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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 05:36 AM



Title: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 05:36 AM
I'm looking for tips on how to break through the stalls. I've got my turns down and most of my stalls, but I still am stuck on getting side slide to go consistently. The winds here aren't the smoothest and I can't seem to get a day where the winds aren't gusty over 15 mph or too shifty.

I'm flying a Quantum, but it just seems to fly heavy and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want. I don't know if I'm being too strong with it, but the light touch doesn't seem to get any response. I've tried being careful when I adjust my bridle settings, but I can't seem to get it right either and I appear to be running all over the field to no effect.

Sorry guys. I'm just starting to get really frustrated and the more I watch the videos the less it helps. And what sucks is my schedule has seemed to conflict with just about every festival within 300 miles.

Does anyone have tips on self teaching or techniques to progress? Not a lot of dual line fliers near me to go to for help. :(


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: tcope on June 13, 2012, 05:47 AM
You were kind of all over the place with that post and did not really go into much detail in each area. You don't mention what the actual issues are. For example... what is going wrong with the slides?

For side slides, start on the _very_ outside of the wind window in a downward flight. Quickly spin the kite pointing upward and give immediate slack. As mentioned above, you don't state what is going wrong with the slides. You may need to walk forward if the kite is starting to fly at some point. If it's gusty, any slack line maneuver is going to be more difficult.

What do you mean by, "...and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want"?


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: fidelio on June 13, 2012, 06:39 AM
the success of a sideslide depends greatly on how you move your feet to compensate for the wind, and where the kite is in the wind window.

to keep the kite from rising or falling as you cross the window, on the sides you may need to be walking backwards but as the kite goes though the center of the window you may need to be walking forwards.

it may also be helpful to try a slightly different style of entry where instead of trying to snap stall with a pulling force, alternately you can turn the kite nose up and stop the rotation by letting out the tension on the initiating hand to meet the slack hand. this upsets the kite less and may cure a tendency in the kite to rotate past vertical. it can also help with momentum crossing the window sideways.

on older kites you could tug on the wing falling low and it would 'fly' up, but it seems more modern kites you have to let the high wing drop to meet the lower wing as theyrespond less to the small tug.

all of this of course, is just one persons rambling, but patience, and practice are the biggest key to success of a finesse move like the sideslide.

when you're lucky enough to get a good one, it's quite satisfying, and can rival the coolest tricks out there.

you can do it.

edit: forgot to mention
quick tip: use your wrists and arms to keep the nose pointed up, and your feet to control altitude.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: red sweater on June 13, 2012, 06:48 AM
I'm still working on that sideslide, too. It's pretty tricky figuring out the line tensions and how quickly I have to walk forward, and every day is a little different. I suspect I'm not going fast enough. But I haven't given it enough dedicated practice yet.

Sorry I don't have any helpful advice. Thanks for asking the question, the answers should help others (like me), too.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 08:10 AM
You were kind of all over the place with that post and did not really go into much detail in each area. You don't mention what the actual issues are. For example... what is going wrong with the slides?

For side slides, start on the _very_ outside of the wind window in a downward flight. Quickly spin the kite pointing upward and give immediate slack. As mentioned above, you don't state what is going wrong with the slides. You may need to walk forward if the kite is starting to fly at some point. If it's gusty, any slack line maneuver is going to be more difficult.

What do you mean by, "...and I can't seem to get the response out of it I want"?

You're right. I tend to let it bottle up and then it all bursts out. Let me focus here.

I have several issues and I can't seem to put them together. First is the wind speed. Having a hard time finding a day that isn't gusty, but in that 8-10 mph window to get the kite to slack line. Second, when I get that sweet wind the quantum seems to feel heavy and doesn't want to respond to my inputs. I have tried shorter/longer, faster/slower movements, but I am still saddled with tons of oversteer. Kind of like turning a boat. I can't seem to find the middle ground. That brings me to the bridle adjustments. I didn't play with the bridle setting for the first couple of months. But as my progress was slowing I thought that maybe I should adjust it to the more responsive setting to get quicker response to my inputs. I thought that I was ready for it, plus it's hard to tell when I should go for lighter wind or strong wind settings.

There's a lot of quad line fliers around here, but that isn't gonna help me and I really don't want to go there yet. I was really upset that I missed Grand Haven, but I'm hoping to catch some festivals this summer. Also, I am hesitant to bother the performers to ask questions. Sorry to say, I did meet the Gordon brothers in Milwaukee and was a little starstruck like a 6 year old. I was taking to a club buddy and Zach walks over picks up my buddys Rev and starts doing things that made my jaw drop.

Sorry so whiny, but I don't want to give up on this and I am tired of banging my head against the wall.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 08:13 AM
the success of a sideslide depends greatly on how you move your feet to compensate for the wind, and where the kite is in the wind window.

to keep the kite from rising or falling as you cross the window, on the sides you may need to be walking backwards but as the kite goes though the center of the window you may need to be walking forwards.

it may also be helpful to try a slightly different style of entry where instead of trying to snap stall with a pulling force, alternately you can turn the kite nose up and stop the rotation by letting out the tension on the initiating hand to meet the slack hand. this upsets the kite less and may cure a tendency in the kite to rotate past vertical. it can also help with momentum crossing the window sideways.

on older kites you could tug on the wing falling low and it would 'fly' up, but it seems more modern kites you have to let the high wing drop to meet the lower wing as theyrespond less to the small tug.

all of this of course, is just one persons rambling, but patience, and practice are the biggest key to success of a finesse move like the sideslide.

when you're lucky enough to get a good one, it's quite satisfying, and can rival the coolest tricks out there.

you can do it.

edit: forgot to mention
quick tip: use your wrists and arms to keep the nose pointed up, and your feet to control altitude.

Thanks Fidelio. Good suggestions. I think I need to change how I approach it.

Todd


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: red sweater on June 13, 2012, 08:24 AM
I've never had problems with oversteer on the Quantum. But I've yet to try the radical setting on the bridle, which I assume would increase oversteer. (See "Special Tuning Feature" on page 2 of this (pdf) document (http://www.prismkites.com/pdfs/sportKiteTips.pdf).) Do you know which setting you're on?

I assume flying at the lower end of the wind range increases oversteer, as well? I've tended to do most of my Quantum flying at the beach in stronger winds. Because it just won't stay aloft at most inland places for me.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: tcope on June 13, 2012, 09:25 AM
You are no being whiny. Those are all legit concerns/questions.

When I started I could nto get my Prism kite to fly. I even returned it for a slightly more expensive Prism kite (Fanatic). I still could not get it to fly. A few weeks later I met up with a local club. Turns out my bridle connections were about 8" too low! The kite would pop up and then jsut fall back down to the ground. If I had not found this out, I don't know if I'd still be flying 13 years later.

I had a hard time seeing what the adjustment type is on the Quantum from he PDF file as it does not provide an over-all view. Over-steer is when the kite turns really quickly with just a little tug. Because it turns so quick and with little hand movement, it also tends to keep turning a little even after straighting out the lines... hence, over-steer. He say that you have a lot of over-steer but also that it turns like a boat (slow). It should be one or the other.

You may want to look around in your area for a place with cleaner wind. Here, one side of town is terrible and the other side is much better. So location can change the way the wind blows.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: tpatter on June 13, 2012, 09:34 AM
Where I live, we usually have very bumpy and inconsistent winds.  I think it is very difficult to do a slide in anything but nice smooth wind.   This is an advanced trick (to be done well) in my book on a modern kite.

I would progress onto other tricks and come back to it.  It requires a finesse and connection with the kite that you can only get with lots of time on the lines (in my opinion).  Also, less wind, the better. 


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: red sweater on June 13, 2012, 10:21 AM
I had a hard time seeing what the adjustment type is on the Quantum from he PDF file as it does not provide an over-all view.

Maybe I had no trouble because I'm an engineer. :)

In the diagram, the inhaul is on the left, outhauls on the right, flying line on the top. The adjustment is just moving the inhaul further up the flying line pigtail, bringing the bridle more to the center.

P.S. "Care and Feeding" section?! Just saw that now. What do you feed kites?


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: adx1592 on June 13, 2012, 10:38 AM
Tmadz,
where in IL are you located? I'm meeting up with another flyer around here sometime, I'll let you know when and where if you're close and interested. I can try to help if I can.

Fidelio hit the nail on the head, for me at least. Mess around with entires, and move so slightly to control altitude and bobbling with your hands and feet. The inputs for these are much smaller than you might think. Keep crankin' away and try not to really over think it.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 10:59 AM
Over-steer is when the kite turns really quickly with just a little tug. Because it turns so quick and with little hand movement, it also tends to keep turning a little even after straighting out the lines... hence, over-steer. He say that you have a lot of over-steer but also that it turns like a boat (slow). It should be one or the other.

You may want to look around in your area for a place with cleaner wind. Here, one side of town is terrible and the other side is much better. So location can change the way the wind blows.

I am west of Aurora. WIDE open corn/soybean fields. I have a few nice 10+ acre parks surrounded by farms to fly so I can get the smoothest air possible, which isn't saying much.

My oversteer is as you described it. I was focusing on the delayed reaction after the inputs, not the speed. When I go to correct, I start getting the wobbles and the kite'll tip to one side and I have to pull out of the slide before it can really begin. I've tried both long/short and slow/fast movements and can't seem to find the right combo.

When I say it flies heavy, I mean that the response in the 8-10mph winds is sluggish compared to say a higher end kite. I've tried to find the magic wind speed but anything over twelve seems to fill the sail and the pull is too much without running down the field to slack the lines. What I'm looking at is inexperience without benefit of tutoring. I've hit a wall and I think I need to fly with some experienced people.

I'm going to reset the bridle to factory and start over. Thanks for the help. I am determined to get past this.

p.s. I have added a couple of sites to kitemap.org in Sugar Grove and a have a few more good ones to add to give you an idea of where I have to fly.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Gamelord on June 13, 2012, 11:19 AM
One thing that you will probably want to play with is the bridle setting.  For slides, I find that setting the kite heavy helps.  Move your bridle attachment point towards the "strong wind" setting - yea, even if you are flying in light winds.  This will make it easier to stall the kite and give it less tendency to fly forward.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: lylenc on June 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
In preparation for the slide, practice holding a stationary stall as long as possible in all areas of the wind window. That will get your control inputs and muscle memory set most of the way for the slide, so you won't have to think about them during the slide.

As mentioned previously, control kite's slide altitude with footwork moving forward to reduce height and backward to increase height for adjustments to gusts and position in the wind window.

Usually holding the leading wing at a constant arm position is easiest for learning, so that wing tip is the pivot point for maintaining wing tips level. (There are times when using the front wing tension or slack is easier, but that is an extra variable you can learn after you have the slide figured out.) Adjust the trailing wing's line tension or slack to move the trailing wing tip up or down for a level wing tip orientation.

I found learning slide control easiest by focusing my attention on and "flying" the trailing wing tip. Others may have better luck focusing on the nose or the entire kite. I look at the entire kite now that I don't have to think about slide inputs.

While learning slide control, in the higher end of the kite's wind range, do slides at the edges of the wind window. In the lower end of the wind range, use the center of the window. Once you get the hang of it, you can use as much of the window you want to work for.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 13, 2012, 01:59 PM
Thanks Guys. Some really good tips. I get the feet to control altitude and I get the flying controlling by trailing edge. I'm going to try these out.


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: mikenchico on June 13, 2012, 03:07 PM
Also rather then a straight dive at the ground make the dive curved toward the center a bit or enter the trick with a slower turn before the spin to accomplish the same thing. Either helps to provide a bit of momentum toward center to begin the slide.

Gusty winds, a heavy kite like the Quantum requiring 8 mph to be responsive and the more modern deeper sail are all working against you. With perfect timing or a bit of luck it'll be in there. Get you into some light lab grade winds and I bet you'll find you had it all along, the conditions were just working against you being able to hold it as long as you would like.



Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: mikenchico on June 13, 2012, 04:10 PM
I'm guessing also that you're dealing with a significantly slowed and disturbed boundry layer. I can't say with certainty this will work and it won't be as impressive as dragging  a wingtip across the field but you could try using your horizon as a reference point rather then the ground to get up into better winds.



Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: tcope on June 13, 2012, 04:23 PM
To add to what skb mentioned, I like to try to keep the kite pointed straight up when sliding but keeping it tilted is a little easier. I mentioned starting it all the way out on the edge of the wind window. When you turn the kite quickly into a snap stall, the kite automatically wants to "slide" into the middle of the wind window. So really you are simply performing a snap stall at the extreem edge of the wind window from a downward fight. You don't need to be pointed 100% down, the kite can be partially pointed inward toward the middle of the wind window. This would make for an easier snap stall.

When I was competing, one thing I always was told... see how that person is walking around? Flying is not about standing on one place... you need to be moving around. In videos you may see many people standing still but usually those videos are taken in perfect flying conditions and show people who have mastered what they are taping.

The only other advise I can give you... DON' GIVE UP... DON'T GET FRUSTRATED. Relax and take a deep breath every once in awhile. Imagine that you could be cleaning your house or digging a ditch at that moment. Flying a kite is a whole lot better!


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Wayner on June 13, 2012, 04:44 PM
This is an advanced trick (to be done well) in my book on a modern kite.

I would progress onto other tricks and come back to it.  It requires a finesse and connection with the kite that you can only get with lots of time on the lines (in my opinion). 

Tom has some good advice. I love the side slide, but my old school kites do them much better that modern kites.

The Opium is the only modern kite I've had success with. One night Chilese pull it out of his bag. Great slides in medium wind that night.  8) 
Spend hours and hours without success with my other modern kites  :-[

Now I only attempt slides with old school kites. Much less frustration. Trying other tricks may bring quicker rewards. 


 
 



Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Tmadz on June 15, 2012, 07:45 PM
I had some pretty strong winds this evening. With your suggestions I was able to have a lot more success than I was before. Moving the feet (a lot) and trying to focus on controlling the trailing edge worked a lot better in winds that were higher than I was flying in before.

I had a few pretty good slides of varying degrees. Nothing worthy of video, but defintely broke through that wall I was at. Thanks again. ;D


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: vertigo2u on June 17, 2012, 10:14 AM
Been learning the slide for the past month.  PRACTICE PRACTICE.  I make sure my lines are crossed before I come to the side of the window.  When I dive down and turn ,the lines are not crossed.  As I turn I pull hard and pop the sail like a stall. I tried some of the advise I got and it's working. I use the one hand to steer the tail like a rudder.

All this sounds good, but truth is.  It will drive you crazy.  I did something different in my practicing.  I keep flying the kite in the window in front of me and I keep popping all the wind out of the sail.  I stand her on both tips and try to keep the kite standing as I move her around.  Always moving myself inward or outward to maintain air flow.

Just playing in this fashion as given me more self confidence in this.  Last week my slides are looking pretty good.  I even moved it left to right and back again.
Not far but done.  Playing and feeling the wind and doing simple axels or 540's in this fashion gives me a sense of better control of the kite.  It then lends way for me to work the slide.

I dive downward and snap the kite to the left and pop the air out of the sail so she can gently glide.  However I feel for me.  I will never accomplice this trick fully unless I can control the kite in gentle wind.  So I continue to work my little practice sessions the same, but my results are really looking good.

I guess what I am saying is ...as a beginner I need that kite to STALL and I work at it.  I'll move it back and forth just popping the sail over and over again.  Knocking the air out of it,feeling the end result and trying to incorperate that into the slide. 

Higher winds 6-9mph, just means stronger pop on the sails.  I tend to muscle them...

Strange comment on another post about WM Ul can't handle heavy hands.  I beat the dog out of it at times.  Same same Std.  I have watched Devin whip it till it cried.   


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: Ca Ike on June 18, 2012, 01:16 AM
I'm going to chime in here and probably repeat some of that has been said.  I found 3 keys to getting a good slide.  First key is the entry.  DOn't just fly down and turn quick.  It should be more of a spiral ( I use the number 6 as my guide) with a step or 3 forward as I come out of the spiral to kill forward drive and keep the momentum.  A common mistake on the entry is to add a snap or quick turn input which usually ends up with no slide and a stall with the kite over rotating.

Second key is to constantly move back and forth to keep the height even.  This is even more important in inland winds as you have to move forward pretty fast sometimes to counter a gust and back quickly to keep the kite floating.

THird and probably the biggest key of all is the LEADING hand never moves.  ALL adjustments should be done with the trailing hand.  If your trying to slide right to left then your left hand doesn't move and you make all adjustments to keep the kite level and sliding with your right.

On the quantum your actually better off with the forgiving setting.  The radical setting IMO is a bit too much and makes the kite too twitchy and fly really heavy.

Here's a vid I did a couple years ago with clips from a marathon 4 hour slide practice session.  You can see the range from crappy to nice and also see me in the frame so you can see what I'm doing.  HOpe all this helps.  https://vimeo.com/19018195


Title: Re: Stuck on stalls
Post by: red sweater on June 18, 2012, 05:49 AM
I make sure my lines are crossed before I come to the side of the window.  When I dive down and turn ,the lines are not crossed.

I've not heard this before. It's harder with the lines not crossed? Disregard, I misread. I have been doing the same, out of instinct, but it is in fact easier with uncrossed lines, right?

On the quantum your actually better off with the forgiving setting.  The radical setting IMO is a bit too much and makes the kite too twitchy and fly really heavy.

Thanks for that tip. I know it could easily come across this way, but I wasn't recommending the radical setting, just asking which it was on, since the OP reported oversteer. I haven't done a good slide yet, so I'm not in a position to give advice on bridle settings. I was just pushing to get the right info out there so the experts could say things like this.  ;D