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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Single Line Kites => Topic started by: Ca Ike on May 16, 2012, 10:09 PM



Title: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on May 16, 2012, 10:09 PM
So lately I've been tinkering with different cad programs for various reasons and one of course was kite designs.  I've had a few design ideas floating around in my head as well as some existing designs I'd like to do different scales of and a couple early 80's kites I saw demoed that I don't think ever saw production much if at all that I'd like to try and recreate.

After a couple months of learning programs, planning and a few prototypes, I've got my first SLK design built.  ITs a 10 foot span, dual wing, box keel delta configuration and a simple panel layout for now.  Actually 2 versions with slightly different wing configurations but I haven't built the second version.  IT has a very high flight angle and should make for a decent lifter which is one of the design goals.  I was lucky enough to have Ron Gibian show up at our fly when I brought out the first prototype and his input was a big help in figuring out the changes to the final versions.  Thank you Ron.

Here's a pic and a couple vids.  THe main testing of the prototype was done in my back yard (so I could hack n patch in changes quickly) in the worst wind conditions you could get.  Gusty, swirly, bumpy and full of more holes than window screen.  I'll call this first version the Venturi (name suggested by the Godfather himself :P)

(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7074/7113784725_3f3b6310fd.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ca_ike/7113784725/)
SLK (http://www.flickr.com/photos/ca_ike/7113784725/#) by Ca Ike (http://www.flickr.com/people/ca_ike/), on Flickr

SLK (http://vimeo.com/41216599)

Slk with tail on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/42310103)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: PUZZLE on May 16, 2012, 10:49 PM
looks very cool


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 17, 2012, 02:38 AM
Excellent Ca Ike!!!

It is really beautiful!  :)   :)   :)
I want one!   :P

One comment. Since its underlying design is based on a box kite, I think it would be good to have the box split into three parts with top and bottom having the box structure and the middle one "missing"; i.e. have a central hole.
The reason is that this is what makes box kites have greater lift strength.
What do you think?

Apart from that, are you going to make the plans public for others to build one   ;D   :P

Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on May 17, 2012, 03:46 AM
Very cool...I would love to see some detail pictures..... what does the bridle attach to? Keels?

I would disagree with  ara said....I like the look of the solid back...

Very reminiscent of a pair of docked sport kites....

Well done...well done...


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: KaoS on May 17, 2012, 04:22 AM
Very cool...I would love to see some detail pictures..... what does the bridle attach to? Keels?

It looks like the centre is two triangular tunnels (sort of like a double dunton taylor), and the bridles attach to each keel front.  Is that how you have it Anthony?


I would disagree with  ara said....I like the look of the solid back...


Me too, I think the solid centre looks just right.  Nice job


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: ghfisanotti on May 17, 2012, 05:12 AM
It looks great! congratulations! it seems like a SLK i'd like to own.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 17, 2012, 05:32 AM
Hi,

OK, ok, that's two against one...  :(  ->  ;)

Perhaps I didn't explain it well. I would leave the solid back but split the box in the front. It's just a matter of circulating air...
There is more opportunity for air to enter the box and therefore generate more lift.
But perhaps some aerodynamics expert would still argue against this...

In any case, not only are the looks great as it is, but it seems to fly really nicely. I was just proposing a possible efficiency enhancement.

Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Tmadz on May 17, 2012, 06:15 AM
That is a cool looking kite and I think the panel design looks great. Sometimes the best designs are the simplest. I like the color selection as well. It pulls the eye towards the middle and top of the kite making it look larger than an already considerable 10 feet.

How do you determine where the bridle points go?

I bet it pulls pretty good when you get it into some open wind.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Wayner on May 17, 2012, 06:50 AM
Great looking kite.

When are you going into production  ;D


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on May 17, 2012, 07:35 AM
Great looking kite.

When are you going into production  ;D
I agree...just replace the red with a good purple and i would take one now...the design is a neat one....


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: mikenchico on May 17, 2012, 02:57 PM
Looks great Anthony

Adding lift logically sounds like a good thing, but it isn't always. Adding lift to the rear of the kite by opening the keel could introduce some instability, as designed the triangular keel acts like a deep V Boat bottom cutting through the choppy air (air is a liquid like water) and increasing straight line stability. The keel is very reminiscent of a Dunton Taylor and they aren't called Rocket Kites for nothing, they'll nearly always win reel out contests and fly at very high angles. I might also detect a bit of influence from the Dan Leigh Little Bear Delta (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=494) in the shape of the delta wings. Good company to keep on both counts.

But then Ara I've built a Double Delta Conyne which was simply two kites sharing the keel spars, although unlike Anthony's the kites were spaced apart from each other the same distance as the break in a single keel, it was rock steady so I may be full of hot air above.



Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on May 17, 2012, 03:08 PM
i know that this one pulls like a truck:
(http://www.shannonkites.com/beta/shannonkites/images/main/kitephotos/delta/stackdc1.jpg)
info here on Kevin Shannon's website (http://www.shannonkites.com/delta.htm)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on May 17, 2012, 04:12 PM
Excellent Ca Ike!!!

It is really beautiful!  :)   :)   :)
I want one!   :P

One comment. Since its underlying design is based on a box kite, I think it would be good to have the box split into three parts with top and bottom having the box structure and the middle one "missing"; i.e. have a central hole.
The reason is that this is what makes box kites have greater lift strength.
What do you think?


Apart from that, are you going to make the plans public for others to build one   ;D   :P

Cheers,

N.
  From what I found it doesn't affect lift much at all but makes a big difference on pull because of the difference in sail area.  THe open sections of standard box kites can introduces turbulence and act like a vent reducing pull as well as affecting flight angle.  The advantage of the separate sections is the kite will self adjust to different wind speed by changing AOA.  THe same fill affect of open sections can be done by vent holes in the bottom panels if you need to get more air into the center

Very cool...I would love to see some detail pictures..... what does the bridle attach to? Keels?


It looks like the centre is two triangular tunnels (sort of like a double dunton taylor), and the bridles attach to each keel front.  Is that how you have it Anthony?


I would disagree with  ara said....I like the look of the solid back...



Me too, I think the solid centre looks just right.  Nice job

The keel is a 4 sided trapezoid shape with the bottom spars outside instead of inside the box giving similar lift and stability characteristics to sled kites (and getting the airplane fuselage look I wanted too:) )

Looks great Anthony

Adding lift logically sounds like a good thing, but it isn't always. Adding lift to the rear of the kite by opening the keel could introduce some instability, as designed the triangular keel acts like a deep V Boat bottom cutting through the choppy air (air is a liquid like water) and increasing straight line stability. The keel is very reminiscent of a Dunton Taylor and they aren't called Rocket Kites for nothing, they'll nearly always win reel out contests and fly at very high angles. I might also detect a bit of influence from the Dan Leigh Little Bear Delta ([url]http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=494[/url]) in the shape of the delta wings. Good company to keep on both counts.

But then Ara I've built a Double Delta Conyne which was simply two kites sharing the keel spars, although unlike Anthony's the kites were spaced apart from each other the same distance as the break in a single keel, it was rock steady so I may be full of hot air above.


YOur partly right MIke.  THe triangle box keel is inherently unstable on its own and can warp unevenly (why conynes love to dive to one side in gusty winds and don't recover easily) so the wings have to provide a lot of the stability.  Adding lift to the rear changes the AoA and if too much lift is added you get a really unstable lift coefficient that affected by even the smallest bump in the wind due to skimming on top instead of cutting through the wind.  Its not an easy balance.

I have some minor changes to make for build reasons and need to get one built thats not "Quilted" with so many patched in pieces and crooked lines.  I must have cut and changed the keel dimensions 10 times to get the right balance. Once that is done I'll decide what I'm going to do with the design.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: DD on May 17, 2012, 04:18 PM
Anyone have a link to the Venturi order page?
How about a colorizer?
what's the wind range rated at?
is there an ul model?

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on May 17, 2012, 04:22 PM
THanks for the compliments guys :)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on May 17, 2012, 04:49 PM
What is the frame?  Come on man spill the details!!!!


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on May 18, 2012, 01:05 AM
What is the frame?  Come on man spill the details!!!!

WHen I complete the first production quality build I will post the specs and better pics.  I just used 3/8 wood in the proto and fabric shop uncoated RSN just to stay cheap and test the design.  Obviously a better frame and better cloth will change the wind range and lift power.  Even with the low grade heavy nylon  and high flex test frame I snapped 150# dacron line in the 10-12 mph winds I had in the vid with the tail.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ara Ararauna on May 18, 2012, 02:18 PM
Wow! This has been a great kite design and aerodynamics lesson!
It's great.
Thanks for commenting on my suggestion in such a serious and scientific way.
It is really great being able to learn from you all.
Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on June 01, 2012, 12:14 AM
There is a bit of an issue getting the cloth I want to use and a couple other things I have to do before I can actually start making these.  IN the mean time I've been playing around with different color schemes.  It was suggested I use a bit more white so here's what I Came up with for options.  OPinions?

(http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1467/screenshot20120601at120.png) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/214/screenshot20120601at120.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: chilese on June 01, 2012, 12:47 AM
White central tunnel.

That key feature needs emphasis.

After that, it's all good.  :)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: KaoS on June 01, 2012, 02:17 AM
Stick with what you did originally.  Black tunnel, black leading edges, then colour, then grey , then white.  This will "pop" best in all skies - cloud or no cloud


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on June 01, 2012, 03:47 AM
Stick with what you did originally.  Black tunnel, black leading edges, then colour, then grey , then white.  This will "pop" best in all skies - cloud or no cloud
:) !!!


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: DWayne on June 01, 2012, 03:50 AM
Stick with what you did originally.  Black tunnel, black leading edges, then colour, then grey , then white.  This will "pop" best in all skies - cloud or no cloud

+1

Denny


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on June 01, 2012, 04:03 AM
I was watching the video with the tail again....well done...

so..what is the framing of the wings in the prototype?   It looks like the wings are flexing backwards quite a bit in that wind...if they are you might want to (and might want to anyway due to the size of this kite) bump the framing up to a .2560 or so.....

i finally realized one of the reasons i am drawn to this kite: its silhouette is reminiscent of the BMK Ichiban.....


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Tmadz on June 01, 2012, 04:41 AM
Just my 2C. I love your original design, but keep experimenting. I think you'll discover something you like just as much or more. I would be really interested if you started experimenting with curved sail pieces, like on other sport kites. BTW, I like the white tunnel and white tips with the purple and grey.

I think other people have mentioned, but I would be seriously interested in buying one of these when you get there.

BTW, what strength line did you use to fly it? It looked like 500# on the video.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on June 01, 2012, 05:00 AM
I was watching the video with the tail again....well done...

so..what is the framing of the wings in the prototype?   It looks like the wings are flexing backwards quite a bit in that wind...if they are you might want to (and might want to anyway due to the size of this kite) bump the framing up to a .2560 or so.....

i finally realized one of the reasons i am drawn to this kite: its silhouette is reminiscent of the BMK Ichiban.....
I have elements from a lot of places in the design.  Its hard to design something without being influenced by what other have done already. I actually started this with a completely different graphic in mind but I kept coming back to this same layout.  I've always likes the simple elegance of Kens layouts and a lot of what joel shultz has done so to say those two don't come through in my ideas would be a bit like saying Einstine doesn't influence other physicists.

As for the prototype, it does have a bit of cant to the wings in the design, butI just used wood dowels I had laying around so it had a lot of flex to it.  Its better with carbon rods but still has enough flex to survive 20-25 gusty winds.  The winds in the vid with the tail were average 17-20 with gust over 25.  Got to love storm front winds.

Just my 2C. I love your original design, but keep experimenting. I think you'll discover something you like just as much or more. I would be really interested if you started experimenting with curved sail pieces, like on other sport kites. BTW, I like the white tunnel and white tips with the purple and grey.

I think other people have mentioned, but I would be seriously interested in buying one of these when you get there.

BTW, what strength line did you use to fly it? It looked like 500# on the video.
IT was actually 200# line and I can tell ya it was singing pretty good.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: martijn on June 01, 2012, 05:14 AM
Stick with what you did originally.  Black tunnel, black leading edges, then colour, then grey , then white.  This will "pop" best in all skies - cloud or no cloud
:) !!!

+2 :)!


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on June 01, 2012, 08:43 AM
I was watching the video with the tail again....well done...

so..what is the framing of the wings in the prototype?   It looks like the wings are flexing backwards quite a bit in that wind...if they are you might want to (and might want to anyway due to the size of this kite) bump the framing up to a .2560 or so.....

i finally realized one of the reasons i am drawn to this kite: its silhouette is reminiscent of the BMK Ichiban.....
I have elements from a lot of places in the design.  Its hard to design something without being influenced by what other have done already. I actually started this with a completely different graphic in mind but I kept coming back to this same layout.  I've always likes the simple elegance of Kens layouts and a lot of what joel shultz has done so to say those two don't come through in my ideas would be a bit like saying Einstine doesn't influence other physicists.

As for the prototype, it does have a bit of cant to the wings in the design, butI just used wood dowels I had laying around so it had a lot of flex to it.  Its better with carbon rods but still has enough flex to survive 20-25 gusty winds.  The winds in the vid with the tail were average 17-20 with gust over 25.  Got to love storm front winds.

ahh..
i forgot that you had said it was wood...
dang that was a bit of wind too.

still want to see the side view of the keels!

designs always subtly influence new designs...sometimes they they outright influence designs too...and that is part of the process...take ideas you learn from other sources and make your own....Last fall I had Robert Brasington stay with me for a few days and we put on a two day workshop.....some of the participants wanted to take the templates that he made for the kites so they could make more.   He agreed as the templates were quite worn out, but pointed out that it is fine for people to make more of the same kite but what he expected was for them to take the designs that they made and use them to further each person's own ideas.....it was wonderful to hear...

I look forward to seeing what other designs you have come with as well!

 


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: kwwilson on June 16, 2012, 09:15 PM
Great looking. Good job! kw


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Fore Check on June 21, 2012, 03:42 AM
 8)

Great stuff - looks great!  I imagine you will see a very notice-able increase in performance with coated kite cloth and a carbon (or wrapped carbon) frame.

*Love* drawing up and building my own stuff!  Careful - it's quite addictive...   :D


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Fore Check on June 21, 2012, 03:48 AM
A couple of questions after re-reading some:

What changes did El Ronnie-O suggest to you? 

Did you use any mathematical design criteria for the delta wings, spreader location, leading edge spars, etc?


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on June 21, 2012, 02:07 PM
A couple of questions after re-reading some:

What changes did El Ronnie-O suggest to you? 

Did you use any mathematical design criteria for the delta wings, spreader location, leading edge spars, etc?
Most of Ron's help was in evaluating the flight behavior and a few build technique ideas.  He showed me several things to watch as it flies that I didn't think to look at that led me to adjust the dimensions and framing to get the balance right.  How it glides backwards, how to figure out the right bridle dimensions ,some of the ideas I took from dual lines that weren't necessary and actually complicates the build.  Nothing really specific on the design itself except for framing options.  I wasn't even sure the design would fly until he hopped in and helped get it up the first time.

I did use some basic rules of thumb starting out though.  SPreaders 15-20% from the nose end of the wings along the spine, rear wing 50-75% smaller than the main wing (came from Sauls Barrage kite and the cody) and adjust from there.  Pulled in ideas from all over to come  up with a rough formula for keel length x width vs wing size, wing dihedral limits and a few other things.  AS far as wing shape i just wanted to get kind of a fighter jet outline and the top profile of the f-22 raptor was my inspiration and I tweaked the look from there.  I did come up with a way to actually make the wing angle "active" and change with the wind speed and sail pressure instead of just relying on the flex in the rods.

WHen it comes to SLK's really the only limit is your imagination.  I've build a lot of SLK's over the years but all simple derivatives of diamonds, standard deltas, sleds or box kites.  THis is my first one combining different elements and a take on the "box delta" configuration.  All my patterns were measured and drawn out by hand since I still have a lot to learn about how to turn a 3d cad into a flat template.


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Fore Check on June 21, 2012, 05:02 PM
You got it right:  Your imagination really is the only limit.  The rest is just details.   :D

Here's a link to an album of kites that I've built - including quite a few of "my own concoctions" ( ;) ):

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1038308358446.2006834.1247630423&type=3&l=ca318ef3f7 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1038308358446.2006834.1247630423&type=3&l=ca318ef3f7)

 8)

Thanks with the info on the delta - I have a couple of delta derivatives on the drawing board myself, and I was kinda curious as to how important it is/was to adhere to the tested relationships published by Dan Leigh as you veer away from a "standard" delta design (talking in terms of leading edge spar length, spreader location, etc)


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Ca Ike on June 21, 2012, 05:51 PM
You got it right:  Your imagination really is the only limit.  The rest is just details.   :D

Here's a link to an album of kites that I've built - including quite a few of "my own concoctions" ( ;) ):

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1038308358446.2006834.1247630423&type=3&l=ca318ef3f7 (https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1038308358446.2006834.1247630423&type=3&l=ca318ef3f7)

 8)

Thanks with the info on the delta - I have a couple of delta derivatives on the drawing board myself, and I was kinda curious as to how important it is/was to adhere to the tested relationships published by Dan Leigh as you veer away from a "standard" delta design (talking in terms of leading edge spar length, spreader location, etc)

Yea I've seen alot of your work.  I love that sunburst color sauls barrage kite variation you did.  THere are some things you have to adhere to but its variable depending on how active or stable you want it. long and narrow is more stable than short and narrow, short and narrow with lots of wing glides well but won't park unless you have tons of tail, etc


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: thief on September 11, 2012, 07:13 AM
Did the batch of these come out????? any more pix yet?


Title: Re: My own concoction
Post by: Desertflier on September 11, 2012, 08:40 AM
Wow! Fore Check, those are some really nice looking kites.  ;)