GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: cids on July 17, 2011, 10:02 PM



Title: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 17, 2011, 10:02 PM
.....a 'flexible' center T(rubber?) in it and I don't like it at all.  I found the Fearless was not as controllable as before and needed bigger input to do the same trick.  The Fearless used to have a 'rigid' center T made of hard plastic.  I think I need to find a hard plastic center T ASAP.  What do you think ?



Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Kantaxel on July 17, 2011, 10:14 PM
I believe an OEM center tee would be most appropriate, in this case..........not a hard object to find....Our host could set you up right away, if you approached him.  ;)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 17, 2011, 10:35 PM
I just remembered that I ordered 3 Fearless STD center T directly from Lam for my kite pal approv. 1.5 years ago.  He used one and there are 2 left in his stockpile.  I think I'm getting it from him since he is not flying his Fearless anymore.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Lee S on July 17, 2011, 10:43 PM
Hey, buy his whole Fearless. Then you'll have a back-up for your backup ::)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 17, 2011, 10:47 PM
Actually I already did that...my White Fearless STD was his kite.  :D


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: tpatter on July 17, 2011, 10:51 PM
Lam has a new centerT that he has designed - he put one in my latest Transformer.  Get one from him, it is sweet.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 17, 2011, 10:55 PM
Actually I saw it a few days ago when Tempest received his new Transformer SUL.  It looks very well made but I still like to get the original one.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 18, 2011, 05:04 AM
I recently let a new pilot fly my FVL, and he crashed it pretty hard into the ground a few times. I took it out of his hands when I realized the upper LE was broken at the nose. I replaced the ULE, but now the kite flies like crap. It is very hesitant to go nose away, for a flic flac or to start into a 540. It feels like a regular mooshy vented kite now, in other words. I know it used to be a lot better, and I couldn't see what was wrong. I'm considering sending it back to Lam, unless there's something I overlooked ?

~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: mikenchico on July 18, 2011, 07:15 AM
I've heard rumors Lam glues weights inside some of his spars, check your old one and see if there happens to be something glued inside, if so split it open and get it out to put in your new spar.

Maybe one of the other guys can confirm that.



Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Kantaxel on July 18, 2011, 07:51 AM
Lam told me the best way to find the wieight in his kites was to use a magnet.......run it around and it will 'point' you to the spot to remove it from (the weight, ie)

Hope you kept the LE, if not check the other side.  :'(


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 18, 2011, 08:07 AM
I've replaced the ULE before on the kite after it got mooshed in the waves last fall. It flew fine after that. I think the repeated pounding it took into the ground must have shifted something else, but I was unable to see it by eye out in the field. I have to take a ruler to it, but I was just wondering if there is something specific that might be out of line causing the poor flight characteristics.

Needless to say, I'm not handing the lines off to someone I don't know anymore... he said he knew how to fly...  :'(

~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 18, 2011, 08:35 AM
I recently let a new pilot fly my FVL, and he crashed it pretty hard into the ground a few times. I took it out of his hands when I realized the upper LE was broken at the nose. I replaced the ULE, but now the kite flies like crap. It is very hesitant to go nose away, for a flic flac or to start into a 540. It feels like a regular mooshy vented kite now, in other words. I know it used to be a lot better, and I couldn't see what was wrong. I'm considering sending it back to Lam, unless there's something I overlooked ?

~Rob.

No need to send it back to Lam.  I believed there is no weight in the ULE(my Fearless STD only)....not sure about your FVL.  I think the tail weight at the bottom of the spine(inside) shifted forward and it will affect the flight performance of the kite.  Check it.  If it is not 'flush' with the end of the spine, then it shifts forward.

The tail weight of my beat-up Fearless STD shifted forward 1 inch before and it flown like crap.  After I adjusted its position,  it flown and tricked normal again.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Ca Ike on July 18, 2011, 08:44 AM
I've replaced the ULE before on the kite after it got mooshed in the waves last fall. It flew fine after that. I think the repeated pounding it took into the ground must have shifted something else, but I was unable to see it by eye out in the field. I have to take a ruler to it, but I was just wondering if there is something specific that might be out of line causing the poor flight characteristics.

Needless to say, I'm not handing the lines off to someone I don't know anymore... he said he knew how to fly...  :'(

~Rob.
  Cids may be right but IME if the tail weight inside shifts toward the nose it makes the kite more precise.  The FVL TOnycarl has not only has a weigh inside the spine but a tube weight as well.  IF it hit hard enough the inside weigh could have shifted ABOVE the center t and above the static balance point.  That will definitely make a kite hard to pancake.

As for the unknown flier I always ask what they have flown incase I need to tout the differences in the kites before handing off the lines.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 18, 2011, 09:01 AM
The 'tail weight' inside the spine shifts forward a little bit every time you hit the ground.  It is important to check its position before any serious tricking session.  :)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 18, 2011, 03:45 PM
Thanks, Guys. I bet yous hit the nail on the head. Now I just have to find something long & stiff enough to tap that internal weight back into postition. I hope that's it...
It's been a couple months since I flew it, and I didn't think my feel for the kite could've worn off that fast.
I figured I would send the FVL back to Lam if I can't figure it out, because I do need the nose patched on my original Sea Devil, after 4+ years of abuse, the spine finally poked through.
I'll let yous know how the weight issue pans out...
Thanks,
~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Ca Ike on July 18, 2011, 03:56 PM
I keep a 3/16 steel rod in my parts box for just that kind of thing.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 19, 2011, 09:00 AM
See diagram:
This is how Lam position the tail weight in my Fearless STD...He uses a few pieces of semi-soft black rubber and jam packed them at one end of the tail weight in order to secure it inside the spine(preventing the tail weight front moving forward).

You need to take out the rubber and then reposition it according to the diagram.  Problem solved.  :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/cids/07192011733.jpg)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: tpatter on July 19, 2011, 10:01 AM
Thanks for the post, cids.

I haven't had one more yet, but was told you can just 'stuff more weight in' if you want to.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 19, 2011, 01:10 PM
You are always welcome, tpatter.

I have been thinking about this 'new invention' for a while now.  By adding a tiny coil spring between the tail weight and the soft rubber,  this might prevent the tail weight from shifting forward since the spring acts as a shock absorber.  Problem solved.  May be or may be not.  :D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v681/cids/07192011733-1.jpg)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Steve on July 19, 2011, 01:16 PM
Instead of the spring couldn't you just use a short piece of Bungee Cord?


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 19, 2011, 01:21 PM
Bungee Cord is good too.
Any material that can absorb the impact(+ its shape unchanged after impact) of the tail weight is good candidate for this application.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 19, 2011, 01:28 PM
Thanks for the info, Cids. Now I just gotta find a minute to check out my internal spine weight...


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: cids on July 19, 2011, 02:24 PM
You are welcome, RobB.

I like the color of your Super BLOOD RED FVL.  :)


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 21, 2011, 04:03 AM
OK, so it looks like you guys were right about the shift of the weight. It seems to have lodged itself right above the center T. Problem is... can't seem to move it, up or down. I guess using the upper spreader as a ram is probably not a good idea. It's what I had out in the field...
But thank yous for the good information, I'm not ready to retire the FVL, but the way it was flying, I didn't want to fly it anymore...

~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 21, 2011, 06:39 PM
OK, so I tried again today to move the weight, one way or another, using a pretty stout solid fibreglass rod. I banged the crap out of it, but didn't get one mm of movement... I really couldn't exert much more force on the spine without risk of damage. Whatever's in there is ~10 cm long, and situated at the center T and above. It's a puzzler... I know if I get out the 'big hammer', I'm going to break something...

WTD?

~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: justinpwheeler on July 21, 2011, 06:47 PM
Add a little heat?


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Ca Ike on July 21, 2011, 06:55 PM
OK, so I tried again today to move the weight, one way or another, using a pretty stout solid fibreglass rod. I banged the crap out of it, but didn't get one mm of movement... I really couldn't exert much more force on the spine without risk of damage. Whatever's in there is ~10 cm long, and situated at the center T and above. It's a puzzler... I know if I get out the 'big hammer', I'm going to break something...

WTD?

~Rob.
10 CM sounds about right since the tube weight on the FVL I tried out was that long.  FIrst off if you hit it from the top the rubber stopper Lam uses is going to take the majority of the blow, the rod will absorb some as well.  Also any glue that was used is going to act like a wedge.  A good solid steel rod works best as the "anvil" but taking the spine and hitting the tail end agains a hard surface should do it.  After all thats how it got moved up in the first place.  Some times a bit of warm water will help  lube it.  Heat will just expand the weight and make it tighter since the spine rod won't change if you heat it too much.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: tpatter on July 21, 2011, 08:02 PM
Have you tried a hard quick rap with a hammer (on the fib. rod, of course)?


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: coogee on July 21, 2011, 11:42 PM
Try using a lubricant, say diluted detergent, leave it to penetrate. Then get a rod that fits inside the spar place in in the spar snug against the weight and drop the rod  onto a solid surface. Sorta pool ball effect. Look to see if the spar has any taper, you may be wedging it harder if the spar is tapered. Heating with a hair dryer may also help. Don't be shy if it breaks replace the weight in a new spar and go flying.
    Good luck Mike


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Ca Ike on July 22, 2011, 12:05 AM
Oh I almost forgot.  IF  you do try to tap it out with a rod again a pen cap or the plug can help protect the spar end from damage.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 22, 2011, 04:43 AM
Well, if I had another P2X stick, breaking it might be an option... but since I don't, and my supply order just left Chico Kites... not on the table. I just doesn't make sense that it should be stuck, it broke loose to get where it is, right ? P2X isn't tapered, so it should slide out either up or down, right ? I didn't try a hammer, but I did beat it on the pavement, and beat on it enough to splinter up the end of the fibreglass rod.
I'll keep my eye out for something metal to slide in there, and maybe try some penetrating oil... I think Anthony is right about the addition of heat, that the metal weight will expand and get stuck worse. I guess I really need to come up with a plan B... I can probably steal a P200 stick from another kite, that's the same as P2X, right ?
~Rob.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: st3307 on July 22, 2011, 07:35 AM
Hey  Rob   try finding  some  one   that  is a  shooter   of   weapons  and   borrowring    a  cleaning rod  off  of them  and  use  it  to       hit the  weight     


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: mikenchico on July 22, 2011, 07:50 AM
A P2X is just slightly heavier (.5 gram) & slightly stiffer (about 8%) then a P200, but I doubt you could tell a difference.



Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 22, 2011, 08:01 AM
Hey  Rob   try finding  some  one   that  is a  shooter   of   weapons  and   borrowring    a  cleaning rod  off  of them  and  use  it  to       hit the  weight     

Thanks, Bobby, but I don't know anyone with guns...

and thanks, Mike, for the heads up on the P2X vs. the p200... that will be my plan B.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: mikenchico on July 22, 2011, 11:28 AM
Any well stocked hardware store or lumber yard will have steel bar available (also known as a crown bolt but unthreaded is more suitable for your use), 3/16" round will fit through any straight P series spar just fine and will have enough wieght to knock most anything loose. Usually comes in 36" lengths for $3 - $4.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202183509/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202183509/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053)

And when you're done with it cut in into 3 x 12" lengths and attach antique crystal door nobs to them for some classy kite stakes  ;D



Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: tpatter on July 22, 2011, 11:41 AM
Also take the external weight from around the outside of the spine and get a length of heavy brass in that same size so that you can cut a few lengths in order to add more weight if you like.   The lighting-fast yoyos of the Transformer have spoiled me, so I've added a bit of weight to my Fearless.  :)

I have not checked my FVL, but all my other Fearless have P200 spine, so no issue there if you break your current P2X.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: ko on July 22, 2011, 03:06 PM
moisture could be the problem. lam uses a variety of materials for weight. at least 1 of mine uses threaded rod in the spine sooooo maybe corrosion ??? as in salt water bath's??I know this is not an answer to your woes rob. but after you get pissed and break it, let us know before you replace it ps i am with tom i added a bit more weight to my standard and like it even more. in any case GOOD LUCK


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: Ca Ike on July 22, 2011, 06:00 PM
moisture could be the problem. lam uses a variety of materials for weight at least 1 of mine uses threaded rod in the spine sooooo maybe corrosion ??? as in salt water bath's??I know this is not an answer to your woes rob. but after you get pissed and break it, let us know before you replace it ps i am with tom i added a bit more weight to my standard and like it even more. in any case GOOD LUCK
NOw this puts an interesting twist on things.  I was thinking glue residue but if you have dipped it in a lot of water or flown in moist conditions then corrosion is a factor.  if its brass or aluminum then the corrosion can be cleaned by a solution of baking soda and water.  IF its a steel threaded rod then wd 40 or some other penetrating oil is your solution.


Title: Re: I broke my center T in my beat-up Fearless a few days ago. I installed...
Post by: RobB on July 22, 2011, 07:41 PM
Any well stocked hardware store or lumber yard will have steel bar available (also known as a crown bolt but unthreaded is more suitable for your use), 3/16" round will fit through any straight P series spar just fine and will have enough wieght to knock most anything loose. Usually comes in 36" lengths for $3 - $4.

[url]http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202183509/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053[/url] ([url]http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202183509/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053[/url])

And when you're done with it cut in into 3 x 12" lengths and attach antique crystal door nobs to them for some classy kite stakes  ;D



Thanks for that, Mike. I actually do have a box full of old glass doorknobs, that sounds like a good idea...

I think the idea of rust jamming the works up holds a lot of merrit, considering that a dip in the waves isn't uncommon at my beach, it's only 75'-100' wide at high tide. Almost half the wind window is over the water... I will try some WD or liquid wrench to try to break it loose. I still find it strange that it moved so far, and now is so super-stuck. Of course, it has sat around for almost 2 months before I got around to repairing it.

As far as adding more weight, I've had others suggest adding weight after watching it fly. I might do away with the internal weight system to avoid this headache in the future.

Thanks for all the feadback (and sorry for the hi-jack, Cids)!
~Rob.