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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Vernstein on June 17, 2012, 04:59 PM



Title: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Vernstein on June 17, 2012, 04:59 PM
Hi All
I am new to Kiting, just started in March of this year .  I bought an Emong low wind and am having a terrible time even after over 2 hours of flight time.  It turns a 90 degree on it's side when line is pulled.  it nose dives almost all the time and the main line slips on the bridle and I don't know how to stop it or where to position it.  I tried adjusting the bottom tension and that didn't work.  And the line twists.  I bought this to relax and it has turned into a work and frustration verses relaation.    Folks what am I doing wrong?I fly in no wind to light and variable here in York, PA.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ken Bour on June 17, 2012, 06:53 PM
I was about to purchase one myself and will be very interested to see what kind of response you receive to your challenges with this SLK.

I wrote to Will Sturdy inquiring about a Chiroptera; however, he is really busy and not sure when they will be available. I am at least on the waiting list...

I think, in the meantime, I may buy a ProDancer SUL from Skyburner or, alternatively, an Ocius SUL. Clearly, both kites have a solid reputations and they are dual-line to boot!

Ken


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on June 18, 2012, 12:34 AM
I haven't flown an emong but there are a few things to try that are common to all gliders.  First never yank the line or stop the pay out abruptly.  WHen at the end of your glide you have to pull the line gently to the side you want to turn to. Basically move your arm how you want  the kite to go.  IF you pull straight back you will get a nose dive.  Wait for the kite to turn at least 90 degrees before pulling in to climb.

Now if the kite doesn't want to turn fully and climb move your tow point forward slightly.  YOU want it set to a point just forward enough for the kite to turn easily but have a good climb rate.  Make sure you roll over the prusic knot on the tow point so it locks.  This can be difficult on some gliders because of how short the bridles are do you may have to add another wrap in the knot.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Kantaxel on June 18, 2012, 12:11 PM
And the line twists.  I bought this to relax and it has turned into a work and frustration verses relaation.    Folks what am I doing wrong?I fly in no wind to light and variable here in York, PA.

The only thing I've found that will help with any of the gliders' twisting lines is to always turn back the other way an equal amount that you are turning normally.  I'm right handed so I have to consciously think of turning to the left to equalize the twisting.  Short of disconnecting your flying line and putting it back on the winder you could always get a fairly large fishing swivel and it will help, although I'm really not sure how much. IMO most of the gliders like extra weight at the nose and not on the tow point.

Jim


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: thief on June 18, 2012, 01:50 PM
i use tiny tuna swivels.....very low profile....and they spin quite nicely....and do not weigh much either...
These are like the ones i use...but are even lighter....i think mine are 50#.....i can double check......super slick spinning...
http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SHSB-ALL (http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SHSB-ALL)


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ken Bour on June 18, 2012, 03:05 PM
Thief, I looked at the swivel pic, but I cannot quite visualize how it works when flying an SLK. For the uninitiated, can you explain a bit more fully how the line is threaded?

Thanks, Ken


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: thief on June 19, 2012, 03:54 AM
I I have small loop that attaches the swivel to the bridle.    Then a longer loop as the attachment point off the other side.   
I like these swivels as there are no clips on them....and they are low profile.   
I do have a number of linesets that just have a swivel and clip at the end of the line to attach to the kite as well...

The swivels in either location or configuration will help to reduce the twists in the line.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Vernstein on June 19, 2012, 04:25 AM
I am so glad I found this site and have gotten some great answers.  Quite frankly I was ready to give up and sell the Emong.  I still am having trouble learning how to launch it and in keeping the line from moving on the bridle.  As an avid fisherman I used to tie a small piece of rubber band above a bobber as a bobber stop.  Possibly this may also work in providing just enough friction to help keep the line from moving.  I also get frustrated from getting wrapped up in the line.  Here again, I may apply a fishermans technique and use an automatic fly reel (if I can find one) and clip it on my belt.  Your suggestions are very greatly appeciated.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on June 19, 2012, 04:42 AM
The automatic fly reels don't work well at all.  In fact I don't think they make them anymore.  GEtting tangled in the line is all part of the "fun" of gliders :P   As for the bridle, make sure the tow point pig tail is attached with a prussic knot and make sure you roll that knot over to lock it.
http://images.ebsco.com/pob/summit/catalog/instr_prussic.pdf (http://images.ebsco.com/pob/summit/catalog/instr_prussic.pdf)

http://www.my-best-kite.com/prusik-knot.html (http://www.my-best-kite.com/prusik-knot.html)

http://gamma.nic.fi/~sos/knots.htm (http://gamma.nic.fi/~sos/knots.htm)


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ken Bour on June 19, 2012, 05:45 AM
I I have small loop that attaches the swivel to the bridle.    Then a longer loop as the attachment point off the other side.   
I like these swivels as there are no clips on them....and they are low profile.   
I do have a number of linesets that just have a swivel and clip at the end of the line to attach to the kite as well...

The swivels in either location or configuration will help to reduce the twists in the line.

Thanks for that explanation. I think I see how it works now.

Looking at the link/pic you originally cited, that particular swivel is labeled "Heavy" and I don't see any weight information. The lowest strength is 150#; however, on another page (same site), they list this swivel (#10) which they label "tiny" and would be presumably much lighter. For a glider, a 35# strength should be OK, right? They also have a #8 which is rated at 50#. http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SPSB-ALL (http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SPSB-ALL).

What do you think?

Ken


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: mikenchico on June 19, 2012, 07:51 AM
The powsr swivels are not ball bearing, they run pretty free but  I use the Sampo style

 http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SBSB2S%2DALL (http://www.spro.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=SBSB2S%2DALL)

You can get them at any fishing supply even drug stores around here like Rite Aid & Longs

I really like the ones Thief posted but I haven't seen them in a light enough size for the no wind gliders.

Oh if you fly in dusty or sandy condition here's a trick - get a couple candles and warm the swivel over one then drip/melt wax into the swivel with the other, then break it loose so it will spin freely again. The wax is a great dry lubricant and since you are filling the space it will keep any dirt from getting into the bearings and binding them up.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: thief on June 19, 2012, 08:47 AM
Yeah the swivels i use are called "heavy, because they are heavy duty ones....they swivel very nicely...but i like the low profile aspect..

i just checked: I use the Size3 ones that are rated at 150#.   
I just picked up a pack of the Size 4 ones that are 240# test:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-wyBhke3jOSA/T-CdqGEMKsI/AAAAAAAAXFE/3z4J2g_ZfNM/s512/2012-06-19_11-41-00_172.jpg)
You can see how small they are...that is the 240 and it is almost as wide as a nickel....
Yes, I just paid 8.95 for a pack of 5....not bad for how nice they are.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: mikenchico on June 19, 2012, 01:00 PM
Jeez, the ones I bought must be the 1030 lb then, they didn't have a rating on the bin (bulk bin, not packaged) and the smallest they had were at least 3x that size. Guess I won't worry about them on any laundry I have then. Thanks for the picture and size comparison, I'm now needing some of those 150 & 240's.

I hadn't scrolled down to those specs and seen how small they do come. The small Sampo style I posted use split rings which have sharp points to wear on your lines, those are much nicer.



Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: boomertype on June 19, 2012, 04:42 PM
Just for an experiment, take any swivel, attach one of the swivel's eyes to a hook or nail on one end, on the other end attach about 100' your flying line.
Have someone start twisting the line at the handle end and see how may twists you get before the swivel turns.
Yes inquiring minds want to know.
I have extreme doubts twisting the line with a Ruby jeweled swivel would make a difference.
My guess line twist does nothing till you have more twists than you ever want to put in the line to create a turn.  Specifically with the light line used with gliders. I use swivels on larger kites and 90 lb up test line. But turning a glider with 30 lb line be twisting the line, I doubt it.
Please do this experiment.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on June 19, 2012, 05:08 PM
The experiment is pointless.  YOu get 1 twist in a slack line and it will come out when you pull it in and put tension on it as you get the kite to climb.  Now back on topic.  There are a few ways to launch.  you can toss it out like a glider plane, grad it from the side and frisbee toss it or grab a couple feet below the kite on the line and overhand it.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: thief on June 20, 2012, 04:14 AM
Just for an experiment, take any swivel, attach one of the swivel's eyes to a hook or nail on one end, on the other end attach about 100' your flying line.
Have someone start twisting the line at the handle end and see how may twists you get before the swivel turns.
Yes inquiring minds want to know.
I have extreme doubts twisting the line with a Ruby jeweled swivel would make a difference.
My guess line twist does nothing till you have more twists than you ever want to put in the line to create a turn.  Specifically with the light line used with gliders. I use swivels on larger kites and 6 90 lb up test line. But turning a glider with 30 lb line be twisting the line, I doubt it.
Please do this experiment.

I really use the swivel when I am wrapping the kite line up.   During flight its use is negligible......


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: mikenchico on June 20, 2012, 07:57 AM


I really use the swivel when I am wrapping the kite line up.   During flight its use is negligible......

I'll agree with Anthony, there is some benifit while flying due to the constant changing tension. But except for the big kites I seldom unhook the kite before winding up, the swivel really helps then especially on a kite that has been looping.



Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: thief on June 20, 2012, 08:46 AM
this also depends on what sort of winder you are putting it on and what method.......
if you hold the winder in one hand and wrap with the other then you are putting twists into the line.   if it is a yoyo and you roll it on it will not be twisted....
i keep 95% of my line on card winders so when putting the lines away they can become quite twisted.
just makes it a little easier


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: mikenchico on June 20, 2012, 03:00 PM
On a card winder wrapping in a figure 8 keeps the twists out, but when you're throwing the spool on the ground to fly a glider type kite that seems to tangle more then a straight wrap. I'm trying to get away from the hoop winders, I don't roll but wrap so there are always twists and they just take up too much space in the bag. just need to get on the jig saw and cut out a few dozen large 8 winders. I have a couple Gators & homebuilt fighter kite spools like the Gators I'll keep around though for the gliders and fighters.



Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: madhabitz on June 20, 2012, 04:30 PM
Quote from: thief
this also depends on what sort of winder you are putting it on and what method.......
if you hold the winder in one hand and wrap with the other then you are putting twists into the line.   if it is a yoyo and you roll it on it will not be twisted....
On a card winder wrapping in a figure 8 keeps the twists out, but when you're throwing the spool on the ground to fly a glider type kite that seems to tangle more then a straight wrap. I'm trying to get away from the hoop winders, I don't roll but wrap so there are always twists and they just take up too much space in the bag. just need to get on the jig saw and cut out a few dozen large 8 winders. I have a couple Gators & homebuilt fighter kite spools like the Gators I'll keep around though for the gliders and fighters.

Heh, you guys pretty much described the way I do things-- throw the yoyo on the ground, let line out, pull line in, then wind it back up. I do get some twisting, but so far it's been okay. At Ripon I went to help Jim (ozonejim) wind in a kite and he took the hoop from me (heh) and wound it himself, using that rolling method. It would be nice to use the rolling method, but man, it takes a loooong time to wind just one kite. I'd be there all day winding line for all the kites I want in the air.

Mike, I know what you mean about how much space these hoops take up. I was fighting it-- bought several of those Carey III winders. I would bring the kite down (line squiggled on the ground), then find myself a seat, wind the line around my leg once for some slight tension and go to town winding that sucker up. Hardly took any time at all and I didn't have a problem with the twists. In the end, I finally gave up and found a discounted piece of wheeled luggage that's big enough for several 8" hoops and a bunch of smaller ones. I got it at that Tuesday Morning store-- not sure you have one of those in your area.

You and Gibian are making a good case for wooden line winders, for all kinds of reasons.


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Ken Bour on June 24, 2012, 03:53 PM
I would like to hear again from Vernstein. Lots of advice has been presented. Did any of it work out?

What are your most recent experiences with the Emong?

Ken


Title: Re: Emong Low Wind Kite
Post by: Vernstein on June 26, 2012, 07:37 AM
Yes, thank you all.  I am still trying to master the Emong.  I am doing it in zero wind which I think for a beginner is a mistake. It still dives or I can hardly keep it flying more than a couple of minutes at a time. I keep it on a short line.  I have some vacation time this week and will try it in more of a light wind to a breeze.  It is embarrassing when you have onlookers and you have to take the proverbial "walk of shame"  However, I do know and am aware of 3 other words, Practice, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!.Thanks again for the Great Advice