32912/2679857480059180139S425x425Q85.jpg)


UL and STD. Another STD on the way (A RED one)....

(http://inlinethumb60.webshots.com/40955/2084713920059180139S425x425Q85.jpg)

The vented one!

And finaly my Std that I sold:

(http://inlinethumb03.webshots.com/18498/2319883370059180139S425x425Q85.jpg)

Nices kites!


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: kiteslinger on April 22, 2009, 05:24 PM
franks
 std. talon looks better here in Ca. anyway :D

(http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/44373/2169406580072413283S500x500Q85.jpg)
I would order a vented but a new pair of work boot are  at the top of the list


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: 50flyer on April 22, 2009, 05:53 PM
Nice looking kites.
I'll have Talon in a few weeks.
Bob M.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: mikenchico on April 23, 2009, 12:14 PM
franks
 std. talon looks better here in Ca. anyway :D

([url]http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/44373/2169406580072413283S500x500Q85.jpg[/url])
I would order a vented but a new pair of work boot are  at the top of the list


Bob said it "And don't the sun look good goin' down over the sea" or a kite for that matter  :)



Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DaveH on April 27, 2009, 07:53 PM
This is tough.  I was all set to order my DS and now all these great pictures of Talons are everywhere.  And then, there's the fact that my inland winds are often a bit rough.  Decent, to be sure, but not terribly smooth.  And the Talon is supposed to handle these winds better than the DS.  *sigh*  AND.....  my winds tend to be in the 8 to 12 range.  The Talon std is said to be great at the upper ranges of std weight kites.  I gotta admit, the Talon looks way better than the DS.  and you get to pick the colors.  I think I may be weakening...


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: 50flyer on April 28, 2009, 02:36 AM
Dave order both so you won't have any doubts that you picked the right kite.

Bob M.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: JimB on April 28, 2009, 09:24 AM
Just to add my dissenting opinion..

I've flown both the DS and Talon std in very rough winds, in fact, on the same day .

I thought the DS was better under those conditions.

Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DaveH on April 28, 2009, 09:37 AM
Good to know.  I just sent Tim an E mail...


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 28, 2009, 10:04 AM

Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.

Maybe you could explain how, exactly, changing the lower leading edge from Nitro to 5Pt would effect the overall balance & flight of this particular kite?
What exactly would it improve?


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: mikenchico on April 28, 2009, 12:56 PM
You can't change just the lower leading edge since Nitro's have a larger diameter then 5PT's. But changing both the upper and lower rods won't change the kites balance much since both rods are 15 grams. You'll also have to replace the APA connectors since they won't fit tightly on the 5PT's. I don't know how the Talon rods are cut, Nitro's can be trimmed on either end, 5PT's only on the small end so you may change the distribution of flex and the weight distribution to a small extent over the length.

Anybody doing this can send me those old Nitro's and fittings, I've loved them in every application I've flown them and have not liked the same kite as much when framed in P200's (same weight) or 3PT's (as UL's). Can't say on the Talon though having not flown either version yet.





Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 28, 2009, 01:00 PM
You can't change just the lower leading edge since Nitro's have a larger diameter then 5PT's. But changing both the upper and lower rods won't change the kites balance much since both rods are 15 grams. You'll also have to replace the APA connectors since they won't fit tightly on the 5PT's. I don't know how the Talon rods are cut, Nitro's can be trimmed on either end, 5PT's only on the small end so you may change the distribution of flex and the weight distribution to a small extent over the length.

Anybody doing this can send me those old Nitro's and fittings, I've loved them in every application I've flown them and have not liked the same kite as much when framed in P200's (same weight) or 3PT's (as UL's). Can't say on the Talon though having not flown either version yet.





On the Talon the upper leading edge is P200. The lower leading edge is BD Nitro.  ;)


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: mikenchico on April 28, 2009, 02:14 PM
Really, he's building a special ferrule? (sorry Zippy if I got that wrong) If I recall a standard Skyshark Ferrule with a section of P100 fits inside the Nitro so I guess that's not too hard to do.

Being the rods are the same weight, in fact that P200 upper is very close to the 15 grams of the Nitro & 5PT at 14.5 grams then the builder obviously felt the added stiffness in the lower leading edge warranted the extra expense.

The kite may get wingtip shudder in higher winds like the Mantis/Muse design then, that's why Ken worked with Jon to develop the Nitro's. I assume the sail loading with higher aspect ratio's and a higher spreader position to allow them to sit deeper on thier back were resulting in the need for more stiffness. Or maybe it's just the deeper sails and narrower stand-off positions causing a change in the angle of atack and more drag, wish I had the time and money to build 1000 designs to understand the aerodynamics.

I'm guessing the UL's use a P100 upper with 3PT lowers and 3PT Spreaders then?



Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 28, 2009, 02:31 PM
You're right. No special ferrule needed. Just sleeve the Nitro rod with P100 and use a standard Skyshark ferrule.  ;)
I've had mine out in 15 to 20 mph winds and didn't get any tip shudder. I did get the urge to buy a vented Talon though.  :D
 The UL uses P90 upper leading edge. 3Pt lower leading edge and lower spreader.

Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: JimB on April 28, 2009, 09:18 PM
It's personal preference for the most part. Flying a high aspect kite with super stiff LEs feels like flying a 2X4 to me. They have, in my experience, a tendency to oversteer, especially in choppy conditions, which I don't mind in general, but with technical kites of this nature; I tend to prefer for them to fly within themselves.

Additionally, again in my experience, something a bit less stiff in the LE than the Nitro is less likely to break when coming into contact with the ground, either by misadventure or on purpose, depending on the kite.

The Talon standard is an exceptional kite. I'd just prefer if it wasn't quite as stiff as it is in the LEs.

This is the main reason I personally prefer the Talon UL. It is a more balanced kite than the standard IMO, mostly due to the more flexible, sticks in the LE.

YMMV


Personally, I find the Talon std to be over-framed in the LEs. I'd like it better if 5pt or some such were to be used there. The Nitros are overkill.

JMO.

Maybe you could explain how, exactly, changing the lower leading edge from Nitro to 5Pt would effect the overall balance & flight of this particular kite?
What exactly would it improve?


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on April 29, 2009, 07:21 AM
I don't find the Talon Standard to be over framed in any way - in fact, I much prefer it's very stiff frame and find it is easier to fly (trick) in higher winds than the DS (I'm not the only one either). The DS does have a lower wind range though.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Francois on April 29, 2009, 07:41 AM
I don't find the Talon Standard to be over framed in any way - in fact, I much prefer it's very stiff frame and find it is easier to fly (trick) in higher winds than the DS (I'm not the only one either). The DS does have a lower wind range though.

Exactly


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: benjai on April 29, 2009, 12:46 PM
So, as someone in a similar position of flying a DS, and loving it, but finding it unmanageable in higher winds and therefore looking at a Talon vent, the summary is:

DS is really good and goes into low wind (for a standard)
The Talon standard is better at a slightly higher wind range than the DS
The Talon UL is better in lower wind than both the DS and T std
The Talon vent is the best of the lot in very high wind...

in other words, you really need all four! Anyone want to hazard a guess what the USP of the DS UL will be when it comes out?


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DWayne on April 29, 2009, 01:28 PM
Personally, I like them just the way they are.  8)


Denny


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on April 30, 2009, 01:50 AM
So, as someone in a similar position of flying a DS, and loving it, but finding it unmanageable in higher winds and therefore looking at a Talon vent, the summary is:

DS is really good and goes into low wind (for a standard)
The Talon standard is better at a slightly higher wind range than the DS
The Talon UL is better in lower wind than both the DS and T std
The Talon vent is the best of the lot in very high wind...

in other words, you really need all four! Anyone want to hazard a guess what the USP of the DS UL will be when it comes out?


Well yes........and no (IMHO). The DS is good and does go really low - it seems to have a particularly efficient sale design. As you say, it doesnít work as well in stronger winds than the Talon standard and I (and others) have also found the standard to be a bit better in gusty conditions (though these are very difficult conditions to fly in regardless). In truth, although relatively similar, the Talon and the DS are different in absolute feel but not really sufficiently so to warrant using both (not for me at any rate and I often fly a friends DS). If I owned a DS I wouldn't probably need the Talon standard and possibly not the UL - similarly if I owned a Standard and UL (which I do), I wouldn't buy a DS. I have flown all three of the Talon models and have found they have a particularly wide crossover in wind range - you can fly the UL well into standard strength wind - the standard into vented and the vented flyís in surprisingly little wind (I've managed to get tricks out of one in almost UL conditions). The crossover is so extensive (much more so than the Akuji's I own(ed) that another standard/UL seems rather superfluous (unless it requires a quite different style of flying).

In the past I've read comment on this forum saying that how stiffly a kite is framed makes no difference - well it does; in fact, it makes a really big difference. The DS has a stiff frame but the Talon has an even stiffer one and you can feel this difference when you fly it. I flew my standard for the first time for ages the other day (I have flown the UL a lot recently) and at first I was struck by how 'heavy' it felt (in terms of input feel, not quantity or the amount of lift produced) and then I started to enjoy the added momentum until I ended up having one of the best flying sessions I've ever had. Although the Talon UL is remarkable in terms of balance and has a sort of 'wow there's hardly any wind and yet this kite is really tricky and I can do all my standard wind tricks' quality, I think the Standard is still my favourite. It's certainly not a floaty design though (nor is the DS really) and is very much a wrist flicky, straight from one trick to the other, dictate the moves to it, kind of kite.

If I could only have one kite it may well be the DS - quite a similar feel to the Talon (a bit more leg work required) but a truly remarkably wide wind range (particularly at the lower end). However, if you want it to wrap up a little quicker and can afford two kites, I prefer the Talon Standard and UL (I would buy the vented today if I had the money). The Talonís and the DS are not enormously different in feel to each other, certainly many other kites I have flown are much greater in terms of flying differences.

Don't hold your breath for the DS UL - Tim's not exactly rushed it into production. In fact, I honestly thought we would never see one (and I'm not really sure, even now, one is needed) but there has been talk on the 'the other place' regarding imminent production so it looks likely one will be made (eventually).

If you already own a DS I would recommend the Talon vented to you without hesitation - definitely copes better in significantly higher winds - much less pull than the DS in higher winds and a surprisingly similar overall feel.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DaveH on April 30, 2009, 10:26 AM
Very nice post, Mark.  Puts a lot into perspective.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: benjai on April 30, 2009, 01:47 PM
Mark,

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post all that - it's really useful...

I have to say that you've confirmed what I thought, even though I've never flown a Talon. I'm pretty sure that a DS & T(v) would be a good two kite bag, as I already have the DS. Maybe if you are starting from nothing a T(ul) & T(v) would be pretty good... It's not that I need another kite, and as you say, it's rare that there isn't enough wind to fly the DS with it's good low end (it's good practice to keep a STD flying in UL wind), but there are some times when the DS just gets too fast for tricking - after a while, having to run to cascade gets tiresome. BTW - I've seen at least two (maybe three - I forget) vented DS's. Were these protos or DIY jobs? Anyone Know?

Anyhow, with all that in mind... I'm off to spend the next two weeks(conservative estimate) agonising over that damned colouriser!!!

Thanks again.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on April 30, 2009, 01:48 PM
Cheers....bit long winded though...sorry bout that  ::)


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Adicakes on April 30, 2009, 05:33 PM
BTW - I've seen at least two (maybe three - I forget) vented DS's. Were these protos or DIY jobs?

DIY.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on May 01, 2009, 12:28 AM
Yeah, as said below, these were all DIY jobs. I've not heard any rumours of an official vented appearing - it may happen one day but certainly not any time in the near future.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: obijuankenobe on May 01, 2009, 01:23 AM
This is a really lively discussion. 

Stiff kites are great.  More of your input (after straightening the lines), goes directly to moving the kite.  It usually has a secondary effect of moving weight out to the wings, making the kite behave often much better and more balanced.  I find these are the primary trade-off made when flying ULs/SULs.  The only time stiffness would be a drawback is if that meant more breakage as well.  With 7PT...this is not an issue.

I have an SD light and an SD 8-vent.  I find these to be all in need.  Well before the light is overpowered, the vented flies WELL.  Could you say maybe this with the Talon range as well?  Mark seems to think there is a great deal of overlap in wind ranges.  I ask because flying the vented SD is great in lower winds (around 7-10mph) because it's so stiff and heavy, but it still flies well.  The key is that in these conditions, you get gusts...and the vents love these.  You can really give it all you can, and it just laughs and spins...only the lines cry from the hard inputs.  I have a sneaky suspicion I'd like the vented Talon for exactly the same reasons (and winds).

obi



Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on May 01, 2009, 02:55 AM
I've flown the Talon (UL) and (S) a lot, the DS too - but I've only flown the Talon (V) a couple of times. Certainly, the first time I flew the vented the winds were really UL (which is what I had just been flying) and the vented could fly and trick most of the time (with care). I think the wind range of the Talon (UL) and (V) probably do cross over (certainly the UL goes well into standard strength wind range) - I will still have a standard as well though. Flying the vented in low winds is a bit strange (in a cool way) cos most of the time it feels a bit like an UL but with the inertia of a Standard - it doesn't feel that heavy at all, then when you make a mistake it suddenly feels really heavy and just falls out of the sky.

One of the reasons I sold my Akuji vented was because it didn't really like gusty conditions - perhaps due to the very extended wing tips (which do look cool) - it pulled too much too.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DaveH on May 01, 2009, 06:14 AM
another thing about stiff kites is they dampen quicker.  Less flexing and moving about after an input.  The solid feel of a stiff frame is really something I like. I've found also that flying vents in lighter winds is suprisingly doable.  Unless, as stated above, you make a mistake..   And also one of the main benifits of a vented kites should be the ability to smooth out gusts.  I tend to fly mine toward the upper std range just to make things easier. 


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: lylenc on May 01, 2009, 07:43 AM
Hijack alert:

"another thing about stiff kites is they dampen quicker.  Less flexing and moving about after an input.  The solid feel of a stiff frame is really something I like. "

The same can be said about Rev SLE versus 3-wrap

Unhijack.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: DaveH on May 01, 2009, 08:00 AM
Craig,
nicely managed ;)
One thing i have discovered through these Talon/DS threads is that I probably should look at getting a different V. I really want to try the Talon vented. Seems like it might be the best one going at the moment.  And I think somebody said this already, a very resonable two kite bag would be the DS and Talon vented.


Title: Re: Deep Space vs Talon
Post by: Mark E Mark on May 01, 2009, 09:40 AM
A big off topic, sorry (not strictly about the DS and the Talon) but; I've tried a few vented kites and owned an Akuji vented (supposed to be one of the best). However, I've never really liked them and have found myself very reluctant to get the vented out of the bag preferring to just work harder with a Standard. The Talon Vented I tried felt much less like a normal vented kite and felt much more like a non-vented in pitch manoeuvres - I haven't flown one in strong winds yet though.