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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: KaoS on February 19, 2012, 12:02 AM



Title: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on February 19, 2012, 12:02 AM
I tried, I really did.  But no matter how much time I spent on the Solus, I couldn't get used to the oversteer and tendency to spin stall. In all other respects it promised to be a fantastic kite - great balance, quick and controlled pitch, just the right level of turtle, steady fade.  In fact everything attempted when the kite is not in forward motion is excellent ... but trying straight lines and corners brought back the dreaded oversteer and unsteady wandering.

Today we had "laboratory grade" wind at our local beach, ideal time to try a bit of tweaking.  First up I halved the length of the turbo leg, then moved the upper bridle adjustment to the longest setting.

(http://images16.fotki.com/v383/photos/7/1814857/10356248/sbridle1-vi.jpg) (http://images59.fotki.com/v791/photos/7/1814857/10356248/sbridle2-vi.jpg)

Next... turns out there wasn't a next.  This transformed the kite from a "maybe I'll get used to it" to a "Wow, I love this at least as much as the Widowmaker and then some more"

So if you've been struggling with a Solus that is a bit skittish for your tastes, DON'T GIVE UP ON IT.  Try this simple adjustment.  It has taken my Solus from nearly being relegated to the B-bag to top of the A-bag


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 21, 2012, 12:45 AM
Thats the reason Jon made it so adjustable, Pilot preference.  In all reality the Solus has no oversteer, its just REALLY easy to over control in turns and lines since it takes such small movements to do anything.  AS I said in my review thread, and many times since) most inputs needed are no more than a wrist flick so its easy to over control the kite. 

 A simpler way to adjust turn rate is to move the out haul leg closer or farther away from  the tow point and is a bit better way to adjust it because you don't lose AoA setting adjustment of the up haul and you don't affect pitch as much.  Just loosen the sheet bend knot and move it to where you want it.  I'm pretty happy with my Std the way Jon set it but having flown kites with REAL oversteer (turn it and it keeps turning unless you do a reverse turn input) I can adjust easily to it.  Part of the charm of the solus for me is its tight turn radius and the resulting dead stop spin stall capability.

Try reverting your settings back and move the out haul toward the spine by 1/2 inch (give or take 1/4 inch) and you might be pleased with the result.  IT doesn't take much adjusting of the outhaul leg to lessen the spin stall tendency.

Oh, I almost forgot to mention checking your upper spreader length.  Jon did cut a few of the earlier ones a bit too long which made the kite turn tighter and seem more responsive to slight inputs(twitchy on straight lines).  It should be 21 11/16 - 21 3/4.  I cut mine just after I got the notice on it and it tracked noticeably smoother.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Allen Carter on February 21, 2012, 10:53 AM
Andrew, how was the Solus UL I flew last week set up? Very solid in turns and stable in a straight line. My impression of the Solus has always been that its an easy kite to fly well.  Oversteer issues are a surprise.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 21, 2012, 03:04 PM
Andrew, how was the Solus UL I flew last week set up? Very solid in turns and stable in a straight line. My impression of the Solus has always been that its an easy kite to fly well.  Oversteer issues are a surprise.
BOth my solus' are set the way Jon built them as far as bridle settings except I moved the ul AoA setting up one knot since I fly it in 1-3 a lot.   THe twitchiness and superfast turn response as well as the dead spot in the flare to fade was noticable when I first got mine but correcting the upper spreader length as Jon told me fixed it.  Aparently he had an issue with his spar cutter setting slipping on the early run of kites so anyone that has these quirks needs to check that first before doing any bridle adjustments.

I've also come to the conclusion that any kiter that hasn't flown 80's kites has no idea what oversteer is.  It's commonly mistaken to claim a tight , quick turning, spin stall capable kite that prefers push or pull turns to combo turns for clean corners as having over steer.  However this is not oversteer.  OVersteer is what we had on early stunt kites where you tuned or looped and it would keep turning effectively going into a death spiral from its own momentum unless you initiated an opposite turn to stop it.  Very common before standoffs came along when the sail would luff on one side in a turn and on some if not most of the early low aspect ratio kites with shallow, wide keels.  This is partly why standoffs or winglets became common near the wing tips to reduce washout and stabilize turns and why deep sails with standoffs near the spine have become the norm. 

I think it was zippy8 that had a video showing a kite with true oversteer but he did have one of the best explanations of oversteer.  The kick turn/half axel started partly as a way to turn a kite tight and fast and avoid the oversteer tendency of the early kites.

ANthony


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on February 21, 2012, 03:13 PM

OVersteer is what we had on early stunt kites where you tuned or looped and it would keep turning effectively going into a death spiral from its own momentum unless you initiated an opposite turn to stop it. 

Yep, that's exactly what my Solus had

... Just loosen the sheet bend knot and move it to where you want it.

Hmmm... sounds like Jon is tying the bridles differently now.  No sheet bend on my bridle, only Lark's Heads and Prusicks.

Part of the charm of the solus for me is its tight turn radius and the resulting dead stop spin stall capability.

Yep, that's what it behaves like now

...and yes, it has the shorter upper spreader.  Jon emailed me about that before the kite arrived.

Seems I'm not the only one affected by this anomaly, I've had 3 Solus owners PM me with the same behaviour on their Soluses (Soli?),  and one of them is extremely well respected in the European sport kite world.  I have emailed Jon about my concerns, just waiting for him to return from leave


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 21, 2012, 03:32 PM
Unless there is something really off on the frame or bridle on yours, I'm still going to say its more you over controlling the kite for the particular winds your flying in.  If you'd like you can send me your bridle measurements (stock settings) and I can compare them to mine to double check.  I can tell  you though that the Solus does not like combo turn inputs unless you want to do a spin stall.  It likes punch turn inputs and on combo turn inputs you just have to move your finger tips to get it to respond.  Literally 3/4 inch of movement in a combo turn input and your over controlling it.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: tpatter on February 21, 2012, 05:03 PM
I am unsure that I can define oversteer well, but I know what a kite feels like when it is exhibiting it (or at least what I think oversteer is called).  I've only been flying modern kites, which apparently no longer exhibit oversteer, so perhaps what I am thinking oversteer is in fact something else?  I've been reading this thread looking for a clean definition and this seemed like a good time to jump in.

I did a search, and this rings with what I call oversteer.

"Oversteer can be defined as the tendency for a kite to delay in response to quick turns and movements. This shows up as a tendency to 'bobble' coming out of square turns, or 'spinout' when doing quick spins. There is a feeling of 'inertia' in the kite during spins and turns."

from here: http://members.shaw.ca/cyuen/pl3.htm (http://members.shaw.ca/cyuen/pl3.htm)

I'd sum it up as - the kite is unwilling to stop turning the instant that I want it to stop and come out on a straight line - it feels a bit 'loose'.


-Tom



Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: B-13 on February 21, 2012, 07:10 PM
I am unsure that I can define oversteer well, but I know what a kite feels like when it is exhibiting it (or at least what I think oversteer is called).  I've only been flying modern kites, which apparently no longer exhibit oversteer, so perhaps what I am thinking oversteer is in fact something else?  I've been reading this thread looking for a clean definition and this seemed like a good time to jump in.

I did a search, and this rings with what I call oversteer.

"Oversteer can be defined as the tendency for a kite to delay in response to quick turns and movements. This shows up as a tendency to 'bobble' coming out of square turns, or 'spinout' when doing quick spins. There is a feeling of 'inertia' in the kite during spins and turns."

from here: [url]http://members.shaw.ca/cyuen/pl3.htm[/url] ([url]http://members.shaw.ca/cyuen/pl3.htm[/url])

I'd sum it up as - the kite is unwilling to stop turning the instant that I want it to stop and come out on a straight line - it feels a bit 'loose'.


-Tom




Tom if this is your explanation (info gathered) then i would say that my one and only kite that has these problem is my Silver Fox Pro 2.3!! Now you nailed the exact behavior of the kite in spins.
There is a feeling of 'inertia' in the kite during spins and turns.

That's what EXACTLY what i have and despite trying hard learning flying with it as some suggested, it will over spins in some spins and have this inertia in the kite.

B


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: justinpwheeler on February 21, 2012, 07:33 PM
Newb question, but isn't it the inertia that helps a kite to be tricky giving the user some momentum going into spins and the like?


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: B-13 on February 21, 2012, 08:40 PM
AFAIK we have two type of rotations (major ones)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7185/6773382610_dd26c4b7c0.jpg)

A - One basic one with kite nose facing up/down and belly of the kite facing pilots.
We use this to unwrap our twisted lines after some tricks

B - The other one is the flat rotation one where nose is towards/away pilot and belly up/down.
Used for flat rotational tricks like axels, 540, Taz, etc

The inertia we get on A is the problem here where kite will get input from flyer on wing L or R and it will spin in that direction. On Some kites (my SF Pro 2.3 here) if wing L is pulled for a spins, then the hand is returned to neutral before 360deg spin is completed, the kite will not stop at 0deg (initial position), it will past this to 90deg or even more and user have to correct this either with other hand or let kite drive in the direction it want to. This is not present in my other kites and even on the cheapo little kite that don't even tricks and only can loops and spins.

In B option, the inertia is great as little input is required from user and complete rotation is achieved easily. On the SF Pro 2.3 is get nice 540 and "flat" axels.

It does fly and track straight but a sharp tug on corners to initiate 90deg or 45deg turns will result in this problem explained in A.

Hope i am clear enough here in the explanations.

And sorry for hijacking this thread with another kite but taking it only as example and hope it was same issue OP was having here

B


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 21, 2012, 10:35 PM
Ok one thing we have to remember is due to adding weights to kites we are in a sense adding in oversteer or extra rotational momentum.  To really judge if a kite has oversteer in a design flaw manor you have to fly it without any weight added. 

IF a kite has oversteer it WILL NOT stop spinning or turning once you return to neutral straight flight hand position.  Now most any kite at the low end of its wind range will have some oversteer just due to lack of sail pressure but thats another thing altogether.  A kite in a spin stall if it in its wind range will generally stop with wing tips level IF your input timing is good.  IF it has oversteer that same spin stall, no matter how good  your inputs are, will result in the kite going nose down again or worse ending up in a death spiral.  Oversteer REQUIRES a counter turn every time you turn the kite be it a simple arc or a tight reverse turn. It simply will not readily return to straight line flight by returning to neutral.   A twitchy kite that is really sensitive to inputs does not necessarily have oversteer, just really sensitive.  In my experience a kite that has oversteer is also hard to snapstall since the initial snap will often cause the kite to nearly 180 and the 2nd snap results in a death spiral.  A kite with oversteer is also hard to side slide since nearly every input gets more than the desired amount of adjustment in the kite.  Another thing to consider is some kites become more sensitive on short lines.


NOw when it comes to the solus, it is a sensitive kite that responds to very small inputs and If you watch my recent vid you can see that 99% of the time I'm doing slightly more than wrist flicks and for some thats too sensitive.  What Kevins adjustments do is take out a lot of that sensitivity by moving the tow point out toward the leading edge increasing the size of the inputs needed to get the same turn rate.  He just used a different method than what was explained to me. 

To adjust pitch and  input sensitivity, you move the tow point pigtail shortening or lengthening the turbo leg.  To  adjust turn rate and to a small degree, pitch, you move the out haul in or out where it attaches to the up haul.  AoA or wind speed, knots on the up haul link.  By all means feel free to tune to  your preference as Jon says :)


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on February 21, 2012, 11:05 PM
 See here (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6947.0)


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: tpatter on February 21, 2012, 11:10 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  What I was thinking of as oversteer is a much less serious version of what you describe in that it self-corrects after a bit of 'wobble' coming in/out of the turn/spin.  I wouldn't bother to fly a kite that behaved the way you describe.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 21, 2012, 11:33 PM
Thanks for the clarification.  What I was thinking of as oversteer is a much less serious version of what you describe in that it self-corrects after a bit of 'wobble' coming in/out of the turn/spin.  I wouldn't bother to fly a kite that behaved the way you describe.
THat wobble I find comes from the added tail weight which is why I suggest flying without the weight before jumping the oversteer claim.  THe best example of a kite that has weight induced oversteer that I have in my bag is my Saber 2 with all 5 nuts in it (35g). THe other one would be my Zephyr but thats adding a controlled amount for tricking purposes so its a bit different.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Adamld13 on February 22, 2012, 09:50 AM
I tried, I really did.  But no matter how much time I spent on the Solus, I couldn't get used to the oversteer and tendency to spin stall. In all other respects it promised to be a fantastic kite - great balance, quick and controlled pitch, just the right level of turtle, steady fade.  In fact everything attempted when the kite is not in forward motion is excellent ... but trying straight lines and corners brought back the dreaded oversteer and unsteady wandering.

Today we had "laboratory grade" wind at our local beach, ideal time to try a bit of tweaking.  First up I halved the length of the turbo leg, then moved the upper bridle adjustment to the longest setting.

([url]http://images16.fotki.com/v383/photos/7/1814857/10356248/sbridle1-vi.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://images59.fotki.com/v791/photos/7/1814857/10356248/sbridle2-vi.jpg[/url])

Next... turns out there wasn't a next.  This transformed the kite from a "maybe I'll get used to it" to a "Wow, I love this at least as much as the Widowmaker and then some more"

So if you've been struggling with a Solus that is a bit skittish for your tastes, DON'T GIVE UP ON IT.  Try this simple adjustment.  It has taken my Solus from nearly being relegated to the B-bag to top of the A-bag


This is pretty much the exact modification I did to my fox pro and I agree it flew a million times better...for my liking that is. But one thing now is that it's nearly impossible to wrap the kite up.

Can adjusting your bridal this way decrease ability to yoyo?



Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 22, 2012, 11:16 AM
Yes Adam it can.  The more stable and precise a kite is the harder it can be to trick.  Its a tough balance.  Long turbo legs help with roll ups and add pitch and rotational instability.  Start reversing your settings a bit at a time until you get that satisfactory balance for your liking.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: tpatter on February 22, 2012, 11:38 AM
Did you also change the AoA when you adjusted the turbo leg?  If not, then that could be part of it. 

I would check the stock specs on the SF bridle if they are available to see where you are at by comparison.  My feeling on this stuff is usually that the designer of the kite has already done what you are trying to do - its a key part of the kite as a whole. 


Tom



Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 22, 2012, 12:14 PM
Now were getting really off topic here lol.  Sorry Kevin :)  I flew an SF pro a couple weeks ago and I have to say it's fine stock if you want it to be the trick monster Bell had in mind with decent tracking.  Like the solus the SF pro likes small inputs when flying precision, prefers punch turns to combo turns and its really easy to over control that kite. 

I will be trying Kevins bridle adjustments myself.  My solus has no oversteer, IT spins tight and spin stalls easily but its very controlable.  Look at 2:40-2:48 in this vid where I spin stall it 180 degrees to an arcing slide and other spots where I dead stop rotations.  THis is a well behaved kite with no oversteer.  REsponsive yes but no oversteer so I will compare Kevins settings on my kite to see how it changes and see if there might be a bridle issue.  Mistakes happen and no builder is perfect.

Sign of the times (solus std) (http://vimeo.com/37159094)


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: PAW on February 22, 2012, 03:03 PM
@ Ca Ike
...is that you flying in this video ?


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on February 22, 2012, 03:11 PM
Yes Adam it can.  The more stable and precise a kite is the harder it can be to trick.  Its a tough balance.  Long turbo legs help with roll ups and add pitch and rotational instability.  Start reversing your settings a bit at a time until you get that satisfactory balance for your liking.

This statement is a HUGE oversimplification and very misleading.  One of the most stable and precise modern kites (BMK Mamba) is dead easy to trick.

Long turbo legs on a bridle are totally unnecessary to make a kite pitch, in fact turbo legs aren't necessary for pitch at all.  The Widowmaker originally came with a 3 point bridle and was a piece of cake to roll up in either direction.  The turbo bridle that was fitted to later versions contributed nothing to pitch or roll ups.  But it made a big difference to stall characteristics.

Adam, adjusting the bridle on any kite is very particular to THAT kite.  There are SO many other variables that go into making a kite stable, trickable, precise, slow or fast turning.  Things like weight distribution, standoff positions, bridle attachment points, total mass, trailing edge tension, leading edge shape, sail billow ...  So what works on one particular kite may have a totally different effect on another.  Lengthening the turbo leg on a MEFM was how you improved precision, on other kites it has the opposite effect.

 :( I can't believe this post has gone so off topic


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on February 22, 2012, 03:14 PM
@ Ca Ike
...is that you flying in this video ?


...and in this (http://virtualfreestyle.com/videos/VF21/VF21%20-%20Anthony%20Eichele.mov) one?



Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on February 22, 2012, 06:09 PM
@ Ca Ike
...is that you flying in this video ?


...and in this ([url]http://virtualfreestyle.com/videos/VF21/VF21%20-%20Anthony%20Eichele.mov[/url]) one?


YEs thats me in both videos Paw.  THe one Kevin linked is the first flight on my solus std. THe other one is from a couple days ago.  It took me a while to get used to the solus coming from a big input kite but I connected with it pretty good right off.

Back on topic Kevin.  I tried your settings today and I didn't notice much of a difference.  WHat I did notice was the low end is a slight bit better, taz is a bit easier but rollups and everything else didn't change much at all.  Tracking is still the same and precision didn't really change enough to matter to me.  TUrn rate is less sensitive and thats what you were going for so it works for your purposes.  I actually got a similar feel just by removing the weight.  ONly thing I did different from the way Jon set it was tighten the leech line by about 1/8 inch so its relatively quiet up to 8 mph.  I sent you my bridle measurements so you can compare them to yours. Maybe your bridle is off somehow.   Thats one thing I like about the solus is the tail weight doesn't change the kite much at all.  It just enhances rollups and rotational tricks


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: adx1592 on February 22, 2012, 06:13 PM
Ike,
Thank you Thank you THANK YOU!  :)  (for sending the measurements)

Kevin, sorry I couldn't send you them in a PM as we've talked about. After my recital is over, I'll get my kites back out and be able to spend some time on them before KP and will get you measurements as well just in case.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on March 07, 2012, 07:53 PM
Hey Kevin, any update on your bridle specs?  I've been going back n forth between your set up and stock on mine and on mine it puts the tow point too far outside the aero center of the wing.  Compared to my initial impression which was in the low end of the wind range, in the 10-12 I was out in today the kite became hyper sensitive to inputs during tricks to the point of almost being uncontrollable.  Straight lines were good but turn radius almost disappeared.   I had to shorten my inhaul to bring it back into a better turn rate but lost overall performance.



Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: KaoS on March 08, 2012, 03:08 PM
Hey Kevin, any update on your bridle specs? 

I like my settings.  Got an email recently, turns out JT likes my bridle settings too.


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: lummas on March 12, 2012, 09:31 AM
Well, just spent the weekend at Kite Party, where wind was light.  I spent a large chunk of the weekend flying the Soulus UL with Devin and John T.  For all this talk of bridles issues, I have to say that the UL was an absolute joy to fly.  Played with it for hours and liked it so much, I even nabbed Devin's personal one to use during our Too Much Fun team demo!  Thanks to Devin and SkyBurner for their work and for sharing.  It was a great weekend.

Mark
Team Too Much Fun


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: Ca Ike on March 13, 2012, 05:56 PM
Well, just spent the weekend at Kite Party, where wind was light.  I spent a large chunk of the weekend flying the Soulus UL with Devin and John T.  For all this talk of bridles issues, I have to say that the UL was an absolute joy to fly.  Played with it for hours and liked it so much, I even nabbed Devin's personal one to use during our Too Much Fun team demo!  Thanks to Devin and SkyBurner for their work and for sharing.  It was a great weekend.

Mark
Team Too Much Fun
You and Devin made it look so easy I almost wanted to pack mine up and hide, Almost  :D 


Title: Re: Solus bridle modification
Post by: lummas on March 19, 2012, 12:59 PM
Hide... I don't think so!  But we did have a great time.

Mark