GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: chilese on June 07, 2012, 05:56 PM



Title: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 07, 2012, 05:56 PM
Had a brief chat with one of the excellent kitebuilders on the Forum.

With the thread of older Prism designs in mind we came up with an

idea for a project kite.

1 Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight.

2 New panel layout, just for variety.

3 Fly it and see if newer sticks/material/whatever improves on an
     already amazing design.

4 Don't sell the kite.

5 At any rate, it would be a great "what if" sort of experiment.

I even came up with the name. Which is a good contribution, because
my sewing skills suck.

RELIXIR

I'm open to panel layout suggestions or your thoughts on the subject.  :)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-PuF9IZB_134/S11lKdntZYI/AAAAAAAABeY/oHOSfeWPi04/s800/36584%2520Elixir%2520Group%2520Shoot.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2008Kites#5430607956102964610)



Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 07, 2012, 07:06 PM
I thought the noodley leading edges were a feature.

Along with the mylar...

It's.......so.........shiiii.....nyyyyyyy......... (can't.....look......a...way....)  ???
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-VSFTmlEukY0/TAoC29W5zsI/AAAAAAAAbsw/reGa4mBaN6s/s800/9684%2520Elixir.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2010Kites#5479195039856447170)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 07, 2012, 07:28 PM
You guys should go for it. Sounds like a good project.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Tmadz on June 07, 2012, 07:34 PM
Can you do the spectrum with the Mylar or the citrus(?) with black panels in place of the Mylar?


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 07, 2012, 07:50 PM
1 Duplicate the <insert kite name here> in size, framing, weight.
So that's what a slippery slope looks like.  :-[

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 07, 2012, 08:13 PM
Awwwww Mikey, give the kids something to talk about. Would you rather see another 2.2m N look-alike?  ::)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: cerfvoliste on June 07, 2012, 08:15 PM
I am so honored.... to have stood in that picture. Thank you John.
CV


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Wayner on June 07, 2012, 08:23 PM
The project sounds like fun.

Hope Mark at Prism would support your idea.



Title: Re: Re: Re: Relixir
Post by: DD on June 07, 2012, 08:31 PM
First changes: drop the Mylar and noodley leading edges.
Yes less noodley would be good


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 07, 2012, 10:57 PM
Awwwww Mikey, give the kids something to talk about.
If you really want a new Elixir then either get Prism to make them, get Prism to make the plans available in some way or get Prism to give you their blessing.

If Prism don't bite for any of these then simply banging out your own copy.... well, do I have to spell it out ?



 ???


What is the world coming to that I'm the one defending Prism's IP ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: sluggo on June 07, 2012, 11:25 PM
What is the world coming to that I'm the one defending Prism's IP ?

Just  to play devil's advocate... Are you talking about formal IP (copyright, trademark, patent), or an informal "not nice to potentially deprive a company of revenue" sort of thing? (or something else?) If the former, what specific IP is being infringed? If the latter, where is the loss of revenue occurring because of this specific project?

I don't put much stock in slippery slope arguments -- I think you to draw the line somewhere, and allow someone to slide down the slippery slope until they cross it.

But mostly I'm curious of other people's opinions because I think this thread raises some interesting questions.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 07, 2012, 11:43 PM
Just  to play devil's advocate... Are you talking about formal IP (copyright, trademark, patent), or an informal "not nice to potentially deprive a company of revenue" sort of thing? (or something else?)

Frankly, both.

Quote
If the former, what specific IP is being infringed?

Intellectual property (IP) refers to creations of the mind: inventions, literary and artistic works, and symbols, names, images, and designs used in commerce. - WIPO (http://www.wipo.int/about-ip/en/)

I am going to go with designs used in commerce.

Quote
If the latter, where is the loss of revenue occurring because of this specific project?

Almost certainly nowhere. But that isn't relevant, legally or morally but especially legally.

Quote
I don't put much stock in slippery slope arguments

What is being discussed is copying a kite. Thus far the designer hasn't been asked to offer an opinion on the matter. The kite is difficult to come by for reasons. Would different reasons (ie; too expensive) lead to different excuses why it's OK to do ?

Quote
But mostly I'm curious of other people's opinions because I think this thread raises some interesting questions.

It does. I am always saddened when a kite design dies and I'd much rather it be allowed to live on somehow but most kite makers/manufacturers just seem to consign them to the history books.

I'd be delighted to see new Elixirs or RElixirs in the air but my delight does not mean anyone should just dive ahead and do it.

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: mikenchico on June 08, 2012, 01:11 AM
Have to agree with Mike here and it is clearly stated in the heading for this section

Quote
A place for you "do it yourself''ers" to discuss your favorite techniques. Please note... GWTW does not support nor approve of the copying of existing kite designs.

and it thus goes against the wishes of "The Forum", doesn't matter what arguments you want to make, it doesn't belong here.

At least not until Mark Reed gives his permission for the experiment.

Sure changing the panel layout and materials make the kite somewhat different, not selling it lessens the argument for deprivation of income except for the one kite and getting rid of the "Noodly" leading edges will totally change the character of the kite.

But there's this   :( 


1 Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight.




Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 08, 2012, 01:41 AM
Awwwww Mikey, give the kids something to talk about.
If you really want a new Elixir then either get Prism to make them, get Prism to make the plans available in some way or get Prism to give you their blessing.

If Prism don't bite for any of these then simply banging out your own copy.... well, do I have to spell it out ?



 ???


What is the world coming to that I'm the one defending Prism's IP ?

Mike.
Being the other half of that conversation, a long time prism kite flyer and a fan of the older prisms (just something about the way they fly) I like the idea.  IT has been said on more than one occasion that the elixir was one kite that should have been looked at for an update.  If take on this project it will be strictly a 1 off experiment not for sale

That being said, and out of respect for Mark and the original team I would talk to them before actually building one.  Nothing wrong in dreaming up an idea and doing some concept drawings. Many new ideas and product improvements have started this way but MR Emery is right. IT would be the right thing to do to present the concept, once through planning, to Mark for his permission to proceed with a build of an exact copy(sail shape etc even with a different panel layout and framing).

For the time being this is just and idea.


 


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: RobB on June 08, 2012, 03:58 AM
I see nothing wrong with doing this as a personal project. There was nothing mentioned about the kite being produced and sold to others. It sounds like a personal challenge that will end up with a new 'Lix copy that cost $120+ in materials and $500+ in labor. When you could buy a used real deal Prism Elixir for the same cost as the materials... This isn't the same thing as the Chinese knock-off kites that are cheap copies of current designs that are made for profit.

I think if Prism isn't going to produce its classic designs 'ever again', then maybe they should be released to a third party boutique maker (who might pay a vig to Prism), or to the public like the other designs that are available to individual kite makers. That might be a nice way for Prism to thank the kite community for putting them where they are today.

I've always thought it would be interesting to see what could be done with the Elixir to modernize it, like the Gemini has evolved over it's lifespan.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Tmadz on June 08, 2012, 05:39 AM
It was stated clearly in one of the conditions, by Jon, that it's an experiment and not for sale. Everyone wants to see if this would work, but it would great to get Marks ok (or at least acknowledge not to sue).


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 08, 2012, 06:35 AM
Lets not take this stuff too seriously.  ::)

No one is going to care if some kiter copies an old kite design for his personal use.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: thief on June 08, 2012, 07:54 AM
Lets not take this stuff too seriously.  ::)

No one is going to care if some kiter copies an old kite design for his personal use.
the GWTW forum does by the piece Zippy quoted above......


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 08, 2012, 11:12 AM
I don't think that you'll be lonely on that Slippery Slopeİ.
Misogyny loves company.

Quote
Mock Revolution all you want...
I can, I shall and I have an almost unblemished record of doing so ;D

Returning, if I may, to the original post.... is it not at least common courtesy to ask the designer if you may copy his kite ? Perhaps it may be possible to get the design into circulation again that way rather than figuratively picking his pocket.

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Allen Carter on June 08, 2012, 12:36 PM
Why not just mod a real Elixir? A whole lot cheaper than making a copy.

I don't know what you'll get out of all this, though. Back then Mark spent a ton of time designing and testing. The 'Lix was the result of tons of compromises, but by most accounts the right compromises. People did mod them, but the consensus usually was that Mark got it right overall.

Materials haven't changed at all, There are some different sticks, but nothing radically different unless you want to buy Aerostuff or something. Nitros would replace the GForce sticks for stiffness, but be a tad heaver. Other than that, tapered Skyshark PTs are pretty much the same as then. Small differences.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: indigo_wolf on June 08, 2012, 02:58 PM
Why not just mod a real Elixir? A whole lot cheaper than making a copy.

Sort of like trying to restore an old car or motorcycle.  First you have to find a salvageable original.  Not impossible, but gets harder as the years  march on.

I have never seen a Ducati Diana, PBSK Centurion or Blackbird Samurai in person.

For some, I expect the same holds true for the Elixir.

FWIW: Even for personal use, I think I would want a "tip of the hat".... or even a wink and a nod  ;)  from Mark.

ATB,
Sam



Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 08, 2012, 03:34 PM

FWIW: Even for personal use, I think I would want a "tip of the hat".... or even a wink and a nod  ;)  from Mark.

ATB,
Sam



I seriously doubt Mark would care if someone made their own Elixir. 


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Rx8doc on June 08, 2012, 03:55 PM
I am surprised they are not up for sale on Ebay, out of China all ready 8)
Title to Ebay auction: Reary it is a rear Relixir it has a Rism tag on it. ok my apologies to anyone offended. :D

I screwed up a Blue Moon workshop Muse so bad that Ken asked me to burn it, so I am out.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 08, 2012, 04:43 PM

FWIW: Even for personal use, I think I would want a "tip of the hat".... or even a wink and a nod  ;)  from Mark.

ATB,
Sam



I seriously doubt Mark would care if someone made their own Elixir. 

I think John knows Mark better than anyone that has posted to this thread.........I think the tip of the hat would be acknowledged simply by trying to reproduce the kite for your own use.
"For your own use" pretty much takes the aforementioned copyrighted infringements out of it, IMO.  How many people have built their own Revs strictly because they are very simple to reproduce? If you have one or access to it, then you have your template.  Building the RELIXIR would be quite a challenge unless you were a very competent builder and I doubt there would be much market for an Elixir at that price.

Jim


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: KaoS on June 08, 2012, 05:20 PM

I have never seen a Ducati Diana...

I have!  It was lovely ;D


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Allen Carter on June 08, 2012, 07:50 PM
There are a lot of Elixers out there. The last two I bought were under $200 each. Even if one was $300+ it would be cheaper than building your own, considering the amount of time that would go into it.

I really don't know what the goal is here. I doubt you could improve on the balance and trickability. Why even try to improve the flight characteristics? This is not a flyers kite, it's a trick kite. To improve any of the characteristics of this kite in any substantial way you'd have to change the sail shape. Then it's not an Elixer copy so who cares?


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: DD on June 08, 2012, 08:30 PM
what year was the elixir introduced? what year did it cease production?
I dont know that you would gain alot in updating it. Less noodly maybe
what would you pay for a "new" model?


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 08, 2012, 08:52 PM
I have a lix dated 2000.  I think they stopped in 2001 or there about.  THere really isn't much I can see to update except framing and panel layout.  Add covered le fittings and stops or roll bars for more reliable yoyos.  As is pitch is fine but it doesn't like to forward pitch too well and the turtle is kind of weak.  I should have kept my prism garage sale demo lix.  DOn't really want to frankenstein my mint jungle.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 08, 2012, 09:11 PM
Comments on the Elixir variations I had:

Changed out leading edges to tapered sticks. (Whatever came in the Illusion, can't remember) I wash't good enough at flying at the time to appreciate any difference.  Those sticks are a lot easier to break, so that kind of took some of the fun out of the kite. It was nice how you could do ground work and thrash an Elixir if you felt like it.

Mark let me make a SUL Elixir. I framed it in Vapor sticks and used the lighter weight sail materials. Essentially a Vapor with a light weight Elixir sail.  I  tied a bridle similar to what was on the Gemini.  I didn't have the kite all that long before it was stolen, but it was pretty fun to fly if you were really into Elixirs. It would backspin quite well and that was unusual for a SUL kite back then. I can't remember if I could roll it up.

I framed one in 5pt's to use as a higher wind beach kite. It sucked because flying Elixir in higher winds sucks. I only like flying Elixirs in UL'ish winds.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: sluggo on June 08, 2012, 09:12 PM
"For your own use" pretty much takes the aforementioned copyrighted infringements out of it, IMO.

IANAL, but in the USA at least, I don't think so, except for some specific cases of "copying for personal use" like making copies of music recordings that you already own. More relevant is the question of whether the Relixir would be infringing any copyright in the first place.

For example, though a printed schematic for a circuit board could be copyrighted, the circuit it describes and even some specific PCB layout for that circuit are generally not themselves copyrightable, so although you couldn't duplicate the schematic either for yourself or for inclusion in your bestselling book of circuits, you can build the circuit for whatever purpose you desired without fear of consequences (unless of course you run afoul of a patent somewhere...)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 09, 2012, 01:02 AM
I have a lix dated 2000.  I think they stopped in 2001 or there about. 

They were still being sold in 2006 by stores.  Pretty sure they quit making them at the same time the Elite line went away which was 2005.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: DWayne on June 09, 2012, 03:44 AM
Rather than attempt to improve an existing kite design.........
Attempt to design an improved kite.  ;)

Denny


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 09, 2012, 03:48 AM
Rather than attempt to improve an existing kite design.........
Attempt to design an improved kite.  ;)

Denny
Already working on a few ideas :P  Each project like this I do teaches me a bit more and one design leads to a few other ideas.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Tmadz on June 09, 2012, 07:45 AM

[/quote] Already working on a few ideas :P  Each project like this I do teaches me a bit more and one design leads to a few other ideas.
[/quote]

Could you post your sail designs when you get there? Intereseted to see where you think the elixir would evolve to.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: madhabitz on June 09, 2012, 10:43 AM
I seriously doubt Mark would care if someone made their own Elixir. 

That's not for anyone but Prism to decide. The property belongs to them. Full stop.

Aside from the legalities, if you think about it you'd be putting Mark between a rock and a hard place. The kiting community is a small one. Many consider him a friend and a good guy. If he protests someone doing this, he comes off the bad guy, a hard case, a jerk... whatever. If he grins'n bears it, which he almost has to do to keep the good will, it could come back to bite him in the butt at worst or just plain create hard feelings on his end.

"For your own use" pretty much takes the aforementioned copyrighted infringements out of it, IMO.

IANAL, but in the USA at least, I don't think so, except for some specific cases of "copying for personal use" like making copies of music recordings that you already own. More relevant is the question of whether the Relixir would be infringing any copyright in the first place.

I guess you can copy for your own use, but the minute you let someone else have a copy, then you've infringed. Heh.... had to look up "IANAL." I'm gonna claim that too.  ;D

Having said all of that:  it *would* be really fun for the OP to approach Mark with his idea and have him jump aboard (figuratively or otherwise) the project. You guys could set up some guidelines, PRISM could back the project up with support in various ways, they could have an article or three on their website, etc. Lots of possibilities.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: indigo_wolf on June 09, 2012, 11:05 AM
Having said all of that:  it *would* be really fun for the OP to approach Mark with his idea and have him jump aboard (figuratively or otherwise) the project. You guys could set up some guidelines, PRISM could back the project up with support in various ways, they could have an article or three on their website, etc. Lots of possibilities.


This is a fairly common practice in the blade world.  A good example is a knife called the Dauntless. 

One knife.... multiple designer's interpretations.  There are some basic guidelines for the design of the knife, but beyond that, designers add their own flavor.

http://dauntlessarchive.com/?portfolio=knives (http://dauntlessarchive.com/?portfolio=knives)
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/the_dauntless (http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/the_dauntless)

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: madhabitz on June 09, 2012, 11:15 AM
I had a looksee through the PBase images and a tour through the Dauntless Archives. What a cool project-- thanks!


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 09, 2012, 04:20 PM
I seriously doubt Mark would care if someone made their own Elixir. 

That's not for anyone but Prism to decide. The property belongs to them. Full stop.

Aside from the legalities, if you think about it you'd be putting Mark between a rock and a hard place. The kiting community is a small one. Many consider him a friend and a good guy. If he protests someone doing this, he comes off the bad guy, a hard case, a jerk... whatever. If he grins'n bears it, which he almost has to do to keep the good will, it could come back to bite him in the butt at worst or just plain create hard feelings on his end.


You're taking this way too seriously. There's no way he's going to care. Some kiter remaking an old kite would be the least of his concerns.  Plus John was talking about changing the sail graphics, so no one is even going to recognize it as an Elixir.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 09, 2012, 07:40 PM
I took a shot at a graphic.

Really fast, but you get the idea.

I'm open to ridicule, but not impervious.  ::)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wEwrnsu5RII/T9QCUvzd65I/AAAAAAABGCg/cbSnne_TBcs/s800/9655%2520RElixir.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2012Kites#5752225179511942034)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Wayner on June 09, 2012, 08:41 PM
Nice looking design.

I hope Mark Reed like it (it has no mylar)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 09, 2012, 09:03 PM
Too many right angles............now if they were arcing lines...........that would accentuate the dynamics of the Elixir, I mean ;) RElixir sail shape. ::)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 10, 2012, 02:13 AM
Just in the spirit of widening the debate... are you aware of this:-

Help Kite builders protect their designs! Facebookİ page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/)

Maybe these people have an insight into what is being proposed ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 10, 2012, 04:14 AM
All the flac this idea has caused is the biggest reason I'm sticking to SLKs and haven't really bothered delving into duals except to learn from what others have already done.  You can take ANY dual out there and claim it is a copy.  There is virtually nothing in a dual line kites since at least 2001(maybe earlier) that hasn't been done already.  REally all you can do with a dual is to design it for specific flight performance. Whether it has straight  or curved edges, single or multiple standoffs, high or low aspect, weight or no weight or whatever "feature" you can think of it has all been done before by someone so every dualie is just a copy with a different panel layout.  At least with SLKs you still have a chance of coming up with something somewhat original and even that isn't easy. 


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 10, 2012, 04:50 AM
Just in the spirit of widening the debate... are you aware of this:-

Help Kite builders protect their designs! Facebookİ page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/)

Maybe these people have an insight into what is being proposed ?

Mike.

I didn't see Mark's name in the face book group......Like John said, Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

He isn't going to make another one anyway.  Anthony:  All this flac?  This is tame. You shoulda' seen it in the good ol' days.  8)

kim







Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 10, 2012, 05:22 AM
Just in the spirit of widening the debate... are you aware of this:-

Help Kite builders protect their designs! Facebookİ page (https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/)

Maybe these people have an insight into what is being proposed ?

Mike.

I didn't see Mark's name in the face book group......Like John said, Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

He isn't going to make another one anyway.  Anthony:  All this flac?  This is tame. You shoulda' seen it in the good ol' days.  8)

kim






Is there a change you didn't tell us about :P 

I saw some of the "good old days" being a lurker for about a year or so before the site revamp and your right this is mild compared to then.  I've designed and built kites for myself for a long time and I can't even begin to tell you how many I came up with that had already been done. 

The only dual line I ever built was back in 85 after getting ahold of a gayla "stunt kite" that didn't work worth a damn.  Taking that kite, figuring out how to get it to somewhat work then figuring out a better wing design (taken from a GI Joe hang glider i had at the time) and working out a bridle from reading up on the  kites the wright bros. used i was pretty proud of myself only to fine out what I came up with was remarkably similar to the first prism I saw at my first real kite shop a couple years later and that was the radian but hey I was only 12 when I started that project, stunt kites were new to me and I thought I could do it better than what I had.  Just goes to show you even back then new ideas were hard to come up with.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 10, 2012, 05:28 AM
Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

[citation needed]

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 10, 2012, 07:44 AM
I took a shot at a graphic.

Really fast, but you get the idea.

I'm open to ridicule, but not impervious.  ::)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wEwrnsu5RII/T9QCUvzd65I/AAAAAAABGCg/cbSnne_TBcs/s800/9655%2520RElixir.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2012Kites#5752225179511942034)

OH MY GOD HOW DARE YOU! I'm calling the kite police! I bet Mark has already contracted his lawyer.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: boomertype on June 10, 2012, 08:26 AM
I too doubt Mark would care about kites made for personal use.
However if someone started mass producing them offshore in a dark sweatshop and selling them on evilBay as the Plism Erixer, Mark would have heartburn.
There is a huge difference between making a end of life previously produced kite for personal use, and making and selling them for profit.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Tmadz on June 10, 2012, 09:35 AM
Can we give them time to contact mark and see if he's ok with making a relixir for personal use?


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Craig on June 10, 2012, 12:39 PM
I too doubt Mark would care about kites made for personal use.
However if someone started mass producing them offshore in a dark sweatshop.........

Yeah because that's his job............. :D


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ara Ararauna on June 10, 2012, 12:44 PM
I took a shot at a graphic.

Really fast, but you get the idea.

I'm open to ridicule, but not impervious.  ::)

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-wEwrnsu5RII/T9QCUvzd65I/AAAAAAABGCg/cbSnne_TBcs/s800/9655%2520RElixir.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2012Kites#5752225179511942034)

Wow, I find it really beautiful.

N.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 10, 2012, 12:54 PM
Yeah, I should probably copyright the design.  ???

Having obtained a few patents in my time and actually completely

written one patent.....

Could one of us IANAL (iamnotalawyer) explain what "CLAIMS" any

recent kitemaker could make about their "unique" kite?

Perhaps the profile.

You could claim copyright on the panel design as art.

Maybe whoever first used a standoff could've gotten a patent.

We basically have a Rogallo wing (patented 1951) in various shapes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing)

combined with a dual-line kite (military WW2 IIRC).

Everything else has been minor tweaks borrowed from sailing

technology and material improvements.

I don't like knock-offs of existing designs and steer people away from them.

Even patents run out and are expensive to maintain and fight for legally.

The Revolution patent claims were quite specific and THAT kite is quite different.

I totally respect the Hadzicki family and what they have done. The dual-line

world has evolved into a microscopic difference of parameters, centered around

a 2.2 meter, dual-standoff, straight leading-edge, weighted wing with best materials.

What could a TNT or any recent high-end kite claim as theirs to protect?

Only the panel layout.

And I am not a lawyer.  :)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 10, 2012, 01:19 PM
John

By the way, sweet photoshop job you did there. Looks pretty damn real.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ara Ararauna on June 10, 2012, 01:34 PM
John

By the way, sweet photoshop job you did there. Looks pretty damn real.

Is that true?  :o    ???
Have I been fooled?   :-[
I support giving this design a life of its own.

I don't know about US legal aspects. Here in Europe the layout could be registered but not patented.
Register is for creativity.
Patent is for inventiveness.
Cheers,

N.

P.S. IANAL...   ;)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 10, 2012, 03:36 PM
Mark doesn't give a hoot if someone wants to copy his Elixir.

[citation needed]

Mike.

Okay ....Okay!!  Now I'm excited.........Let's see........hmmh :-\  I think we can get six pages of this thread if only we bring Citation in on it.........Wasn't he a son of Seattle Slew?  I think that's it...What gives?

 :P

Jim


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 10, 2012, 05:54 PM
Thanks JW.  :)

I was going for sort of a circuit board feel and wanted the design

to incorporate the spars as part of the "logo".

Don't know if it would work on a kite or what shapes you would have

to cut to make the shaped sail look like this. Probably wouldn't be

too easy to get that look on a deeply scalloped sail.

Hope you're doing well John.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 10, 2012, 10:04 PM
Yeah, I should probably copyright the design.  ???
Sure... as a derivative work, properly acknowledging the basis of it.

I am not a lawyer either (but I play one on TV) so rather than clumsily pick through a multinational legal minefield hows about this:- don't just go ahead and straight copy somebody else's work for your own benefit without at the very least asking their permission first on a prima facie basis of "that's only polite". And don't presume to know their view on the matter beforehand.

Quote
Maybe whoever first used a standoff could've gotten a patent.
One French company did try to patent bungee-around-the-wingtip. It took quite a bit of work to stop them. Patents offices let all manner of nonsense slip through.

Quote
I don't like knock-offs of existing designs and steer people away from them.
But you're untroubled by copies of out-of-production designs and that's without extending your "it's all been done before so today's kites are just yesterday's kites" analogy that everything's up for grabs ? What's the cut off ? As soon as it's out of production we should fire up our sewing machines or do you consider a period of mourning required ?

Quote
What could a TNT or any recent high-end kite claim as theirs to protect?
The specifics of that design and the right to make use of it as they see fit.

Bottom line - people will make copies of the Elixir and anything else they want whilst making whatever justifications they need. Or not. Maybe they simply don't care. I'd really like it if kite makers made their old designs public domain (like Elliot have done in the past) but that's for them to decide.

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 10, 2012, 11:11 PM
Mike,

I'm sorry that we don't have a "tongue-in-cheek" emoticon as my design statement

was meant to be amusing. It seems I failed.

I do agree that asking permission before making an Elixir "not for sale" is a reasonable

thing to do.

To me, the cutoff is unclear. Copying a panel layout on any kite seems obviously rip-off

fodder. I do believe that many of the current kites are very close to one another in

size, shape and behavior.

(If I took a Nirvana, moved the standoffs a bit, changed the panel layout,

slightly different bridle, it's not really my design, it's my Nirvana variation).

Certainly, even the much heralded Nirvana has gone through many iterations.

You mentioned, "The specifics of that design and the right to make use of it as they see fit."

Even if somehow those specifics could somehow be claimed as unique, any model upgrade like a 0.5 cm shortening of the upper spreader, would make someone's copy
"legal" under law.

I still maintain that any modern dualie has no feature or set of features which is so different than any other dualie. Panel layout, sure.

Consider the number of kites having the same name, no one seemed to care too much
about the TNT "borrowing" the Trick'n'Track nickname.
Vapor foils are out there right now.
It's hard to get a name that hasn't been used before.
A kite shape? Variations on a theme.

It is possible that the actual sail profile (not outline) may be somehow possible to protect.

Even my favorite flying kite, the Mojo, borrowed its broadseaming from sailing, and other sport kites used the same technique.

Whether the Hadzicki family condones Rev-like copies for personal use or not, they

realize that people are going to copy their breakthrough design. It's been almost

25 years since the Rev shape came out, so even if they could have patented the

basic shape, that would have expired.

The period of mourning should include:

1) The kite is no longer made

2) The kite hasn't been made for years

3) The designer/manufacturer has stated he will never make another one.

4) The "new"/old model being built is not for sale.

If I wanted to make a Rok, who do I ask?
A dualie? The kite maker whose kite "inspired" me.
I'm guessing there are many "inspired" kitemakers who started with someone else's kite and made enough tweaks, (along with a new panel layout) for them to think of themselves as the creator of that model.

Mike, you are one of the few people I like, respect and alway read on this Forum.

Considering some of the people on your facebook referenced page are having words with each other about inspired over copied, it's obvious the coveted pieces of the pie are not well defined.






Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: mikenchico on June 11, 2012, 12:49 AM
Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?



Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: KaoS on June 11, 2012, 01:30 AM

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really?


A bit like saying "all cars are refinements of Cugnot's steam automobile, so I'm going to copy something General Motors developed"



Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 11, 2012, 02:38 AM
While I enjoy splitting hairs with many of you.....

The fact remains that time and money someone spent to refine someone else's original work

does not make that refinement theirs.

If I determined a 10" standoff was the best length for a sport kite (just an example people),

that doesn't mean I am entitled to ownership or control of the length of a standoff.

I would have no claim to that. No dual line sport kite has a feature or set of features that could

be viewed as patentable (my test for inventiveness). I'm not saying kitemakers should get patents,

I'm saying they couldn't get patents. There is nothing they have done warranting that distinction.

Of course they want to protect their designs. For the most part, it would be a copyright

(bird shape for example). Artists go into museums and paint copies of the masterpieces for

schoolwork. Are they carted off to prison for forgery? No. Not unless they attempt to sell their

work as the original.

Consider the number of kiters, and kitemakers who use my photographs to promote both

themselves and their products on websites, (facebook, personal, professional). Many have

asked, most have not. It's true that the pictures are not part of my livelihood, not that anyone

has ever offered payment (Mark Reed and a few others have sent kites as thank yous). And

some of those people are on that facebook page Mike referenced.

Rob Vreeland has been published many times in the past without credit or money and left

kite photography altogether. Kiting is a tough area to make a living in.

   Had I the talent to build kites, what would I build? I could make a Rev look-alike and get

no static from Revolution as long as I make it for personal use. And they still make this kite.

That is without asking anyone for permission.

But if I wanted to make a copy of a kite long out of production, with no chance of being made again, for personal use, one time... I am vilified and compared to a common burglar.

Selective judgement. It's the best kind.  :)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 11, 2012, 04:44 AM
Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?


I'm pretty sure this comment was directed at JOhn but I will say that by now from several threads, my vapor resto project among others, it should be well known that even though I can already make these sails I'm not going to go as far as building a complete kite without at least letting MArk have first say in the matter(and the right to produce it himself if he liked the idea and results).

Now I have talked to prism CS both Brent and Sandy a few times about getting repairs to damaged sails on these older kites. On most of these OOP designs they don't do that (I'm assuming liability issues here due to replacement issues if their repair fails) and it was deemed ok to make templates for the purpose of rebuilding a sail if I wanted to do it myself.  This is how a lot of OOP items get remanufactured , restored and even customized. 

However, I think at this time this project/idea is killed, at least for me. MAybe when I have to make a new sail for my lix I'll resurect it then. SO might as well lock, delete, nuke or otherwise kill the thread too.  Maybe it will spark some talk over at Prism and get some new ideas flowing there, who knows.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: chilese on June 11, 2012, 08:10 AM
Mike (either one),

I have gone back and read most of the messages on the referenced kite builder thread.

There are several instances where 1 kite maker accuses another kite maker of stealing

a design. And there are also a few instances where the accuser is then accused by

someone else of "borrowing heavily" on previous work.

That would include Dean Jordan.

Thanks for the link.

Interesting and enlightening read.  :)

https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/53831298625/)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: zippy8 on June 11, 2012, 02:41 PM
There are several instances where 1 kite maker accuses another kite maker of stealing a design. And there are also a few instances where the accuser is then accused by someone else of "borrowing heavily" on previous work.
Permit me to reply this one last time and then leave you all to your own decisions.

I've had a bit of a try to track down a quote from Terry Pratchett about writing in the "fantasy" genre but I haven't and eventually gave up. He made the point that within a genre everyone takes from pot of preceding ideas that other have built up beforehand. As you take from them, it's only fair that you add to the pot a little of your own, and so the genre grows not by the work of one but by the hand of many.

Kite design follows the same broad principles - the best kite available today owes something to everything that came before it, in some small way. No one needs to reinvent the overall shape and form as it has been done before. Ideas about the ingredients that go into making a kite came from someone else and have been reshaped by everyone that has used them. Everyone is borrowing. There's not a single aspect of the Elixir that hadn't gone before - (active bridle; ABW - vented wingtips; seen it) but....

....when you come up with a specific recipe from those ingredients - that's yours. If someone then uses that to make their own, that's fair 'cos that's exactly what you did. But what's yours is yours. Some of the kitemakers on that Facebook group do get IN MY OPINION a little precious about just how much they've added to the pot but mostly, they're just trying to defend their work from direct copying.

"Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight. New panel layout, just for variety" isn't your own recipe, it's camouflage. You don't want this kite for its looks, you want it for how it flies, and all that work was done by someone else.

Mike.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: madhabitz on June 11, 2012, 03:37 PM
Oy. Lots of posts since I last read this thread. Lots of justifyin' going on. My first impulse was to spew. Then I decided I didn't really have much more to say that wasn't already very well said by the Mikes. +1

John W:  Really?

Anthony:  It's said there are only seven original ideas. Amazing how much new stuff there is every year, eh? Here's a fun piece of work by Gordon Taylor: http://www.goodgord.com/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html#!/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html (http://www.goodgord.com/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html#!/2005/11/are-there-any-original-ideas.html)
P.S. I'm still coming to Ripon whether you talk to me or not.

Once more:  Sam's links, posted as an example of how cool it would be to do this same kind of thing with kites:
http://dauntlessarchive.com/?portfolio=knives (http://dauntlessarchive.com/?portfolio=knives)
http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/the_dauntless (http://www.pbase.com/haveblue/the_dauntless)


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: boomertype on June 11, 2012, 03:47 PM

John W:  Really?

Really - what? :o  I'd imagine that John W. knows Mark as well as anyone on this forum.  Same town, been in the shop at least once ;).  I'd guess that John has a fair idea about it. 

Making one for personal use is a big difference than making them to be mass produced, or even making them on a one by one basis to sell. ???


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Ca Ike on June 11, 2012, 04:10 PM
Quote from: Dean Jordan via Facebook
Funny, i just read a little of the thread, oh man. If folks on that board can't understand, well there is little hope. I can only say, that as a designer, I'm not comfortable with people copying my designs. There. I sure do like it when they ask, and on one such, majorly copied design, i just made plans available. Now many people make this kite, yet even as easy as i've made it to do the right thing, there are many more who insist that they can just copy it without paying the ridiculously low price i've set up to make an authorized one.

Mark may feel different, that's his choice, but unless people at least ask.......

It's just not that difficult. It's only people. We all live somewhere, and we all have a phone or email.

To the point. Dean is one of those fighting to protect their livelihood. Is he throwing his hands up in resignation over this thread? Almost sounds like it.

Arguing that all kites are just a refinement on a 50 year old design gives somebody the right to "COPY" those refinements? Really? So somebody didn't spend their time and money to develop and test those refinements? 

You said "COPY". You did not say with Prism's permission, that thought only crossed your mind after you got called on it. Now we have 4 pages of trying to justify using the ideas, work and investment of another person without compensation.

We were burglarized once, my brother in law (a police officer) explained how the minds of burglars work, I fail to see any difference with this thread and his explanation of their attitude.

Sure it's an interesting experiment, But I'm sure it will only prove what we all really should be able to hypothesize from the parameters of the experiment. You can't build and Elixer using different framing, fabrics, fittings & graphics. That should end that other thread on Prism bringing back those old designs. You could keep track of the costs and time this takes and ask Jon T what it costs to have the mandrels and molds made up and to run a specialty run of rods and fittings. Oh that wouldn't change anything either would it?


I find if funny that this comes from a guy who won't even acknowledge the fact that his airform wasn't solely designed by him alone but that another thread entirely.  THats one thing I have always respected Mark for is giving credit to his team be it scobie, Tom or others that helped refine the design or his sailmaker friend that gave him the start in mass factory production.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: sluggo on June 11, 2012, 04:34 PM

"Duplicate the Elixir in size, framing, weight. New panel layout, just for variety" isn't your own recipe, it's camouflage. You don't want this kite for its looks, you want it for how it flies, and all that work was done by someone else.

I fail to see what's wrong with that, given:

a) (IA still NAL) Frame geometry, bridle dimensions, etc. are all utilitarian sorts of things, which isn't really what copyright law was designed to protect, so "how it flies" is not protectable IP, unless it's sufficiently innovative that you have taken out a patent.

b) You're not taking money away from that someone else, or (speculating here...) even diverting funds that would otherwise have gone to them, or even profiting yourself.

I'm mystified. I would not want to cause a kite designer any harm, but I have not seen anyone say how that would happen. Saying "don't do it because it's bad" doesn't add information to the discussion.

Also - going way out on a limb (or digging a hole deeper?) here, just for consideration... If you're doing some project like this, and you feel certain that you're not violating any legal or ethical boundary, what good comes of asking permission? You've put the kitemaker in a position of having to say yes, say no, or ignore you. Saying "yes" sets a precedent which they might not be too keen on doing, even if this particular project is OK with them, and the other two responses aren't very good from a public relations point of view. Seems like you've handed them a no-win situation. So perhaps it's more polite to just do it, and then after the fact be generous about attribution to the original where it's due.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: sluggo on June 11, 2012, 05:15 PM
[Terry Pratchett ...] made the point that within a genre everyone takes from pot of preceding ideas that other have built up beforehand. As you take from them, it's only fair that you add to the pot a little of your own, and so the genre grows not by the work of one but by the hand of many.
Makes perfect sense from the perspective of an author writing and publishing a book, but what if you just wanted to scribble some things in your diary? Let's say I was amused by the idea of making a version of "Jabberwocky" with a few of its nonsense words replaced by my own.  Its copyright has long expired so there is no legal reason not to do this. Ethically speaking, I have no intent to publish or distribute it beyond maybe subjecting a few unfortunate dinner guests to an occasional recital, and within that context it will be clear (or made clear) that I didn't write the whole poem. Should I restrain myself for fear of offending the estate of Lewis Carroll?

How is this different from making your own version of an OOP kite that you only intend to fly yourself, and which you would describe to any interested passers-by as a derivative of the mighty Prism Elixir, which is not made any more, but Prism does still make some fine and inexpensive kites, which can be purchased yada yada yada...


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: DWayne on June 11, 2012, 05:33 PM
There are tons of open source plans out there. If you don't have the wherewithal to design your own, use one or more of the available plans. FWIW, Incorporating a design element into your design is not the same as copying a design.

Denny


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 11, 2012, 09:05 PM
"Round and round we go in the circle game"   :o

If you build it, John, they will come around. :-X


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: John Welden on June 12, 2012, 08:23 AM
My guess is Mark would be more annoyed having to respond to an email from someone asking if they can make their own Elixir.  Of course they can! Go for it, who cares!

On the list of things that matter in the universe, some dude making his own Elixir is near last in importantence. That's assuming he copies the sail graphics.  If he doesn't, the importance level drops to somewhere around if I like popcorn or not.

John, I've been okay.  I'm finishing up my miniature kite project and I'll post pictures soon. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. 

I hope you and your family are doing well.  You might want to get your finances in order for when Mark sues you over this Elixir deal.  You know how ruthless he is.


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: Kantaxel on June 12, 2012, 04:41 PM
 ;D


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: udin9568 on June 13, 2012, 02:52 AM
Wow!! 5 pages and still no report :D.  I was thinking this would be like one of those old days thread where you buy the kite, mod it, and just tell how thing works...yada yada yada :D...you know...yada yada... ::)hmmmm P100 for LE would do nice...


Title: Re: Relixir
Post by: williamskg6 on June 17, 2012, 07:56 PM
So, I have a buddy who is an intellectual property lawyer and I asked him his opinion on all this.

The short answer: don't use the name "Relixir".  Otherwise you're probably safe to use the copied Elixir plan and evolve it as long as you do not put the exact Elixir plan up on the net.  The evolved version is almost certainly legal, as it is just another expression of the basic design of a stunt kite.

The tricky part is that copyright has nothing to do with this.  The basic idea of a stunt kite cannot be copyrighted and there are only so many ways that someone can "express" the kite through details.  Everyone is in fact taking the basic idea that has been refined, refining it further (another "expression") and selling it.  There are finite ways that the kite form can be expressed.  What could be an issue is the name.  Elixir could be a trademark, and even reusing the name with an R on the front of it could be trademark violation.  The styling pattern (panel layout, holes in the wingtips, etc.) could be trademarked too.

So, this is a trademark problem, not a copyright problem.  Sounds like it's probably safe to proceed with the project, but not with that name and definitely evolve the plan slightly and it's probably OK.

Disclaimer: I'm not a lawyer.  If you follow this post and it turns out I communicated what my lawyer friend said incorrectly, I won't be held liable.  I do, however, trust my friend's opinion though - intellectual property law (patents, copyright, trademarks) is ALL he does.  That doesn't mean that the original designer won't try making requests to take down derivative works, but they wouldn't have a lot of legal power - they'd just be hoping you aren't a lawyer and will do what they ask.