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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Quad Line Kites (aka "the dark side") => Topic started by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 10:35 AM



Title: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 10:35 AM
I have spoken to several Rev pilots who have said they fly their kites upside down more than with the LE above the logo.

If this is the case, why not attach the lines "inverted" so that the lines are not twisted when the kite is upside down? This would be the "normal" position for those pilots.

Open to comments here.

(http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/45041/2005881960049870108S200x200Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2005881960049870108aGYLGD) (http://inlinethumb32.webshots.com/13407/2612212080049870108S200x200Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/2612212080049870108EjEEnb) (http://inlinethumb26.webshots.com/44121/1110453572049870108S200x200Q85.jpg) (http://sports.webshots.com/photo/1110453572049870108kcubzN)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Dano on May 07, 2009, 11:16 AM
You're funny!  :D


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 11:22 AM
Not the comment I was looking for, but thanks. This was actually a real question. Heck, Revolution could even make some special kites with the logo upside down for those pilots, so the logo would read normally when the kite is inverted.  :)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: indigo_wolf on May 07, 2009, 11:39 AM
Heck, Revolution could even make some special kites with the logo upside down for those pilots, so the logo would read normally when the kite is inverted.  :)
Infinite circle logo.... that way kite orientation would be moot.  :D

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: melnsct on May 07, 2009, 12:01 PM
I talked to Ben <from Rev> once about putting the logo upside down.  He said it couldn't be done because the logo placement and orientation was part of the copyright.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: kiten00b on May 07, 2009, 12:13 PM
why not glue your gas pedal down on your car and use the brakes to control your speed?


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: ezme6 on May 07, 2009, 12:44 PM
why not glue your gas pedal down on your car and use the brakes to control your speed?

 :D :D :D :D


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: thief on May 07, 2009, 01:13 PM
I talked to Ben <from Rev> once about putting the logo upside down.  He said it couldn't be done because the logo placement and orientation was part of the copyright.
wouldn't that mean that the masterpiece revs are then unlicensed copies that should not have been made nor sold????? if the logo was part of the copyright........


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 03:22 PM
kitenoob,

Your analogy would be more accurate if you said, "Why not reverse the linkage for your accelerator and brake so the pedals would be used in reversed sequence?"

Note that with the lines reversed as I suggested, there would still be a neutral position for the handles and kite. In your analogy, the kite would be fully powered up all the time and you merely apply brakes. That is not what I suggested.

But thanks, once again, for suggesting in your own special way, that my experiments and suggestions for Revs are to be met with laughter and/or disdain.

PS. Wait until you read my next suggestion for Revs. You'll have a hoot making fun of it.  :)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Dano on May 07, 2009, 03:50 PM
I've got an analogy for you then, John...

Because i did seriously think about your idea.  ;)

We've got our brains trained already how to invert the kite, the way  it is bridled now...

Try and reverse your feet and drive your car with left foot for gas and right foot for braking.

-Just make sure the intersections are clear when you try this. 
trust me :-X

I was actually thinking about trying your idea until I remembered my experience with swapping my feet and trying to drive as a 16 y.o. kid.



Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: indigo_wolf on May 07, 2009, 04:01 PM
I've got an analogy for you then, John...

Because i did seriously think about your idea.  ;)

We've got our brains trained already how to invert the kite, the way  it is bridled now...

Try and reverse your feet and drive your car with left foot for gas and right foot for braking.

-Just make sure the intersections are clear when you try this. 
trust me :-X

I was actually thinking about trying your idea until I remembered my experience with swapping my feet and trying to drive as a 16 y.o. kid.

Too much like driving a standard shift car in the UK/Ireland.   You are sitting on the right hand side, shifting with your left instead of your right hand, and in a lane you would be scolded for being in stateside.

Drive like this for the first 5-6 hours, stop at a rest stop and you pause to decided which hand to use to pick something off a shelf.   

Turnouts on mountain roads that require one car to back up until there is enough room to get by each other also tend to highlight your tourist status.

Screws with your zen.

Of course, if something requires quick response, there is a tendency to dive for the right (wrong) lane.  ???

On the plus side.... very zippy cars with relatively small engines.  No lag carrying 3 adults and too much luggage even running a 1.8 engine.

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Allen Carter on May 07, 2009, 04:51 PM
What's the big deal with the lines being twisted?


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 05:05 PM
I didn't say it was a big deal. I just asked if people who fly their Revs mostly upside down would consider taking out the twist in the lines. I know that people who fly dog stake often reverse their hands, or so I've been told.

It would seem to cause less wear on the lines if the 1/2 twist was gone more of the time.

Let's not get in a rut here people. It's kind of sad in a way we are so locked in to one way of flying. I know when I try to fly a sport kite "wrong handed", I just lock up. It shouldn't take more than 5 minutes to get over this, maybe...... ::)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Dano on May 07, 2009, 05:26 PM
OK then,
I'll be the first to admit it.

I can't fly inverted as well as i can right side up.

If we were to bridle our Revs upside down, we'd probably switch and start flying them even more inverted (right side up)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: ozonejim on May 07, 2009, 05:33 PM
I have spoken to several Rev pilots who have said they fly their kites upside down more than with the LE above the logo.

If this is the case, why not attach the lines "inverted" so that the lines are not twisted when the kite is upside down? This would be the "normal" position for those pilots.

Open to comments here.


If I did that I would have to think  :-\  If I have to think it's to late  ;)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: lasapcheong on May 07, 2009, 05:51 PM

There might be a correlation between tendency to fly inverted more and having heavy brakes on a Rev. With heavy brakes, upright hovers are actually pretty difficult especially if the wind isn't stiff enough. Inverted hovers are actually much easier. The heavier the brakes, the harder it is to maintian an upright hover, especially close to the ground if the wind isn't strong enough.

-Darryl


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: moegeo on May 07, 2009, 05:54 PM
Tell you what...I plan on going out tomorrow. I 'll switch the lines and report back. It will be tough to have to think again ;)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: lylenc on May 07, 2009, 06:28 PM
If I went to the trouble of inverting the top and bottom lines to take out the twists in each pair, I'd also swap handles into the opposite hands so the pairs aren't crossed either.

I spend half the time with the leading edge vertical or the kite rotated a revolution, so nothing much would be gained. No matter what one does, one needs to find neutral for up/down and side/side then adjust the pigtails so the wrists are in a comfortable position.

I do like your "out of the box" thinking. That's how a "weird" idea becomes the next "why didn't I think of that" idea.

I liked the look of the holey venting concept with the smaller holes. My estimate of the hole area was 38% of the total sail. However, for the estimate of number of holes, I used to big of a hole. That could be said about several of my body orifices too.

If the "prototype" isn't flying well as a vented with 5500 holes, it may need slighlty larger holes or another couple thouand holes. My guess is that slighly larger holes would reduce drag (or whatever force) faster than adding more small holes, for the same amount of material removed.

If there is a race to see who is the most anal, I must be in medal contention and closing in on the gold.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 07, 2009, 06:51 PM
I guess I wasn't clear or totally accurate.

With the Rev upside-down, all 4 lines would basically go straight ahead. You were correct, if I just did top/bottom switch, there would still be a side to side cross-over.

Thanks for the excellent clarification. That was my intention, but I didn't propose it correctly.

On the other note, yes, larger holes (1/4" - 3/8") would probably be in the right ballpark. Might even need less holes at those larger sizes.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Watty on May 07, 2009, 08:13 PM
I am one that flies a LOT inverted... in fact, an inverted hover is the most comfortable place to sit for me. I think this is mostly because of my heavy breaks like lasapcheong mentioned. I have actually tried swapping the top and bottom lines on the handles just because I was kind of bored...... Frankly, it didn't end well. With my hands on the foam of the handles, It was difficult to get good leverage on the break lines to let it fly inverted. Plus, it felt strange O_o.

Also, there is really not a whole lot of friction going on between the lines when flying inverted to really worry about it. Most of the time, the lines don't even touch, and if they do, it is only slightly. If one is worried about wearing down one's lines, one might as well try spinning the handles while making the kite do a cartwheel.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: tonycarl60 on May 07, 2009, 10:51 PM
One time I put the wing of a r/c glider on upside down so I could fly the glider easier inverted. :)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: kitelover on May 08, 2009, 08:09 AM
John,  If we made wheels square, we might not need parking brakes on cars. Hmm, just a thought. Or is it?
Seriously though, it took sooo many hours before that inverted/crossed lines thing became second nature, I'm really having a problem with your idea. Step away from the Rev. buddy.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 08, 2009, 09:37 AM
Well then, we just start teaching new fliers with the upside down setup. They won't know it's not normal. And they will ultimately have the upside down hover without lines crossed experience.

BTW, kitelover, I don't fly Revs too often (maybe once a month). Just like to give the Rev fliers food for thought. Remember, the more lines attached to your kite, the more of an anal retentive control freak you are (and I say that with love  :-*).


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: kiten00b on May 08, 2009, 09:44 AM
if crossed lines is such an issue, why don't you fly with a control bar that you can twirl like a baton as your lines wrap?
as long as you're using modern kite lines and not string from the hardware store, a few twists in the line has a negligible  effect on flying


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: indigo_wolf on May 08, 2009, 09:56 AM
Remember, the more lines attached to your kite, the more of an anal retentive control freak you are (and I say that with love  :-*).
Could we add the caveat that on a fixed bridle foil, the additional control lines are also a survival tool?  They're the "Whoa Ponies" lines.

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Watty on May 08, 2009, 10:03 AM
Well then, we just start teaching new fliers with the upside down setup. They won't know it's not normal. And they will ultimately have the upside down hover without lines crossed experience.

BTW, kitelover, I don't fly Revs too often (maybe once a month). Just like to give the Rev fliers food for thought. Remember, the more lines attached to your kite, the more of an anal retentive control freak you are (and I say that with love  :-*).
Well, it isn't just the fact that it is out of our comfort zone. The switching of top and bottom lines causes the reverse to not have the precise control that it normally has. It seems to be more prone to being over-controlled. This is, if you are holding the handles correctly (hands on foam).


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Dano on May 08, 2009, 11:23 AM
Remember, the more lines attached to your kite, the more of an anal retentive control freak you are.

You've just confirmed it, and i'm sticking with my original reply...

You're Funny!  :D

Thanks John


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: tonycarl60 on May 08, 2009, 02:21 PM
Buy a Benson Airbow, symmetrical kite and handles :)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Watty on May 08, 2009, 05:33 PM
I went out and played with this a bit more today. With this setup, when inverted there were no twists in the lines. I was able to hold a somewhat stable inverted hover. However, I noticed that there was a LOT of tension on what are usually the break lines. This made my hands get tired much faster than normal. I could not relax as much as normal.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: chilese on May 08, 2009, 06:04 PM
Maybe the handles would have to be redesigned for the upside down "normal" orientation.

Did you try the long part of the handles on top, foam on bottom?

By the way, thanks for taking a look at this. I value your inputs.  :)


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Watty on May 08, 2009, 06:08 PM
I held the handles normally. I had swapped the top and bottom lines on the handles, and switched hands so that I was holding the handles properly, and had no twists in the lines. I can try it, but I think if I just flip the handles over and hold at the foam, I will have the same problem, but the stress will just be above my hand instead of below.... However, if I held onto the metal part of the handles (normally below the foam) I suppose this could solve the stress problem, but I would look funny doing it.


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: mikenchico on May 08, 2009, 08:24 PM
That makes sense that it would drastically change the balance on the handles. Rev handles were designed to balance in a hover on your index finger placed just above the foam. John's newest idea doesn't require swapping lines just rotate your handles and switch hands, so we've danced full circle here but we've still lost that natural balance and rotation point on the handles the Hadzicki's worked out.

I have a solution that will retain all the original design features AND untwist the lines so I think I've solved all the problems ....

for those that percieve twisted lines as a problem and like to fly thier Revs upside down more then rightside up ... fly standing on your head  :D





Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: KiteLife on May 08, 2009, 09:21 PM
John, no disdain here, only laughter.  ;D

Nothing to offer otherwise that hasn't already been said.

*posted from my macbook - on a train - in Japan*


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: bt on May 13, 2009, 12:50 AM
John, seeing as you are more of a dual line fellow, I think the humor part would be akin to reversing the lines on a dualie....hey I`ve tried it and it was interesting and sort of funny.......
Anyway I remember trying this quite a number of years ago with a pile of combos. ie lines.....normal/reversed/length plus handle combos regular/upside down, tc ultra/deca/homemade deca/rev types and combos of rev handles as well....small rev 2 handles guiding a rev 1...homemade deca handles guiding a 1.5 for example...not to mention the kites themselves...upright/upsidedown...revs and decas....not the tc ultra as I can hardly fly that one inverted very well at all....and also both indoor and outdoor....
There were a few times when a quasi new style of quad flying emerged but no....not really. Aside from the differences in revs and decas nothing felt natural in any reversal of lines/handles/kites, or I had to think too much (see below), and as stated previously the wrist motion was stressed in a different and tiring way (also see below). I recall the revs flipping and being bow tied a bunch...
I did however really like the upside down deca roll and unroll....  There are a few symmetrical quads....airbow/mquad/symphony come to mind..sure there`s more....
Interesting and valid experiment though....as is your query....I think it would be very cool with a quad of a very different design..there was a vid of a quasi circular clown kite rolling about which almost begged for an approach like this.
See below part....I tried this also in conjunction with my job...which is a drummer. Seeing as I`ve always tried to play upside down..no not the rotating drum kit but having my hands play what my feet would normally play and my feet play what my hands would play as an exercise, along with the ambidexterity exercises, as well as playing both right and left handed setups. This of course takes a bunch of thought but I try not to think about it. Same with flying. Also I like flying quads as it`s good for my wrists and fingers but flying reversed put an unnatural stress on them so I stopped that pretty quick. Nothing major but enough not to pursue it anymore.
bt


Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: Slow Dog on May 13, 2009, 08:54 AM
It occurs to me your Noitulover M Shaped Kite with Single Trailing Edge cunningly bypasses any pesky Copyrights/Patents, and is free for you to manufacture and sell throughout the USA.

Perhaps  ;)



Title: Re: Upside Down Line Setup
Post by: lylenc on May 22, 2009, 06:16 AM
"Also I like flying quads as it`s good for my wrists and fingers but flying reversed put an unnatural stress on them so I stopped that pretty quick."

You might try pulling the bottom lines in one knot on the pigtail (add more brake). It would help straighten out the wrists if they are overextended in the inverted position. That assumes it doesn't put you in an uncomfortable wrist position for normal flight.