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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: vigli on June 07, 2012, 08:06 AM



Title: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on June 07, 2012, 08:06 AM
hi!
Any advice for SUL kite cascade? I can do it with standard kite but I have problem with my hand work on SUL kite.
Thanks


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: zippy8 on June 07, 2012, 08:25 AM
Any advice for SUL kite cascade? I can do it with standard kite but I have problem with my hand work on SUL kite.
  • Slow down. SULs rarely enjoy being rushed.
  • A Standard will use its own momentum to go through the trick, an SUL will glide through it.
  • Longer, slower movements and inputs. Forget the "pop".
  • If you need to, walk to the kite to keep it depowered but only if needed.

HTH

Mike.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: tpatter on June 07, 2012, 11:38 AM
What he said!  :)

One thing that seems obvious, but perhaps isn't is that this is all much easier in very little wind.   Once the wind picks up (and for many SULs it will not take much), the kite is easily over-powered making tricks that rely on 'float' or 'mass' much more difficult with a super light weight kite.

As an example, I enjoy flying my 4D, but only in less than 2 mph.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: lylenc on June 07, 2012, 01:03 PM
The SUL may need more or less flare in the middle of the cascade than what you are used to doing on your standard kite. As mentioned above, use a slower pull rather than a pop so you don't jerk the kite out of the air.

In case you are doing one-pop cascades on the standard (that's the way I started), you'll most likely need to use the two-pop cascade method on the SUL in the lighter winds. The first "pop" brings the top wing down and rotates the nose away to somewhere near a flare position, second "pop" brings opposite wing up to top position with nose pointing in opposite direction from the start of the cascade.

PS: Once you figure out the cascade on the SUL, you can vary the flare in a larger range to rise, fall, or stay steady level. Also, you can make the first "pop" extra hard and hold the flare extra long in order to glide down wind and regain ground lost during previous tricks' footwork.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on June 07, 2012, 11:12 PM
Thanks a lot for inputs.
Need to try again, again....
With SUL I'm total bigginer in cascade.
 ::)  ???
Momentum (inercia)  and weight on standard kite give so much help...

Did You have same problem...?
To trick kite in cascade easy with standard and to be bigginer in cascade with  SUL kite ?
Is that normal situation for kite flyer...


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: mikenchico on June 08, 2012, 01:40 AM
It's normal to have to make timing and technique adjustments between different kites or even the same kite in different versions. A beginner will certainly struggle more with this especially if they have experience with only one other kite like it sounds like you do. Your "Muscle Memory" is ingrained for your Sea Devil Standard. Take the above advise and work it out, nobody said the SDUL can't cascade so it's in there. Once you have it then you'll have learned to adapt that "Muscle Memory" to different kites and you've made another step forward.

I'll add you may need to take a step backwards, on my standards when I'm flying under their comfort range the second "Pop" finds slack line, rather then walking forward in the cascade I have to walk backwards. Experiment.



Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on June 08, 2012, 01:57 AM
 yes...muscule memory...

I don't know how SD SUL would perform FORM ME but problem is in general my not so good SUL stile.
But I think SD SUL would be closer in finnesse to SD stand. then Ferless SUL.

 SD stand.- How easy is cascade on it. Unbelivable....

 I have to work on Fearless SUL cascade....
Interesting -Fearless SUL on Youtube perform cascade as a standard kite, only the name of the video telling me it is a SUL kite-It is just a little slower.

Wind is not so good these days here-turbulent, so I can't relax in smooth wind with SUL kite.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on July 15, 2012, 11:49 AM
OK
I tryed cascade but I have question connect with still problem.
I start cascade with little bit more aggressive axle-with right hand.
I run in cascade but only two evoultions.
When I need to go in the third evolution with right hand there start my problem:
I hit kite with a right hand and kite start to rotate and stop in position with no way out to continue cascade:
It stop in vertical flare (right wing hi up and all kite in flare) :'(
Also I have a lot of trouble with wind, very low. Maybe little more wind would help a lot.
Any advice for SUL cascade...\thx
boris
PS
Also I notice second pop during cascade is very hard for me to use on SUL. With standard kite second pop is very important for me to contiue cascade but on SUL I can't use second pop. How much You use second pop during SUL cascade?


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Ca Ike on July 15, 2012, 12:17 PM
I always do 2 input cascades.  The 2nd input isn't a pop but a pull.  YOu need to pull the wing out of the flare to get nice smooth half axel sections.  The more pop you have in the 2nd input the faster the kite goes tail up.  If the kite is over flaring after the first couple half axels then your hitting your inputs too hard or not giving enough off hand slack.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on July 15, 2012, 12:37 PM
thanks Ca Ike
yes I know second pull is important . I know that from standard kite cascade. But for sul...second pull is different story -FOR ME offcourse.....


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Ca Ike on July 15, 2012, 12:50 PM
Just remember be it standard, ul, sul or vented its still a "pull".  Common mistake is to do a double pop input inbetween half axels when it should be a pop, pull, pop, pull.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Will Sturdy on July 15, 2012, 01:07 PM
Especially with ULs/SULs a third little pull to help the flatspin rotation go around can help a lot.

Starting from flight left to right my inputs are generally R L R L R L..... (bold for harder pop)
For most kites these inputs are approximately evenly spaced. Even if a two pop cascade is possible, using three pops makes things look better and gives the pilot more control.

YMMV, it's just another technique  ;)


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on July 15, 2012, 03:28 PM
Will S
I didn't understand Your text very well:
Starting from flight left to right my inputs are generally R L R L R L..... (bold for harder pop)

If You starting from left to right then It should be ( I gess) :
 L R R L L R R L L R
BOLD in text pop
UNBOLD in text pull

I'm I correct or I'm wrong. Sorry not understand Your example. Can You please re-chek it again.
thanks
boris


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Will Sturdy on July 15, 2012, 04:11 PM
I may be using an extra setup pop at the start of the cascade.
So if I'm flying from the left edge of the window towards the right and I start a cascade, my first input would be a light setup pop/pull with the right and then a larger pop with the left

So with a bit more explanation:
R - setup pull on the low wing
L - large pop to get the kite rotating
R  - slight pull after the nose passes dead away to help the kite around
L - low wing setup pull
R - large pop to start the rotation
L - pull to help the kite around
etc...


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Ken Bour on July 15, 2012, 04:33 PM
Will S
If You starting from left to right then It should be ( I gess) :
 L R R L L R R L L R
BOLD in text pop
UNBOLD in text pull

Damn! There's hope for me yet! I've been a jazz drummer for 50 years. If we can code all these kite "tricks" as rudiments, I might be able to handle it! This one's in 5/4 with unusual accents and sticking, but I can at least understand it! :P

Ken


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: ko on July 15, 2012, 04:42 PM
+1 with Will The only difference I find with the Tattoo (pretty much a fearless sul) is it is way easy to rotate too far making it tough to get it headed back. otherwise It does them gracefully and easily slow and flat I gave up on one pop cascades early on.(thanx Marco)


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: red sweater on July 15, 2012, 06:52 PM
Will S
If You starting from left to right then It should be ( I gess) :
 L R R L L R R L L R
BOLD in text pop
UNBOLD in text pull

Damn! There's hope for me yet! I've been a jazz drummer for 50 years. If we can code all these kite "tricks" as rudiments, I might be able to handle it! This one's in 5/4 with unusual accents and sticking, but I can at least understand it! :P

Ken
Well, this is coming from someone who hasn't done a cascade yet, but thinks he has the gist...no, it's not 5/4. It's normal ol' 4/4, with accents evenly spaced. Call the first pop a pickup note, and the repeating pattern becomes very clear. Two hits with each hand (well, a pull then a hard pop, as described earlier), the second being stronger. Of course, that's assuming even spacing, which might not be the case. Probably depends on the kite, the wind, etc. All the usual variables.

Now I just need to find some time (and smooth wind) to go try it.


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: vigli on July 16, 2012, 07:22 AM
thanks friends


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: Ken Bour on July 19, 2012, 09:59 AM
Will S
If You starting from left to right then It should be ( I gess) :
 L R R L L R R L L R
BOLD in text pop
UNBOLD in text pull

Damn! There's hope for me yet! I've been a jazz drummer for 50 years. If we can code all these kite "tricks" as rudiments, I might be able to handle it! This one's in 5/4 with unusual accents and sticking, but I can at least understand it! :P

Ken
Well, this is coming from someone who hasn't done a cascade yet, but thinks he has the gist...no, it's not 5/4. It's normal ol' 4/4, with accents evenly spaced. Call the first pop a pickup note, and the repeating pattern becomes very clear. Two hits with each hand (well, a pull then a hard pop, as described earlier), the second being stronger. Of course, that's assuming even spacing, which might not be the case. Probably depends on the kite, the wind, etc. All the usual variables.

Now I just need to find some time (and smooth wind) to go try it.

I see, it's a double-stroke roll (R R L L) preceded by a pop to get the kite rotating?

I am intrigued by the possibility of developing something similar to what guitarists call a tablature. It could have a couple of lines, one for Right and one for Left plus, maybe, a kite orientation (O). Using some conventions for <push>, <tug>, <pop>, <pull>, <snap>, <stall>, (others?), it might be possible to codify the movements crisply for every trick in the book - even simultaneous hand movements. Thinking about the above Cascade example and using the terminology already provided (not that I'm advocating it), here's what I am envisioning as a thought-provoker:

Trick: Cascade (Cd)
O: Fly L > R
R: |-----|--P--T--|--------|--P--T--|--------|--P--|
L: |--T--|--------|--P--T--|--------|--P--T--|-----|

Legend:
P = pull
T = tug or pop (equivalent?)

I grant that lotsa work would be needed to flesh out the "standard" movements (pop vs. tug vs. pull) and also whether there should be modifiers (similar to accents in music) like "gentle push," "sharp tug," and the like. Perhaps other directions need to be incorporated such as what key/time signatures do in music. Still, it seems theoretically achievable and, if it could be done, imaging having plastic-coated index cards with each trick, which could be organized into a deck. The cards could be shuffled to produce routines or patterns ... oh, the possibilities! ???

If this idea has merit, I would be happy to start another thread and we can explore it. If it's already been done (probably), maybe someone can provide a link. I'm prepared that someone will claim it is impossible (due to varying wind conditions, kite designs, etc.), but aren't guitars (acoustic, electric) and guitarists (long- vs. short-fingered) also different from each other in substantive ways -- yet they manage to produce music from a common tablature?

Have at it ladies and gents... ;D

Ken


Title: Re: SUL KITE cascade
Post by: tpatter on July 19, 2012, 11:26 AM
I think this is a great idea.

One suggestion would be to go vertically, so the left/right is on the left/right.

I think its a good idea and you should explore it more. 

A few others:
- I think we need notations for pop, pull, lift.  For example, to me, the input to pull the wing up during the cascade is a lift, not a pop.  I would also say that the input during a flick-flack to come back from the nose away is a two-hand lift.  A pop will not work well there on most kites.

- Maybe also have a notation for slack (S) to indicate that hand should be applying no tension.  When new flyers are learning tricks, I see this lack of slack on the off-hand as one of the most common mistakes.


Great idea!
-Tom