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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 12:15 AM



Title: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 12:15 AM
Hi,

I've been looking at the lines that are being offered around.

Am I right in saying that they are all the same material (i.e. Dyneema) but they give them different names (and brands)?

For my next UL kite I have been recommended "Shanti Speed Line" or "Climax Pro-tec" by some people.
At my local store they can provide me with "Skyline".

Any REAL difference?

So I'm a bit lost...  :(

And this without going into the strength and length... ?!

I've been told that for the Talon UL I should get me 90pounds 80feet.
But at my local store they tell me 38Kg 25metres.

This is crazy!
It is difficult enough to make the conversions between metric and imperial that when you do, the amounts don't match!  :(

Of course, if I have to rely on my (only) local store I would be buying "Skyline" 38Kg and make me two lines of 25-30metres each.
Is this fine?

Any help will be GREATLY appreciated?

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: B-13 on May 03, 2012, 12:50 AM
Ara, relax man :)

#90 is like 90lbs and is 40kg :)
80' is 24.3m so for 70cm less you will not die or your kite will not behave wild LOL
For a UL #90 is OK and i will fly on a 65' lines if winds are a bit low.

As for brands, this is another story and it has been discussed thousands of times here..just read the old posts :)
i don't know much about the Skyline brand but i use the Climax Protec orange sometimes. A nice line and very low stretch in it. It has a nice coating too which makes it really slippery.
Besides this i am on LPG for the others and for my Revs.
I think getting the Climax from the UK will be cheaper for you and it is a good line.

B


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ca Ike on May 03, 2012, 01:11 AM
OH god this is a big can of worms.  I'll shed what my little light can illuminate.  First off if a line set says "Dyneema" dig deeper.  Dyneema is a brand name for polyester dacron line but can also be used as a name for cheap spectra.  MOst of your cheap kites come with the dacron Dyneema which is ok line but has a lot of stretch, binds easily and is really springy.  IF anyone tells you Dyneema line is spectra don't readily belive it.   However Dyneema line is being replaced by Excel brand spectra which is actually good line but it is still being called Dyneema for some reason.  PRobably just too many info cards left over and manufacturers don't want to just throw them out.

Shanti, Laser pro, CLimax, PRism line (laserpro or excel depending on kite model) is all spectra which is a superior fiber to polyester dacron.  THe difference between the grade of lines these makers offer is largely in the braid and coatings.  The higher the quality the better and tighter the braid and sometimes the better the coating.  THe fiber is the same but the better the braid the better the line.  SInce spectra doesn't actually stretch unless heated it does whats known as "creep".  As you fly a cheap spectra line set the braid tightens on itself and the slack taken up will add length to a line giving a perceived stretch.

The advantage to dacron is that it does stretch making it more resiliant than spectra and has better abbrasion resisteance, but the downside is you loose input response time from your hand to the kite.  THink of a bungie cord tied to a weight.  YOu have to stretch the bungie a certain amount before you can move that weight.  Dacron line does the same thing on a smaller scale.  Spectra on the other hand does not stretch which give great response time, but the downside is when you reach its limit it breaks, dacron comparatively just stretches and becomes weaker until it breaks so it is a more durable line.  THis is why a lot of power kite line is a blend.  Spectra for low stretch, dacron for durability.

As for line length that is pure preference or necessity based on flying space.  I prefer 125 feet but I have the room for it and I do fly my UL's and SUL's on 125's just on lighter weights.

THe reason for the weight is not only for breaking strength but line diameter.  THinner line has less wind drag which transfers more wind power to the kite.  LIne length has a similar effect but at a bit lesser degree.  Compare it to standing face into the wind vs. the wind at your side and the difference in feel of the wind pushing against you. so the preference is to go with the lightest line you can use without it breaking in the wind conditions your flying in.  90-100# is a good all around weight.  There is a point where weight based on length due to the amount of line negates the drag savings from the diameter but unless you get to 200 foot or longer or over 175#  thats not really a concern.

IIRC skyline was a Climax product as well but Someone from over the pond can better confirm that.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 01:37 AM
Wow!   :o

I'm baffled...   ???

OK, I now understand the theory, but still not the practical points about what I have accessible and what is optimal...

So... if I want to keep my local store a little happy (since I'm not buying kites from them...  ::)  ), is it OK to buy them this Skyline lines material?

Please, is anyone using these lines?
What do you think about the braid and the coating? (do I now sound like an expert?  ;)  )

Should I forget about them and not go to my local store ever again...?   :-[

Thanks,

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: B-13 on May 03, 2012, 02:25 AM
Anthony gave you all you need to know.

Depending on the price, precut on winders or spools, i will suggest you buy one and give it a try...if it's not so expensive compared to the one you will order + shipping..then go for it..
Sport kiting is a one time investment and you don't have to buy weather, wind, spaces, etc...but from time to time some accessories and spare parts need their piece of the purse :)


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 03:35 AM
Thanks B13, but still, the brand I can readily get is unclear to me whether it is a good brand or not.

I have already asked for a whole spool of 38Kg (~83.78lbs) to my local store, but I'm now afraid it will not be a good product.

If anyone has used this specific brand I will be very grateful to have some feedback.

Thanks!

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Hadge on May 03, 2012, 05:54 AM
Ok, this is what I use.

Up to 8mph ( 12kph) with UL's  -  20m x 50 lb ( 22kg/DaN)

8-15 mph ( 12-25kph) with standards - 25m x 90lb ( 40kg/DaN) - this is the one I use 90% of the time

15 - 25 mph (25-40kph) with my vented  - 30m x 150lb (70kg/DaN)

Over 25mph -(40kph +) with the Delta Hawk - 35m X 220lb ( 110kg/DaN)

I prefer coated dyneema lines, and of the lines I've tried I like Climax ProTec or Professional best - thin, strong, doesn't stretch, very slippery - 20-30 twists without binding and it's fairly cheap for a premium line. It lasts well too, my oldest set is 3 years old but still in good condition.  I've tried Shanti and wasn't impressed, it seemed to bind up quickly but it was a very new set and may have needed  flying in for a while.

You can get a set of pre measured, sleeved Climax lines on a winder for around £20 here in the UK - if you need contact details I can PM you a couple of UK sites that can supply.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 08:00 AM
Thanks!

All this information is very useful.

On the other hand I just now found a comment in the Fractured Axel forum saying the Skyline Horizon lines are quite good, resistant, not prone to stretching and quite silent under twist & tension.

So looks like after all I am getting a good spool of line material.

Now the problem will be actually making the lines: same length, knots, sleves, etc., etc. *sigh*  I hope I can do it properly  ::)

Cheers!

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Hadge on May 03, 2012, 08:28 AM
http://www.thegreedybrain.com/StuntKiteTips/sleeve.htm (http://www.thegreedybrain.com/StuntKiteTips/sleeve.htm)




Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: ae on May 03, 2012, 08:37 AM
OH god this is a big can of worms.  I'll shed what my little light can illuminate.  First off if a line set says "Dyneema" dig deeper.  Dyneema is a brand name for polyester dacron line but can also be used as a name for cheap spectra.  MOst of your cheap kites come with the dacron Dyneema which is ok line but has a lot of stretch, binds easily and is really springy.  IF anyone tells you Dyneema line is spectra don't readily belive it.   However Dyneema line is being replaced by Excel brand spectra which is actually good line but it is still being called Dyneema for some reason.  PRobably just too many info cards left over and manufacturers don't want to just throw them out.


I'm sorry but the parts about Dyneema are simply wrong.
Spectra and Dyneema are exactly the same base material.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene)


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Gamelord on May 03, 2012, 11:53 AM
CA is correct, even though Dyneema and Spectra are made from the same base materials, how those materials are combined with other materials will effect the line's overall quality.

This is like saying a child's bicycle tire is the exact same thing as a high performance steel belted radial tire because they both use the same base material (rubber).

How the HDMP fibers are made and then woven or even mixed with other materials is what makes one line a high performance sport kite line and another a high stretching fishing line and yet another a very cheap inexpensive stretchy junk kite line.

Spectra is a trademarked name owned by the Honneywell corp.  Dyneema is Asia's attempt at copying or producing the same type of fibers without the copyright issues.  Even though the two lines use the same core materials, they are both produced differently and braided differently. How these lines are made will determine the quality.  Some spectra based line may not be as good as some Dyneema based line....and there are some Dyneema lines that can't hold a candle against high quality Spectra line.  It all depends on who and how the lines are being produced.

High quality Spectra kite line generally has less overall stretch than high quality Dyneema line.  This is caused by the size of the individual fibers that are used to make up each of the lines.  In general, Spectra line is a little bit better than Dyneema...again this is in general.

I could purchase a bunch of Spectra fibers, hand braid them into a clump of line but it would never be near the quality of Shanti or LPG even though they are both using the "Same base materials".


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 11:57 AM
[url]http://www.thegreedybrain.com/StuntKiteTips/sleeve.htm[/url] ([url]http://www.thegreedybrain.com/StuntKiteTips/sleeve.htm[/url])


Thanks Hadge!
Very useful!

Also, what is the best way to make sure both lines are equal in length?

In the "What's in your kite bag (besides kites)?" post I saw the following:

Quote
line Equalizer


Is that something to help you make the lines the same length?
If so, what does the "thing" look like?

Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Hadge on May 03, 2012, 01:23 PM
Assuming you are using a bulk spool of line. You'll need a line sleeving tool or something similar - thin stiff wire

http://www.cygnus-sails.com/spage-team_riders_cygnus-how_to_replace_sleeving_on_kitesurf_lines.html (http://www.cygnus-sails.com/spage-team_riders_cygnus-how_to_replace_sleeving_on_kitesurf_lines.html)

Thread on the sleeving ( lets say Red) and tie a loop as my other post.

put a stake through the loop into the ground and measure out the length you want -  25m? - plus a few cm more and cut the line.

Tie another loop with your other sleeving colour ( probably black) making sure the loop is the same size as the other. hook it around the stake and measure out the same length as the other line.

Take the 'red' line and thread the other red sleeve on the other end and tie a loop ( make sure you the same colour sleeving on both ends of the same line - sounds obvious but I've got it wrong before!)

Thread the other black sleeving on the other end of the 'black' line -try and get the lines the same length.

loop one of the lines around each of your index fingers and give them a good pull, now compare the lengths and adjust one of the loops until both lines are the same length when under slight tension.

Wind the lines onto your winder and the job is done !

remember to check your new lines again after a couple of flights as the may well need adjusting again when all the knots have settled.

Line Equalisers - you can make your own:

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2586/4004342357_db8c2c6e30_o.jpg)

Stake one end of your lines down and loop the other ends on each of the hooks, take up the slack and it should sit in the middle if it is off center you need to adjust your lines.

Some line winders have one built in:

(http://voi-master.datafarm.de/out/pictures/1/sol_vglls1011015_1.jpg)

Hook a loop around each of the indents at the top of the winder and put you finger through the hole in the middle and pull.

Most of the time using your index fingers gets you pretty close.

Check this tutorial out at about 1 minute and you'll see what I mean - this is for quad lines but the principle is the same.

Revolution Tutorial - Line Equalizing (quad line stunt kite) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIbbM3udKFI#ws)


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 03, 2012, 02:24 PM
Wow Hadge.

What a tutorial!
I feel like I can now become a professional line maker   ;)   :D

Thanks so, so much really for all this help.

Now I only have to wait for everything to arrive, the lines, sleeves, winder,... and, of course, the Talon UL!

Thanks a lot again!
Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: sluggo on May 03, 2012, 02:25 PM
I equalize by holding the two lines (after stretching them) together under light tension and sighting along them to the fixed end. I pull on one line or the other just a little bit until they both dip the same amount in the middle. I then clamp the lines together a foot or so from the end and make the end loops, relying on the idea that if the loops were the same length before tying knots, they will also be the same length after tying knots (this may not work as well if you sleeve your lines -- I don't).


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: DD on May 03, 2012, 05:04 PM
to sleeve or not to sleeve, one of the great debates


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: tpatter on May 03, 2012, 05:37 PM

I've been using this technique for years now - works great.  I don't sleeve however - I just don't see a need to and it bunches up with light weight line like 50#.   I do tie some bridle line loops for both ends and just larks head them on.  This makes it easy to adjust length after the line stretches without having to re-cut.

http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/making_a_lineset.pdf (http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/making_a_lineset.pdf)




Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ca Ike on May 03, 2012, 06:52 PM
OH god this is a big can of worms.  I'll shed what my little light can illuminate.  First off if a line set says "Dyneema" dig deeper.  Dyneema is a brand name for polyester dacron line but can also be used as a name for cheap spectra.  MOst of your cheap kites come with the dacron Dyneema which is ok line but has a lot of stretch, binds easily and is really springy.  IF anyone tells you Dyneema line is spectra don't readily belive it.   However Dyneema line is being replaced by Excel brand spectra which is actually good line but it is still being called Dyneema for some reason.  PRobably just too many info cards left over and manufacturers don't want to just throw them out.


I'm sorry but the parts about Dyneema are simply wrong.
Spectra and Dyneema are exactly the same base material.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene[/url] ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-high-molecular-weight_polyethylene[/url])
ACtually they are the same "Base" material in that they are both a polyethylene derivative but thats as far as it goes.  The fiber developed by Nasa in conjunction with Allied Signal we know as spectra is a proprietary formula no one else but who they have make it is allowed to know.  The reason we have it in the kite hobby is all thanks to Shanti.   Nasa went to shanti for help developing the threads and rope they wanted from their fiber and in exchange Shanti got permission to use it in kite line and started the Speedline name.

The spectra fiber and the HDPE fiber used in Dyneema line are not the same and Dyneema line is not all the same fiber itself.  I have line  from some of my cheap kites I stacked that is Dyneema brand line but some is polyester dacron and some is HDPE polyester fiber, but NONE of it is spectra. I also have some Dyneema line that looks like it is a braided nylon fiber.  IN short don't assume Dyneema line to be any particular type of fiber.

Ara if the skyline is a resonable price and easily available to you just try it.   As long as you can get 10+ wraps without binding and you don't have to equalize the line set every flight it will work.  However if its not in a premade line set then chances are its not been tried on a dual line.



Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 03, 2012, 07:03 PM
Great stuff. I was pretty much planning on buying some premade line sets simply due to a lack of confidence, but after reading through this thread and the supplied links, I think I'll just go ahead and make my own. After watching the Prism DVD again, I really want a set of 50' and 20' to practice on, and I won't have to wait for my current set to break.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Wayner on May 04, 2012, 08:13 AM
Wow Hadge.

What a tutorial!
I feel like I can now become a professional line maker   ;)   :D


Great feeling when making your own line sets. I like the option of custom lenghts, plus its a lot cheaper.   ;D


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 04, 2012, 10:41 AM
No doubt thats a huge plus! Just doing some quick math and using $38 as a base price for a #100/100' Shanti Skybond set and assuming we were making 10 equal sets...

Spectra 100# x 1000' = $120
Sleaving = $10
Winders x 10 (@$5) = $50
Straps  x 10 (@$12) = $120
--------------
$300

That total can be drastically reduced if you wanted cheaper line and didn't need separate straps for every set. And as Wayner pointed out, the customization and experience alone would be incentive enough. 

Of course, not everyone has the means to lay the money out all at once or would rather varying weights of line, but it's good to have options, regardless.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: sluggo on May 04, 2012, 11:46 AM
Just doing some quick math and using $38 as a base price for a #100/100' Shanti Skybond set and assuming we were making 10 equal sets...

Spectra 100# x 1000' = $120


I think you'll need to double the amount of line there...


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 04, 2012, 12:20 PM
Yikes! So much for "simple" math.  :-X

Hmm, maybe it's better to buy premade sets when starting out then after all?


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 04, 2012, 01:13 PM
But you don't have to use all the spool in one go!

You buy the spool and make one or two sets with different lengths (the sets, not the lines  ;) ) and you keep the rest for future and/or when one line breaks, etc...

What are you going to do with 10 sets of lines?
Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 04, 2012, 01:26 PM
I've been using this technique for years now - works great.  I don't sleeve however - I just don't see a need to and it bunches up with light weight line like 50#.   I do tie some bridle line loops for both ends and just larks head them on.  This makes it easy to adjust length after the line stretches without having to re-cut.

[url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/making_a_lineset.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/making_a_lineset.pdf[/url])


Thanks Tom.

So, although it is great to now have two very well explained techniques for making the lines, I am now put in a dilemma of having to decide which one I use?!
 ::)

Both line sets I have, which were ready made, are sleeved:
1. The lines that came with my Nexus from Prism: "65' x 90 lbs Spectra™ (19.8 m x 40.8 kg)" (which I wonder which type of Spectra they are...)
2. The lines that I got from Steve when I bought my Soul from him: "Dynamic 100% Dyneema 100lb 82ft"

And I'm happy with them being sleeved...

I think it will also depend on what my local store can provide. I think that will be the easiest way to decide.

Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ca Ike on May 04, 2012, 02:10 PM
PRism line set were at one time LPG but now I think they use excel but its still spectra


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Hadge on May 04, 2012, 02:25 PM
, I really want a set of 50' and 20' to practice on.

To be honest I would think twice about using a 20' line set with something as big as a Hypnotist especially if you are a new flier, they are really short. Problem is that while you can see what is going on ( which is probably why Prism mention using them) you have zero time to react when things go wrong or if you get a sudden gust of wind. The only time I tried them was on my UL shadow in 2-3 mph and then I only used them once. Most of the time a set of 80-100' lines of around 90/100lb will be the most useful and cover 90% of your flying.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Ca Ike on May 04, 2012, 02:45 PM
PRism only recommends 20 foot lines for practicing recoveries but IMO you don't need to go that short.  IF you want to get that close to your kite just grab the lines closer to the kite but I think its a wast of line to make a 20' set for practice on a full size kite.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 04, 2012, 02:56 PM
Yeah, recoveries is why I mentioned them. The video talks about shorter lines a whole bunch of times, I figured they were worth having. Not to mention the fact it would give me a chance to do something on these days where I can't get the kite off the ground. Oh well, that's  just my eagerness talking, I guess.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: Gamelord on May 04, 2012, 03:43 PM
When I was trying to learn a bunch of new tricks, I hacked my 75' lineset down to 40'-50'.  Not so that the tricks were easier to do or that I can see the kite better, the only reason was that the walk of shame was shorter!!! :)

Now that I am not tangling the kite lines up as much, I normally use 75' lines.  Shorter lines can be more difficult if you are not use to them.


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 04, 2012, 07:08 PM
LOL. That sounds like a good enough reason to me. As it stands, I'm gonna have iron calves come fall.  :D


Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: mikenchico on May 05, 2012, 12:00 AM
Agreed, 20' on a Hypnotist is crazy, in the wind it takes to get it in the air things will happen too fast. If you want to try something that short just for practicing ground recoveries, coin tosses etc. with then just go with some Polyester line, cut 50' off your SLK's reel, it won't miss it and you don't have to sleeve it either. Don't waste your money on Spectra because you won't fly on 20's unless your doing indoor and you're not going to fly the Hypnotist indoors. I enjoy 50's when space requires short lines, I usually use 75'-85' and I feel disconnected on anything longer, that's me, as others have posted they enjoy 100+ foot, back in the '80's I thought kites had to have 150' lines. Preferences differ and often change over time.

If you can find somebody locally who carries bulk line and will make up linesets you could get a set of quality 125's at 90 lbs, you should notice a difference with a quality set of 90 lb lines verses the 150 lb supplied with the Hypnotist. If you find you don't like 120's then cut them into a set of 75's and a set of 50's. Alternately Steve here has the Prism Modulus lines in 90 lb @ 120' (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=11), you can still get a set of 74's and 48's out of that if you don't like the 120's or Kent (Gamelord) at 'A Wind of Change', one of the forum sponsors linked on the right usually carries a selection of bulk line and will make you set of whatever you want.




Title: Re: Lines, lines, lines... ?!?!
Post by: KSC on May 05, 2012, 06:44 AM
...then just go with some Polyester line...

Well, I'll be damned. Talk about linear thinking. I totally never even considered this.  :-[

That would be perfect. Yesterday I tried just using 30' or so while leaving the rest on the winder behind me, but I kept getting tangled up in it.

As far as #90 set of lines go, I think may help me get the Hypno off the ground. I swear, I must be right on the cusp of it's window. It was 7mph yesterday, I had the bridal set to forgiving and it seemed like it wanted to go, but just couldn't get there.