GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: boomertype on July 19, 2012, 09:12 AM



Title: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: boomertype on July 19, 2012, 09:12 AM
Age old quest for what's the best figure 8 or flat wind.  When you buy lines they come both ways, it depends on the manufacture or who made the lineset.  Are you influenced one way or the other?  Comment if you have a real reason, not "just because my mother did it that way".
This should be interesting.  Poll results will be posted in 7 days.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: nckiter on July 19, 2012, 10:54 AM
Quad line - figure 8 same thing for dualies when I flew them. I believe that the crossing in the middle helps prevent line twists. I always let out and take up line from the handles (straps) to the kite, that way the line set flips end to end each time they are used. I have some spectra line that I know is 20 yr.s old.

SLK line is on wind breaker reels or gator spools, either way the line always comes off and goes on the same way to avoid twists.

Works for me ;D, YMMV


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Ken Bour on July 19, 2012, 11:06 AM
Dual line: Figure 8, starting from the straps
Quad line: on the handles flat round wind

I always wind from the straps/handles to the kite.

When I set up, I assemble the kite, attach the lines and walk backwards, unwinding as I go. Opposite when winding up.

+1 for dual-line (don't own a quad -- yet! :-\)


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: MtnFlyer on July 19, 2012, 11:08 AM
Dual, Quad is always figure 8-wound on the card. I unwind starting from the straps or handles, staked, to the kite. When winding up, I always put away the kite first, then wind the lines back to the staked handles. I almost never get a twist this way.

SLK is always figure 8-wound for the smaller line when on winders (slowly converting from hoops 'cuz they travel more compactly); larger line stuffs (neatly) into bags.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Jynx on July 19, 2012, 11:15 AM
Quad-lines: Straight-wind starting at kite toward handles, wrapping handles w/winder.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: sluggo on July 19, 2012, 02:27 PM
Flat-wind on dual, always winding from straps to kite, unwinding from kite to straps, because it is (for me) significantly quicker than figure-8 winding.

Is there any benefit to figure-8 winding if you're always winding and unwinding symmetrically?


Title: Re: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: coop on July 19, 2012, 04:11 PM
Flat wind from straps to kite. Seems like when I figure 8 they get tangled, maybe cause I'm left handed? Lol!


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: ko on July 19, 2012, 04:47 PM
figure 8 because thats how my dear old mother did it after she beat it into me


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Allen Carter on July 19, 2012, 06:12 PM
I only figure 8 when they are someone else's lines and I don't know if they hold the winder in the left or right hand.

For my lines, I've been winding straight on the same way for many years. I always hold the winder in the same hand. No worries.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: DD on July 19, 2012, 06:39 PM
figure 8
and i was taught by the best on how to wrap cables over and under too


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Texanpilot on July 19, 2012, 06:54 PM
Always figure 8 for me.

I can't stand the twists that develop in the line mid-wrapping if I went flat.  Even if the twists are undone when I unwind the lines, I really don't like them.  >:(


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Tmadz on July 19, 2012, 07:57 PM
I have tried it both ways. Figure 8 for dualies seems to prevent twisted lines. From straps to kite always.
 
Also, I can tell when my son has used my kite. He winds them flat and the lines always seem to have been crossed several times.

I figure 8 my big SLK's because it's quicker to roll up and less twisting. I have a heck of a time getting the kinking and twists out of my smaller SLK line using the yo-yo winders. I thought it was because of the twisting of line in mfg and the stretching.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Stogiez on July 20, 2012, 03:34 AM
Dual, Quad is always figure 8-wound on the card. I unwind starting from the straps or handles, staked, to the kite. When winding up, I always put away the kite first, then wind the lines back to the staked handles. I almost never get a twist this way.

+1 on dualies and quads.

On SLKs I use extension cord reels to bring in the lines. They are kinda big, but it makes winding in 150'-250' of line a breeze.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Allen Carter on July 20, 2012, 01:45 PM
I'm really surprised that so many people figure 8 their lines.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: tpatter on July 20, 2012, 02:26 PM
I go flat for maybe 4-5 times around and then do the rest figure 8!  :)


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Texanpilot on July 20, 2012, 09:12 PM
I'm really surprised that so many people figure 8 their lines.

And I was honestly surprised to see how many people don't.  Maybe I'm more of a neat freak than I thought.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Allen Carter on July 21, 2012, 01:08 AM
But the figure 8 does nothing. It's not about how you wind your lines, it's about how you unwind them.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: red sweater on July 21, 2012, 05:19 AM
But the figure 8 does nothing. It's not about how you wind your lines, it's about how you unwind them.

Care to elaborate for someone who's not very knowledgable?

You're saying you just have to unwind them the same way you wind them, right? Doing straight wraps puts twists in the lines, but if you unwrap the same way, it's alright?


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: sluggo on July 21, 2012, 09:29 AM
But the figure 8 does nothing. It's not about how you wind your lines, it's about how you unwind them.

Care to elaborate for someone who's not very knowledgable?

You're saying you just have to unwind them the same way you wind them, right? Doing straight wraps puts twists in the lines, but if you unwrap the same way, it's alright?

When I wind and unwind my lines, both ends are fastened to something (winder on one end, kite on the other end), and these things are not twisting relative to each other regardless of whether I wind flat or figure-8, so I don't think that either winding or unwinding by itself puts twists in the line.

If I wound them up that way but then unwound them as if they were on a spool by flipping the winder over and over, or unwound them out the backside of the winder, I'd get twists, but practically speaking that's not a concern.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: WinterDaze on July 22, 2012, 05:12 PM
Figure 8 style down here, wound in the opposite direction obviously

Taught to me by the US ambassador Bart


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Texanpilot on July 22, 2012, 06:23 PM
But the figure 8 does nothing. It's not about how you wind your lines, it's about how you unwind them.

I did try a flat wind once.

A figure 8 wind keeps the lines untwisted when on the winder, a flat wind doesn't.
Sure, they untwist when you unwind them, so when they're not on the winder there is no difference. 

However, I'm enough of a neat freak that I don't like them twisted on the winder, so I always use the figure 8.

I realize it's all a matter of preference and that I am a neat freak.  So I don't look down my nose at people who don't figure-8.

I forget who's signature line says "do what you like,"  but that applies here.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: sluggo on July 22, 2012, 10:26 PM
A figure 8 wind keeps the lines untwisted when on the winder, a flat wind doesn't.


Just my idle curiosity running amok here -- I don't get it. How does a flat wind make twists on the winder? Assuming the ends of the lines are fixed during the winding/unwinding process, how could anything introduce twists? It seems like winding and unwinding are equivalent to simply zigzagging the line back and forth, like this (using two blue lines to represent the winder just to make the picture clearer):
(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j267/jshowlett/winding.png)

The lines stay parallel to each other and untwisted in both the flat (middle) and figure-8 (bottom) schemes. Am I missing something?


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: sluggo on July 22, 2012, 11:43 PM
A figure 8 wind keeps the lines untwisted when on the winder, a flat wind doesn't.


Just my idle curiosity running amok here -- I don't get it.


OK, a little more idle curiosity and a pair of old shoelaces answered my question for me. The pictures should really look more like this (flat on top, figure 8 on bottom):

(http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j267/jshowlett/winding2.png)

They are topologically equivalent -- in either case, if you remove the winder the green line is on top of the red line -- but the flat winding has crossings along the side of the winder as opposed to the figure-8 winding's crossings between the two prongs of the winder.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Tmadz on July 23, 2012, 08:06 AM
I guess it comes to a matter of preference. It just seems to me when I wrap using figure 8 that the lines avoid any twisting or remove any twist in SLK lines. Flat awlays seems to just lock up the twists and I get kinks. The only thing I can think of to compare it to is spooling a garden hose or extension cord. When I wrap an extension cord around my arm I always get twists in the cord and it starts to kink. Same with spooling the hose. With the figure 8 I just seem to avoid that issue. IDK why.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: thief on July 23, 2012, 08:24 AM
i always wrap on a figure 8 shape....that way each layer of line is on top of another crosswise....i have had times where i have done a flat wrap and if it is not tight enough then an interior loop comes off first and then it is potential for a knot issue.....


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: red sweater on July 23, 2012, 08:37 AM
I'm wondering if anyone else has this issue:

My lines are recently evened out, but when I wrap them on the winder (I do figure 8 ), one ends up a little (an inch or two) longer. I assume that means that somewhere along the line the lines took different paths in a turn and one lay lower/tighter than the other?

It's not a big deal, except that when the time comes to unwind, the lines are often coming off opposite sides of the winder at the same distance from the kite. It doesn't smoothly/quickly unwind. No tangles or anything, it just throws off the rhythm. I try to rectify it by getting them at the same point in the unwinding again, and then pulling them taut with my other hand. I have to keep the manual tension on or it will happen again.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: thief on July 23, 2012, 09:03 AM
I'm wondering if anyone else has this issue:

My lines are recently evened out, but when I wrap them on the winder (I do figure 8 ), one ends up a little (an inch or two) longer. I assume that means that somewhere along the line the lines took different paths in a turn and one lay lower/tighter than the other?

It's not a big deal, except that when the time comes to unwind, the lines are often coming off opposite sides of the winder at the same distance from the kite. It doesn't smoothly/quickly unwind. No tangles or anything, it just throws off the rhythm. I try to rectify it by getting them at the same point in the unwinding again, and then pulling them taut with my other hand. I have to keep the manual tension on or it will happen again.
yep...sometimes they do not look even when wrapped up...i know that is where the RTF sets are sometimes off......the manufacturer might just wrap the lines straight onto the winder....and that can create uneven lines....


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Tmadz on July 23, 2012, 10:04 AM
I'm wondering if anyone else has this issue:

My lines are recently evened out, but when I wrap them on the winder (I do figure 8 ), one ends up a little (an inch or two) longer. I assume that means that somewhere along the line the lines took different paths in a turn and one lay lower/tighter than the other?

It's not a big deal, except that when the time comes to unwind, the lines are often coming off opposite sides of the winder at the same distance from the kite. It doesn't smoothly/quickly unwind. No tangles or anything, it just throws off the rhythm. I try to rectify it by getting them at the same point in the unwinding again, and then pulling them taut with my other hand. I have to keep the manual tension on or it will happen again.

Happens to me all the time as well, especially when I'm wrapping up fast. I just chalk it up to the lines getting separated at some point when winding over previous winds and over the distance of 85'-100' the are off by an inch or so. It's just them wrapping around different thicknesses on the winder. Wider diameter wraps a length quicker than the other line that wrapped around a thinner diameter.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: mikenchico on July 23, 2012, 11:48 PM
Figure 8  - I had the uneven problem myself for years until I figured out that by holding my index finger between the lines to remove any twists I'd left in I was causing the lines to take different paths. I still remove the twists but put my pinky between the lines thus keeping both lines together as they go on the winder.



Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Texanpilot on July 24, 2012, 08:34 PM
Figure 8  - I had the uneven problem myself for years until I figured out that by holding my index finger between the lines to remove any twists I'd left in I was causing the lines to take different paths. I still remove the twists but put my pinky between the lines thus keeping both lines together as they go on the winder.


+1

But my lines still get less than 1" off when I'm done wrapping them.  But to me it's better than having them twisted on the winder.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: mikenchico on July 25, 2012, 01:00 AM
...
It does not matter at all that the ends are apparently different lengths when wrapped up.

The only thing that matters is that they are matched lengths when unwound.

It's more the unwinding as stated above, when the lines are pretty far off on the winder you often end up with one coming off the top and one off the bottom, makes it hard to do the wobble as you walk to unwind.



Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: red sweater on July 25, 2012, 02:24 PM
...
It does not matter at all that the ends are apparently different lengths when wrapped up.

The only thing that matters is that they are matched lengths when unwound.

It's more the unwinding as stated above, when the lines are pretty far off on the winder you often end up with one coming off the top and one off the bottom, makes it hard to do the wobble as you walk to unwind.



This is indeed why I asked if it was just me, or if it's common.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Texanpilot on July 25, 2012, 08:53 PM
To address this, when I unwind, I grasp both lines at the winder and pull them off two feet at a time as I walk the lines out. This seems to eliminate most of the instances of one line slipping off early, unless I was sloppy and put a few loose wraps on the winder.

By the way, when unwinding, the flight straps with line attached are the first thing off the winder.  And I don't use a stake, so it's pretty necessary for me to pull the line off the winder anyway.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Ara Ararauna on July 25, 2012, 11:52 PM
I guess it comes to a matter of preference. It just seems to me when I wrap using figure 8 that the lines avoid any twisting or remove any twist in SLK lines. Flat awlays seems to just lock up the twists and I get kinks. The only thing I can think of to compare it to is spooling a garden hose or extension cord. When I wrap an extension cord around my arm I always get twists in the cord and it starts to kink. Same with spooling the hose. With the figure 8 I just seem to avoid that issue. IDK why.

I'd say this is the key. The examples of the hose and extension chords are great. I was taught never to wind audio or electric chords straight because it creates kinks. These actually make the cable twist along its length and this eventually breaks the copper wire inside because of the twist.
So in kite lines I don't think the problem is to generate twists between lines, but rather twists on each line. This longitudinal twist can go against the natural twist of the smaller threads that compose each line and therefore, on the long run, make the line loose compactness or stretch.

So 8 winding does save your lines from that.
And this therefore goes for singles, duals and quads alike.
Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: bt on July 26, 2012, 12:27 AM
Good and correct analogy/info with cables and cords but....for my dual and quad linesets I use the flat wind method....as long as the lines are going onto the winder neatly and under a good uniform tension. I have some really really old lines that are still fine using this method.
Way more importantly however, is that I dawdle, and after unwinding the lines I take an extra minute or so to "milk the lines" from the stake to the flying end(s). This takes any little twists out of the individual lines plus gives me an inspection of the lines. Sure it`s an extra bit of walking and a little more time, but sure beats the heck out of hurrying and getting a tangle....especially with 50lb line...
bt


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Tmadz on July 26, 2012, 04:09 AM
Ok. Next topic, toilet paper: over or under?


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: mikeb on July 26, 2012, 06:55 AM
Good and correct analogy/info with cables and cords but....for my dual and quad linesets I use the flat wind method....as long as the lines are going onto the winder neatly and under a good uniform tension. I have some really really old lines that are still fine using this method.
Way more importantly however, is that I dawdle, and after unwinding the lines I take an extra minute or so to "milk the lines" from the stake to the flying end(s). This takes any little twists out of the individual lines plus gives me an inspection of the lines. Sure it`s an extra bit of walking and a little more time, but sure beats the heck out of hurrying and getting a tangle....especially with 50lb line...
bt
I don't understand this milking after unwinding quadlines as they are attached to each other at both ends, I tug the lefts apart from the rights then attach to the kite walk back until the lines intersect give the rights an extra tug or 2 to get the final twists up to the handles now it's ready to fly then I fly, so you pop the kite up and get the twists out of the left top and bottom and the twists out of the right top and bottom lines, the go disconnect each side of the kite and go back to the stake and milk each line each time you attach lines to your quadline kite? On 120' lines that's about 1/4 mile worth of dawdling!


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Ara Ararauna on July 26, 2012, 07:14 AM
Ok. Next topic, toilet paper: over or under?

Perpendicular to the wall.


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: Tmadz on July 26, 2012, 08:13 AM
Ok. Next topic, toilet paper: over or under?

Perpendicular to the wall.

+1  :D :D :D


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: bt on July 27, 2012, 10:35 PM
 so you pop the kite up and get the twists out of the left top and bottom and the twists out of the right top and bottom lines, the go disconnect each side of the kite and go back to the stake and milk each line each time you attach lines to your quadline kite? On 120' lines that's about 1/4 mile worth of dawdling!
[/quote]

Sorry to hijack the TP thread :D...
Uh not quite....the lines are wound out, (handles/straps) attached at the stake....you can then carry the kite to the flying ends with one hand while milking the lines with the other hand...attach lines to kite and you`re ready to go.... Don`t have to do it all the time...just every now and then.
On a side note...sorry no 120`s here...never liked `em.....100`s and/or less please...not as much dawdling!!!
bt


Title: Re: How do you handle your lines on a winder
Post by: tpatter on July 27, 2012, 10:44 PM
I'd watch John Baressi's video on it - google on it, saved me much time.  Somehow, 4 lines are much more complex to manage than 2, but get into a routine and it's easy.