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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Photos and Videos => Topic started by: vertigo2u on July 03, 2011, 06:48 AM



Title: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: vertigo2u on July 03, 2011, 06:48 AM
I spent a number of hours working it.  It was hot as hell yesterday.  When we got to the ball game it was 97 degree's.  Then we got rained out.  :'(


Total (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg2pBYAZPpg#ws)


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: in.divi.dual on July 03, 2011, 06:55 AM

A shocking waste of bandwidth, think of the carbon footprint, think of the poor polar bears.

(http://www.tropical-rainforest-animals.com/image-files/polarbear.jpg)



Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: thief on July 03, 2011, 08:56 AM
personally for a 540 i would put the WM away and pull out that Pro Dancer SUL you have......old skool kites do it better....more floaty....more time......


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Bob D on July 03, 2011, 09:37 AM
Nice!

It was nice to watch in the comfort of being inside on a cool, rainy day. I know what it's like being outside in the heat and sweating bullets when you're flying. I can't do it for very long. I liked the narration  because you made it feel like we're there with you. I can appreciate the work you're doing as you're working on the 540s. I can do them on the right side of the window with my Deep Space and they look okay. I can't do it on the left side because I haven't figured out the inputs yet. Yesterday I got some 540s with my Nirvana LW (ul) and they weren't clean at all. It takes a lot of practice but I don't care because I like the satisfaction I get when I get a nice,  clean trick.


Title: Re: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: obijuankenobe on July 03, 2011, 09:38 AM
Ok to the flier in the video:

Move forward to give slack, not to dive. If you are moving forward when you initiate the flare, your forward movement essentially cancels some of you arm movement.

Instead try walking backwards right until you go for the flare, when you then step aggressively forward and give the unbalanced slack to get that flare. Notice that if you keep walking now...that kite will stay flared. You can't do that now because you never get a completely stalled flare, which is also why it doesn't spin.

Hope this helps.

obi

...vdHTCvJJC


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: mikenchico on July 03, 2011, 10:16 AM
A shocking waste of bandwidth, think of the carbon footprint, think of the poor polar bears.

(I know i'm crawling right into the trolls lair, but i've held my tongue too long and maybe if we blow this out Steve will install the ignore member feature)

And Vert pay no attention to the ( | ) above, this is a FORUM -definition: A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged - I for one enjoy the interchange of idea's, it makes you think. Your asking for help and posting video's forces other members to stop and think, to define what they are doing. Any good manager knows the BEST training method for a newer employee is to put them in charge of training the next employee, it forces them to think and you end up with a tenfold improved associate. You might be searching for help for yourself but by doing so you are probably improving every flyer who takes the time to watch your vid's and give a little thought to what they're seeing. Good on you.

Some people just don't get it and are poorly lacking in upbringing. Their direction in life is to discourage and disparage others, somehow they feel by attempting to drag others down to the level of their sorry existance it makes them a bigger person.

Sorry Steve  :(


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: kitegirl on July 03, 2011, 10:41 AM
I really enjoy watching your video's. Keep on posting for those of us that can't do tricks it is great to see you progress in skill level. Giving the rest of us hope that someday we will also be able to do the same.

As far as the comment from in.divi.dual ignore him. I don't read the forum as much anymore as seems every time I do he is on blasting someone. He was never taught that if you can't say anything nice don't say anything at all. Shame on you Fraz I mean in.divi.dual please remember as Mikenchico said about the definition of a forum and please use some manners. thank you

Again keep those videos coming!!


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: tpatter on July 03, 2011, 11:57 AM
I agree with obi - you almost have this in the bag.

You want to build sail pressure on the way down and then immediately release it on the uneven flare while taking a step forward as you push your arms forward, pulling for the spin when the kite is node away as you are doing, and then taking another step forward for the rotation all in one fluid motion (depending on kite, wind, and trick speed).

I think if you try to build sail pressure on the way down, and keep most of what you are currently doing, you will find the trick much much easier.

Tom


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Allen Carter on July 03, 2011, 12:04 PM

A shocking waste of bandwidth,


I disagree. This is a MUCH better use of bandwidth that many of the videos we see all the time with experienced pilots doing the same tricks over and over.

It is really helpful for folks learning how to fly to watch others in the learning process. For the individual flying in the video, it's like being at the field with a bunch of folks watching and giving advice. Priceless.

in.divi.dual, I don't know who you are, but it's your posts that are a waste of bandwidth. If you have a strong opinion about something, man up and get out from behind your screen name. Or is this such a scary place to disagree about stuff? Give me a break.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Allen Carter on July 03, 2011, 12:08 PM
Back on topic,

Avoid the high wind for learning 540s. While they are an excellent edge of the window trick in strong wind, the sideways motion of the kite is an added variable.

I still miss 540s more than any other trick I'm "good" at. I can do real nice ones, but I'm still at about 85%.

I do them with the same hand either side of the window. I don't know if that's harder, it's just how I learned.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: John Welden on July 03, 2011, 12:25 PM
I agree with thief, pull out the pro dancer or maybe the Mamba if the winds are higher.

That flying field is absolutely ideal for kite flying.  (other than it being 97 degrees out)

Looks like you pretty much have the 540 figured out.  Bonus points for doing them in that heat...

If I were you I'd practice flares, flick flacks, axels and down wind glides.

I'd avoid running or quickly walking down wind before the 540 because it makes it more difficult to stay in control.  How much speed are you really bleeding off anyway?  It's possible to flare in high winds if you swing your arms from behind to in front of you and take a big step. The key is to do it as quickly as possible. Like tiger woods golf club swing quick.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Hadge on July 03, 2011, 12:46 PM
The 540 is a trick that I have only recently mastered myself, it's harder than it looks to get the inputs and timings just right. Having watched your video ( and I am no way any sort of expert!) it looks as though you need to give some more slack to the initial fade to get to nose up.  If you watch, on the times you get it nearly right the nose has gone well up beyond the horizontal.  When your flare is 'flatter' it goes wrong. Try moving in towards the kite more on the flare also watch the pop for the rotation isn't 'too' hard.  I found Randy G's tutorial very helpful when I was learning.  Keep it up! you are so very nearly there and when you get it right the 540 is one of the nicest looking tricks out there.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: roisinroisin21 on July 03, 2011, 02:16 PM
It is really helpful for folks learning how to fly to watch others in the learning process. For the individual flying in the video, it's like being at the field with a bunch of folks watching and giving advice. Priceless



+1




Simon


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: adx1592 on July 03, 2011, 02:40 PM
Hey Joe. Looking good.  :D

For those who commented, Joe was doing some SLICK 540s on his Black Mamba on wednesday, and did a few on my PDSUL right before the sun went down. Gets better and better every time.

Keep truckin' joe, the judges (whoever they'll be) at KoBC are going to be super impressed with all the progress you've been making sence Kzoo. No doubt about it  :)


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Ace on July 03, 2011, 03:46 PM
Yo Emmett! I was looking for the Flying Delorean and the Flux capacitor at one stage ;)

Seriously, all jokes aside that's some great progress and good dedication.......


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Kantaxel on July 03, 2011, 03:55 PM
Coming from someone who feels that one cannot totally master any trick, (me) I have to agree with Tom's analysis completely.................I wouldn't even attempt a 540 in that kind of wind with a modern kite..............way too much room for error especially at the sides of the window.................Something old skewl would be easier IMO.........Keep it up.............and keep on with the vids...PLEASE........It's great to see your progress.......very inspirational.

Thanks,
Jim


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: obijuankenobe on July 04, 2011, 03:30 AM
I just want to be sure my point was clear.

Watching the video, you appear to be walking forward with your arms at your side.  Walking forward here is reducing the pressure in the sail, which is unnecessary.

In fact, it is the change in pressure from flying to slack that provide the conditions necessary for the kite to flare out and stall (1st part of the 540).  If you walk forward at 3' per second while flying down, and then give slack with your arms at 10' per second (for that brief reaching move), the kite only feels 7' per second of that slack.  Do you get what I mean?  Conversely, if you stand still or walk backward, and then combine an aggressive two steps forward with your arm movement, the kite will feel a full 13' per second slack...stall and hang waiting for you to initiate the spin. 

This combination of slack with arms and feet is also what allows you to only give slack with one hand and still get a flare.  The slack on the other side is provided mostly by the feet, so you can keep your arm at your side, get an uneven flare, and tug on that tight line to spin the kite.

I sure hope this helps.  You really are so close. 

obi


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: obijuankenobe on July 04, 2011, 04:14 AM
And another thing I noticed.  You stop walking forward when you initiate the spin.  Wrong.  You have to continue forward at least through the first 360 degrees.  If you don't, the wind will blow the kite backward, taking up slack, and causing the kite to return to flying position before rotating.  By continuing forward, you will maintain the state of slack long enough to get a full rotation. 

It is very similar to how you must walk forward during backspins and backspin cascades. 

obi


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Kantaxel on July 04, 2011, 04:29 AM

It is very similar to how you must walk forward during backspins and backspin cascades. 

obi

And multilazies, axels, and not to the same degree flic-flacs..............(depending on the wind, of course)


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Bob D on July 04, 2011, 04:33 AM
This is a great thread! I've gotten some nice 540s with my DS and Exile but the Nirvana is still tough. Thanks to everyone for their insight because it's helping me figure out what makes good technique.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: RobB on July 04, 2011, 05:12 AM
The first response is exactly why I posted my 'What am I doing wrong' videos on Classykite. All the members over there are classy enough to keep quiet when they don't have something constructive to say...

Vert, one thing that helped me was to get the kite to go into the move on a diagonal, instead of straight down. It may not be right technically, for the 'judges', but it might help to get set up for the 'tug' or the 'pop' right after the flare.

I'm with the rest of the posters, keep up the videos, it's the fastest way to learn when you fly alone.

~Rob.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: Jimmer on July 04, 2011, 08:03 AM
Hummmmmm...let me see if I got this right??

1.  He's passionate about things he does, i.e. his kite flying
2.  He's smart and knows to seek the best people to ask how to do it right, i.e. GWTW forum
3.  He wants to share his learning experience with others trying to learn, i.e. his videos
4.  He loves animals...dogs, polar bears, etc, i.e. ask Rufus
 
 ;D
Keep the vids coming Joe


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: vertigo2u on July 04, 2011, 03:11 PM
This has been a world of great info... Like a live "Google Search" for information and help.  Over 400 hits and still counting.  I have to learn a "Cascade"... This is surley not about me but everyone who post.  Truely positive stuff.  John Weldon, Obijuan, Really spell it out.  Your so right.  Why waste the wind power.  I am duplicating and taking away.  Charging forward is only making me tired. :D .  But I am getting no were with it.  High winds are OUT for practice.  This whole "link" is a ton of good advise from people who know and try... I truley appreciate all the help posted.  I keep re-reading everything that has been posted.  Between Obi and JWeldon they hit the nail on the head.   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Now it'
s off to Metro Beach ( which is a 20 minute drive...) :P


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: John Welden on July 04, 2011, 10:38 PM
I keep re-reading everything that has been posted.  Between Obi and JWeldon they hit the nail on the head.   8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8) 8)

Now it'
s off to Metro Beach ( which is a 20 minute drive...) :P

SWEET, my kite knowledge helped someone!  8) 8)  It's so funny to have relatively obscure knowledge and have it actually help someone.

With our help or not, I'm sure you'd figure it out own your own. The fact that you're out there busting your ass in 97 degree heat tells me you're the type of guy who has the dedication to figure out all these tricks.  I do have a theory that people can get too much help in the beginning and then get good too quickly. They end up getting board.  I doubt you'd be out there trying 540's if you were into activities that were really easy.  I've seen a lot of guys quit after getting "good' in a short time period.  It must have taken me a couple years to learn the 540, but I'm still doing them today and still love the trick.

Don't let me discourage you from getting help, I'm just sharing something I've seen happen.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: inewham on July 07, 2011, 12:31 AM
In fact, it is the change in pressure from flying to slack that provide the conditions necessary for the kite to flare out ...
This combination of slack with arms and feet is also what allows you to only give slack with one hand and still get a flare.

Something that I've found helps when trying to teach 540s is foot positioning to maximise the instant slack when you flare:

If you're going to initiate the 540 with your right hand, as you dive down pull back with your arms to power the kite up and as you do get into a position where your left foot is a stride in front of your right. Then as you throw your hands forward to flare the kite, at the same time step 1 stride forward onto your right foot.
The result is that your kite gets an arms length + a stride of slack so you can transition from powered dive to completely slack flare very quickly.

Its the speed of that transition that gives you the rotation; you shouldn't need to po your right hand a quick brief stop is enough. The flaring kite hits the stopped line and starts to rotate. THen give it *lots* of slack. Doing 180s to landings is a good way to get a feel for that.


Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: randyg on July 09, 2011, 03:29 PM
Took a look at the video and have a comment or two.

First, relax. By that I mean relax and smooth out the inputs. Work to make them flow and attempt to reduce the jerkiness. This will take time but better to work on it now.

As for the 540, you appear to be missing what I've called the "uneven Flare" which is actually a Flare pointed slightly to the right or left. If you get the nose of the kite pointing in the direction of the 540 rotation before you provide the actual input for that rotation, you're ahead of the game. The kite will more readily perform the rotation when you do give the input. If you want, breakdown the trick and just do the uneven Flare over and over until you think you have it. Then throw in the input for the rotation.

Finally, and this is from one videographer to another, stated as constructively as possible. Step away from the fancy transition package that came with your editing program. :o)

Back to the 540, you're close so keep up the work and you'll have it. Don't forget to work on doing it both handed. ;-)



Title: Re: Took everyone advise on 540's
Post by: vertigo2u on July 10, 2011, 07:19 AM
Thanks Randy I have been watching your Video and trying.  I do get tense before I try.. Need to relax.  I will pratice as you suggested.  I appreciate Your input.  Thanks again.  I flew last night with the Widow Maker ul and it was better.  The Widow Maker I was flying in  the first video was set up wrong.  I broke the left leading edge and fixed it an inch to long on one side.  Flew it last night still had trouble getting it all the way around. I tried my Pro Dancer.  :-X :-[  Things got ugly.  Gonna save that one for a rainy day...


P.S.- movie maker from Windows 7 sucks.  I liked my old movie maker.  Gonna buy new program soon.  Video's are really for me to focus on afterwards.  I watch all the stuff that everyone deosn't see...  :D :D