GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Quad Line Kites (aka "the dark side") => Topic started by: kiteflyer on August 10, 2012, 05:25 PM



Title: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: kiteflyer on August 10, 2012, 05:25 PM
Hello,
   Has anyone flown one of these kites? I just received mine and I must say that the quality is very nice. It comes with lines, handles and a very nice soft case. I'm not saying that it is as well made as a Rev. but it is very nice for under $200. I have not flown it yet but I was wondering if anybody else has?

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: boomertype on August 10, 2012, 05:31 PM
Looks like a Chinese Rev knockoff.  :-[


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: sunsetflyers on August 10, 2012, 05:43 PM
i myself would send it back and i will send you a1.5 ready to fly w laser pro lines handles for same price revolution did all the work and they stole it and coppied it if you can send back let me know


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: kiteflyer on August 10, 2012, 06:10 PM
Well, I suppose you could say that anything in life is a knockoff because there are always multiple versions of every invention, Think of all the different brands of electronics, or cars, or even stunt kites that are out there!
Are they all knockoffs of the original inventor's design as well?


Title: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 10, 2012, 06:22 PM
Did you really buy this or are you just testing the waters to try and sell these?


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: boomertype on August 10, 2012, 06:31 PM
Kite knockoffs are bad for the business of kiting.
Here is a link to a thread on the Rev Forum.
http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/3381-unauthorized-copies/page__hl__Knockoff (http://www.revkites.com/forum/topic/3381-unauthorized-copies/page__hl__Knockoff)

The folks doing this are copying Revs, Prisms, HQ and others.
Buying them only encourages and supports their business.
Every knockoff kite sold on EvilBay, is one less quality kite sold at a legit kite store.
Legit kite stores are hurt by this business as well are the kite makers.
There are other threads on this forum about knockoffs.
It's not a knock against you!
Sunset flyers and I are just speaking out against knockoffs.
Regards, Jim.


Title: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: indigo_wolf on August 10, 2012, 06:48 PM
are you just testing the waters to try and sell these?

Doubtful.  Mark has been active on both GWTW (with 11 positive transactions) and PKF (PowerKiteforum) for over a year. 

Besides he's fellow Massachoostian.  :D

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Re: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 10, 2012, 07:01 PM
are you just testing the waters to try and sell these?

Doubtful.  Mark has been active on both GWTW (with 11 positive transactions) and PKF (PowerKiteforum) for over a year. 

Besides he's another Massachoostian.  :D

ATB,
Sam

That's good. I can't see all his stats on my phone. But if he's been around you would think he's heard all this before.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: kiteflyer on August 10, 2012, 08:06 PM
Hey Jim,
   I really do understand what you and Sunset flyers are saying... but the same can be said for most products out there. One person/company did the research and design on most products and the others copied their products. Cars, electronics, furniture etc. and yes kites. That is all I have to say on the subject. I really just wanted to know if anyone else were flying these kites?


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Allen Carter on August 10, 2012, 09:08 PM
Plenty of good real Revs to be had for $200. Plenty of legit non-Revs on the market too, even cheaper.

It's no sin to be fooled by a knock off, it's the seller who needs to think about what they're doing.

The kite business has always been a small industry in the U.S., these days it's tiny. A lot of flyers know the people who make the kites. It's easy to feel protective of our own, you know?


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Tmadz on August 10, 2012, 09:35 PM
It's pretty, but boy does it look just like a Rev. Shape, size, vent at top of sail, leading edge, everything. You can clearly see the asian word characters.

Sure everything is a derivative nowadays, but Kites are a specialty market with not a lot of hardcore fliers. These are the type of people who would kill all the rhinos for their horns and then go "oh well" when they're all extinct and begin to kill another species, you follow? They don't care about anything except money, not kiting. It's tempting, but please don't buy from them on purpose.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: boomertype on August 10, 2012, 09:48 PM
. . . Sure everything is a derivative nowadays, but Kites are a specialty market with not a lot of hardcore fliers. These are the type of people who would kill all the rhinos for their horns and then go "oh well" when they're all extinct and begin to kill another species, you follow? They don't care about anything except money, not kiting. It's tempting, but please don't buy from them on purpose.
Well said!


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: kiteflyer on August 11, 2012, 03:34 AM
OK... I guess you guys are right. Kiting is a small community and I wound not intentionally do anything to hurt this great sport. So I guess I'm still looking for a pretty Rev for a good price. It seems that I just can not afford a new one.
   Thanks for all your input guys, Mark


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: KiteLife on August 11, 2012, 04:11 PM
Heya kiteflyer,

First, thanks for being human about all this (and more thanks to the cordial folks here who didn't snap on you).

Just to clarify - simple matter of fact, the SHAPE of the Revolution is covered by copyright.

Anything made in that shape without license falls under US copyright law, which is why you don't see it from other US manufacturers... As I understand it, this copyright law should be defendable across seas - but the process takes longer and is more expensive, much of it is still in process, but seems to be 100% justified.

Freilein appears to be a Chinese company, and doesn't seem to have any involvement (sponsorship, organization, education) with the global kite community at large - always my first test of measure for a company's character.

With that nasty stuff out of the way, welcome to quad fun! I love dual and single fun too, of course.

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: fidelio on August 11, 2012, 04:37 PM
excuse me while i go copyright the irregular hexagon, delta, and diamond shapes.

i'm gonna be rich AND loved by all!


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: sunsetflyers on August 11, 2012, 06:55 PM
i hope i didnt come accross to strong most people dont even know they are buying aknockoff i dont look down on anybody who falls for this i dont know this kite or how well it flys i might be good my OPINION is just that i love revs and the people who make them i to bought a knock off power kite and had nothing but problems it was big and cheap i did use the material to make 20 sand anchors good ankors like i said in previous post i have many revs and would sell you one with laser pro lines and rev handles i hope you got a good flying kite it may be welcome to the wonderful world of quads they are the best i love all my revs and fly them the most and the people flying quads are the best i have made some wonderful friends through kite flyin just my two cents for what its worth


          steve


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on August 11, 2012, 10:43 PM
Heya kiteflyer,

First, thanks for being human about all this (and more thanks to the cordial folks here who didn't snap on you).

Just to clarify - simple matter of fact, the SHAPE of the Revolution is covered by copyright.

Anything made in that shape without license falls under US copyright law, which is why you don't see it from other US manufacturers... As I understand it, this copyright law should be defendable across seas - but the process takes longer and is more expensive, much of it is still in process, but seems to be 100% justified.

Freilein appears to be a Chinese company, and doesn't seem to have any involvement (sponsorship, organization, education) with the global kite community at large - always my first test of measure for a company's character.

With that nasty stuff out of the way, welcome to quad fun! I love dual and single fun too, of course.

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: KiteLife on August 11, 2012, 11:03 PM
Fair enough... Not being a wholesaler or general consumer, I don't get to pull those strings.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: red sweater on August 12, 2012, 08:54 AM
excuse me while i go copyright the irregular hexagon, delta, and diamond shapes.

i'm gonna be rich AND loved by all!

I know this is a throw away joke, but since it misses wide anyway... ;)

I'm pretty sure that the correct term here (and in reference to the Revolution) is "patent." Regardless, you would run into centuries' worth of "prior art." While some patent trolls manage to sneak some things through, you wouldn't have a prayer.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: fidelio on August 12, 2012, 03:19 PM
the term i meant, is the term i used. read the reply directly preceding mine by JB.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: mikenchico on August 13, 2012, 06:21 PM
excuse me while i go copyright the irregular hexagon, delta, and diamond shapes.

i'm gonna be rich AND loved by all!

 :D 

Didn't  we....?   oh well


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: boomertype on August 13, 2012, 09:30 PM
Dave Gomberg won a lawsuit against some counterfeit kites and won custody of them.  The story is here along with an interesting challenge.
http://www.gombergkites.com/update/663.html (http://www.gombergkites.com/update/663.html)
Dave's real kites are available thru our most gracious host Chico Kites.

What would you do to destroy a counterfeit Octopus? 8)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: red sweater on August 14, 2012, 07:20 AM
What would you do to destroy a counterfeit Octopus? 8)

Dry ice and heavy winds?  ;)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: rncembal on August 14, 2012, 09:20 AM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: sluggo on August 14, 2012, 11:15 AM
Just to clarify - simple matter of fact, the SHAPE of the Revolution is covered by copyright.


Are you sure you don't mean trademark? I didn't find anything when trying a quick copyright search (though officially that doesn't mean anything), but a few minutes with TESS yielded this:

[oops... Not sure how to get a persistent URL to a trademark registration.] To see the trademark, go to http://tess2.uspto.gov (http://tess2.uspto.gov), click "Word and/or Design Mark Search (Structured)", enter 3879635 for the search term, and choose "Registration Number" for the field.


I'm not a lawyer and I don't know anything, but it seems to me that the shape would fall to some degree under the "useful articles" exclusion of copyright protection: http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl103.html (http://www.copyright.gov/fls/fl103.html) (yes there are other possible shapes for a 4 line kite, but it's clear from reading Revolution's "History" page that the shape has a large utilitarian component. It's not a flying octopus...)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on August 14, 2012, 11:44 AM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on August 14, 2012, 11:57 AM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.
I just want to point out that Rob might know what he is talking about....he has been working for kite manufacturers for a few years now (over 20 yet Rob?) and he is the COO of New Tech and has to deal with their own factory (I think the New Tech factory is not one of those  in Weifang - a place not a person - but not 100% certain).

How did Gomberg "win" his battle?   In the situation that Boomertype mentions he sued a former customer of his who had purchased a number of kites direct from China, and in the settlement Gomberg was awarded the chinese kites.   That is not a battle with Weifang manufacturers though, that was an US issue.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: red sweater on August 14, 2012, 12:03 PM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.

This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on August 14, 2012, 12:19 PM
This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.

There are many stories about the factories where iphones are made:
During the day the factory is pumping out Apple's iphones....then at night there is a second shift where the crew is making the exact same thing - just not for Apple.........


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Tmadz on August 14, 2012, 12:35 PM
There are stories all over the place of Chinese contractors building products for American companies and then countefeiting them for the Chinese market as well as direct mai lto the US market. They are more successful doing it for Chinese purchases though because they know that US law and int'l law will spank them, but they have over 1 boillion potential customers so they just take the plans and it is very hard to prosecutein the Chinese court or civil systems. China is still a socialist state so they don't make it easy for foreign companies to get justice. Many news stories have reported that it is getting easier to get relief and China's economy is it's own enemy now with their growing middle class and population increasing costs. Their labor advantage is shrinking, but items like kites with heavy labor and low cost I think still favor the contractors (by day, counterfietors by night).


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: rncembal on August 14, 2012, 02:44 PM
However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

You are stating that as a US based company I am slapping faces. You have no idea how many factories are producing kites and for who. (neither do I , well I know a bunch and who they make some stuff for but there are plenty more) That the Chinese system does not protect intellectual property is no in dispute. That every Chinese factory is run by crooks  I take issue with that. I think it's near impossible to not be Amish and live devoid of Chinese products. Also I'd like it if people would differentiate between counterfeit and knockoff. If you are firmly against any knockoffs you just can buy kites anymore if you look through any kite companies line you will find products inspired by other products


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Tmadz on August 14, 2012, 03:13 PM
True, but I didn't state that EVERY Chinese company were crooks, but a huge (majority?) number of counterfeits come from their factories. Same as I don't believe every US company are straight shooters. Chinas market and labor advantage were too huge to not deal with and  now those tables are slowly starting to turn, but US companies weight the risks and benefits of dealing with them. What I'm focusing on specifically is the limited kite market. We have a choice to choose licensed authorized kite products, and a lot of us know who those kites come from so that makes it a lot more personal when that money is being taken from those designers and producers.

No hard feelings to anyone else's opinion, but I have made my choice and I only encourage those to do the same.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: madhabitz on August 14, 2012, 04:09 PM

Are you sure you don't mean trademark? I didn't find anything when trying a quick copyright search (though officially that doesn't mean anything), but a few minutes with TESS yielded this:


A trademark is going to have more to do with a company's branding. For instance, a logo can be trademarked. Here's a good page to read about it with great examples:
http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html (http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html)


Title: Re: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 14, 2012, 04:27 PM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.
I just want to point out that Rob might know what he is talking about....he has been working for kite manufacturers for a few years now (over 20 yet Rob?) and he is the COO of New Tech and has to deal with their own factory (I think the New Tech factory is not one of those  in Weifang - a place not a person - but not 100% certain).

How did Gomberg "win" his battle?   In the situation that Boomertype mentions he sued a former customer of his who had purchased a number of kites direct from China, and in the settlement Gomberg was awarded the chinese kites.   That is not a battle with Weifang manufacturers though, that was an US issue.

Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: madhabitz on August 14, 2012, 04:29 PM
Quote from: Ca_Ike
However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

You are stating that as a US based company I am slapping faces.


You and Gomberg too, I guess.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: madhabitz on August 14, 2012, 04:34 PM

Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?

Dude..... how about finding out the whole story before you go off on him? The time, effort, and money it takes to right a wrong like this is more than most people/companies can afford to lose, so you don't see much of it happening. As a result, the unscrupulous get away with murder and have been for a long long time. The fact that David stood up for what was right should be applauded, not slammed.


Title: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 14, 2012, 04:40 PM
Easy there trigger. I wasnt slamming him. I was going off what someone else typed.

The conterfeit industry is a HUGE problem that I am VERY familiar with. Its odd for big companies to win these kinds of lawsuits so for a small company to go after an end user(if that's the case) and win is quite unheard of unless Rolex was going after them.


Title: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: madhabitz on August 14, 2012, 04:44 PM
Easy there trigger. I wasnt slamming him. I was going off what someone else typed.

"Trigger," lol.... better than some things I've been called. Thanks for the clarification. You have my apologies.

Nancy


Title: Re: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 14, 2012, 05:09 PM
No worries. And no apology needed. :)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: madhabitz on August 14, 2012, 05:25 PM
tnx


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: sluggo on August 14, 2012, 06:22 PM

Are you sure you don't mean trademark? I didn't find anything when trying a quick copyright search (though officially that doesn't mean anything), but a few minutes with TESS yielded this:


A trademark is going to have more to do with a company's branding. For instance, a logo can be trademarked. Here's a good page to read about it with great examples:
[url]http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html[/url] ([url]http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/devices.html[/url])


I know. But it's arguable that a non-rev kite in the "two triangle" shape is "confusingly similar" to the trademarked shape that is strongly identified with their brand. For example, if I made a kite in the shape of the Nike "swoosh", I would likely be infringing on their trademark (since I'm guessing their logo trademark registration includes international class 28 - toys and sporting goods - which is what my kite would fall under).

The "two triangle shape" case is not so clear to me, because trademarks have similar "utilitarian" exclusions as copyrights. For example, here's a case where a trademarked shape was used as the basis of an infringement claim against someone else selling a competing product with the same shape. Interestingly, as a result of the suit, the plaintiff's trademark ended up being invalidated for "utilitarian" reasons:

http://www.startupnation.com/Can-I-get-a-trademark-on-the-shape-of-my-product/topic/ (http://www.startupnation.com/Can-I-get-a-trademark-on-the-shape-of-my-product/topic/)

But again, I'm not a lawyer and I don't know anything. Just engaging in the dubious practice of public speculation (although I have registered a trademark, produced copyrighted works, and been through the patent-filing process).


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on August 14, 2012, 06:30 PM

Revs come through the Swap Meet at good prices pretty often, and a few folks out there may even have a kite they're willing to part with for the cause... Good luck, I hope you find something soon! :)
Quote
Just for your own info Jon, China does not honor US copyright laws and that has been a battle across all industries.  However the fact that us companies still use chinese factories is really a slap in the face to anyone stepping up against knockoffs of any product.

This is such a BS statement .There have been kites made in China by US based companies since Jalbert in the 70's ( i've got one) You can't name more than one  US or European company that sells mass produced kites other than Rev that does not use China. The industry does a good job policing itself and protecting designers . There have been instances but over all respect is given. When Revs patents were up not one company actively sought to challenge them. Rather they sought other ways to enter the framed quad market. To hold the whole Chinese industry of kite factories to this claim is like them saying Americans are to fat and lazy to make their own kites.
Rob

(fixed your quote Rob rob)
No its not a BS statement.  China does not honor patent or copyright laws of other countries.  Its left up to the individual industry and yes there are a lot of industries that will honor them even after they expire.  As for the kite industry, Weifang and his factories are the top clone maker, yet its weifang and his factories that are used by a lot of the kite companies.  PRism and FW are (were) the exceptions that I know of.  If we want to stop the cloning or at least make it really rough to do we need, not only as a consumer base to not buy these, but as an industry to stop using these factories and hold them responsible.  The clones are coming out damn near as fast if not before the official releases and the logical reason for that it the clone factory has the real kite production and the plans or has gotten ahold of a pre release kite somehow.

I'm glad Gomberg won his battle against weifang but that had to have been a hard fight.  The fact that the industry still uses those factories IMO is like telling gomberg they don't care what happens to him and his designs.
I just want to point out that Rob might know what he is talking about....he has been working for kite manufacturers for a few years now (over 20 yet Rob?) and he is the COO of New Tech and has to deal with their own factory (I think the New Tech factory is not one of those  in Weifang - a place not a person - but not 100% certain).

How did Gomberg "win" his battle?   In the situation that Boomertype mentions he sued a former customer of his who had purchased a number of kites direct from China, and in the settlement Gomberg was awarded the chinese kites.   That is not a battle with Weifang manufacturers though, that was an US issue.

Wow he sued his CUSTOMER? Damn, that took balls. And did nothing to solve the problem other than lose a customer and any other potential customers that happen to know the customer that got sued. I mean, the customer could still buy from China, so what was accomplished?

Umm...there is a lot more to this story........a lot more....I am sure that using your googlefu you could find it.......


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on August 14, 2012, 07:44 PM

This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Allen Carter on August 14, 2012, 08:13 PM
Weifang is to kites what Silicon Valley is to computers. It's a city known for kites, not some guy or a specific business.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: rncembal on August 15, 2012, 08:00 AM
You and Gomberg too, I guess.

Gomberg
HQ
Premier
Prism
Skydog
New Tech
Eolo


(fixing your tags Rob rob)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: rncembal on August 15, 2012, 08:03 AM



This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.
I don't see any invoices from Mr Tan's factories what do you know that I don't

(fixed your damn tags again Rob rob)


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on August 15, 2012, 08:19 AM
So I have been trying to research the Gomberg case and it appears it never went to trial. Heres a quote from user jburka from the rev forum:

"I feel it's important to have a little clarification on that one...

First, a disclaimer: David is a friend of mine and I've traveled with him a fair amount. I'm also a customer of Gomberg Kite Productions International and have sent way too much money to New Zealand via Neotsu, OR.


The situation with Chinese manufacturers is such that it would be largely impossible to go after the factories. What David did was to sue an American kiteflier who had imported 5 maxi and over-large octopus kites. His lawyer was kiter and intellectual property lawyer Carl Crowell (many of you have probably seen Carl's Crossdeck cellular kites at festivals).

Obviously there is risk in, as one kiter put it, "suing one of your best customers." But David felt that he had to do so in order to protect the value of the Peter Lynn kites for which he is the American reseller. In addition, he was suing a single person over about $25,000 worth of kites, as opposed to a $300 piece. And finally, my understanding is that the defendant was aware that he was buying knock-offs, but felt that the price was "too good to pass up."

The suit never made it to trial, as David and the defendant reached a settlement, the details of which are private. "

So he settled out of court. Actual details are far and few, I would be curious what the settlement was, as he apparently did sue his customer. And again, this did nothing to solve the problem. The US laws are odd in that its not illegal to own counterfeits or buy them, only to sell them(in fact only France and Italy have laws against buying). So in reality the customer that was sued didnt break the law. If it was so easy to sue purchasers of fakes, Rolex would make more money doing that then they do selling the real ones.

Before I get jumped on by everyone, Im NOT siding with the buyer, but I would love to know the actual facts of the case. I find it very interesting that Gomberg was able to accomplish this.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on August 15, 2012, 08:24 AM
i feel that if the gomberg situation is to be discussed it should be in another thread, not this one.
Personally as I was not involved in the situation in anyway I am staying out of it....there is way too much I do not know in it.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on August 15, 2012, 03:22 PM



This is a helpful clarification. If the same factory/company serves as both the knockoff-maker and the go-to licensee for production, that is very troubling. Though, while I was writing this, I see thief say that Weifang is a place, not a person/company. So, is it indeed the case that the same parties make both knockoffs and legitimate kites? Or are the licensees somehow enabling the knockoff-makers? If not, you would be smearing good (or, at least, approved) actors just for being of the same nationality of the bad.
Weifang is a place, kite factory and a person as well.  The factory itself has at least 2 other names one of which is used by premier and new tech.  Weifang, the person, (the only name I know him by) is a well known counterfieter that runs 3 kite factories(one factory with 3 names?) and there are pics of him at conventions and festivals all over.  He was at the festival where the wala was first publicly shown and within a few weeks wala clones were popping out of his factory before the official release.
I don't see any invoices from Mr Tan's factories what do you know that I don't

(fixed your damn tags again Rob rob)
My appologies if my info is a bit out of date or incorrect since there have been several changes in where kites are made and its not easy to keep track if your not a manufacturer insider.  I know a few kite companies have added or changed factories a few times over the years.  PRism , FW and I believe HQ now use the same factory where a few years ago prism had its own factory set up by one of Marks friends as a watercraft sail shop originally. Who but them knows whats changed or is changing since I found that info.

As for Mr Tan (Weifang Tan as i have seen him called) I have read from a few places that he is associated with Albatross kites, weifang kites, and a couple other weifang province factories where a lot of the clones are coming from.  Unconfirmed info leads to him being responsible for the wala, nirvanah, sea devil, fearless, some rev, possibly the china TNT and other clones that are obviously copies right down to the sail layout.

I have had a few conversations with the owner of passion kites, who thanks to John Baressi, has stopped selling rev clones and is now working on being an official rev dealer in china.  THat is pushing OEM brands over clones as much as possible so all this talk we do is having an affect even if its only a small one.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on June 05, 2013, 12:26 AM
i would fly it. calling it a knock off is like saying every delta style dual line is a knock off.  i have 4 revs custom made by bazzer and i will be looking at one of these for a full vent option.  i dont believe in one company having a monopoly on kites. i also dont believe in kite companies plastering there names all over all there kites.

seems if some makes a cheeper kite that regular people can afford its a good thing.  i have had people tell me its way different and doesnt fly as well. looks a lot different so that should really only be good for kiting in general. thats what this is about right getting families out on the beach. or is that about only one company making money?

pretty sure a few companies make diamond kites and deltas and foils and dual lines.... am i missing something or should we just try to keep kite flying for the uber rich that can afford a full set of revs. whats a full set go for these days pushing 2k right. sorry ill take a cheaper alternative. (not really i own 4 custom b pros but i support kites for the not super rich). and if you tell me about the cheap rev option thats a load of crap. a full set not just one cheap standard sail.  i dont fly in high wind to justify a matching extra vent and the freilein looks cooler flys as well if not better and is more then half the price.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: alien on June 05, 2013, 08:34 AM
I got hooked flying a chinese cheapy and since have purchased 5 US brand kites and the performance and build is enough to skip the cheap knockoffs for me...err i was a bit startled when i discovered my
 collection is all Chinese made but i am completely happy and will soon purchase more.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on June 05, 2013, 10:10 AM
I got hooked flying a chinese cheapy and since have purchased 5 US brand kites and the performance and build is enough to skip the cheap knockoffs for me...err i was a bit startled when i discovered my
 collection is all Chinese made but i am completely happy and will soon purchase more.
There is a difference between a chinese cheapie and a knock off.  X-kites is an example of a cheapie or ultra low budget kite and these fly well but need good amounts of wind. 

i would fly it. calling it a knock off is like saying every delta style dual line is a knock off.  i have 4 revs custom made by bazzer and i will be looking at one of these for a full vent option.  i dont believe in one company having a monopoly on kites. i also dont believe in kite companies plastering there names all over all there kites.

seems if some makes a cheeper kite that regular people can afford its a good thing.  i have had people tell me its way different and doesnt fly as well. looks a lot different so that should really only be good for kiting in general. thats what this is about right getting families out on the beach. or is that about only one company making money?

pretty sure a few companies make diamond kites and deltas and foils and dual lines.... am i missing something or should we just try to keep kite flying for the uber rich that can afford a full set of revs. whats a full set go for these days pushing 2k right. sorry ill take a cheaper alternative. (not really i own 4 custom b pros but i support kites for the not super rich). and if you tell me about the cheap rev option thats a load of crap. a full set not just one cheap standard sail.  i dont fly in high wind to justify a matching extra vent and the freilein looks cooler flys as well if not better and is more then half the price.
WHen it comes to Revs the WHOLE kite is a unique design from the spars to the sail shape and components.  My understanding is all these were patented and/or copywrited.  So any rev look alike is a knockoff period.  Rev does make low budget kite packages (EXP) that are affordable to most people on a lower budget as do many kite makers. Even skyburner has a budget kite set in Jon's freestylist kite.  Were not arguing the merits of cheap kites and I for one will steer someone to a cheap starter kite that I know flies well if its all they can afford.  What we argue is the direct copying and selling of kites and there are exact copies of many big name kites in cheaper materials right down to the graphic layout that don't fly well at all.  Kites like the Rev, TNT, Nirvana, all of Lams kites, Talon, Team next and others i probably havent seen yet are all being cloned and sold by these rip off makers banking on the fact that it looks like a real one and because of that new fliers will assume they fly like the real one but cheaper.  That takes business away from the legit designer/builder and that is wrong.  Also when there is an issue with the kite its not the clone maker that gets the hit its the actual designer that has to deal with it most of the time even if its just posts about how bad it is because it looks the same it gets assumed that the complaint is about the real one by those that don't know any better.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on June 07, 2013, 12:16 AM
200 is not a cheap kite. and its not a full vent. this kite is. it competes with a 450 rev kite.  i have 4 custom rev kites made by bazzer. i have 2 ocius kites made proudly in america. i have 51 prism micron kites made in china. and i plan to have a quad line kite made in china. if rev can sell in china then china can sell in the states.  this kite doesnt take from rev it only adds to the amount of kite flyers on the beach. i like quad line kites and want to see more people out there making them. its goog for kiting. 200 for a cheap rev thats really your answer for ocasional high wind kite flying?  or maybe we could help people get into kiting that would be the better thing to do. sorry if that offends some people but im out for the future of kiting.  not having a high wind options for a quad line kite isnt expectable. a $450 option only or being ridiculed online isnt the best thing for kiting and is why many people dont fly kites. because there isnt an affordable option. most people cant afford 2k for a full rev set up.  the freilein isnt a knock off it doesnt say rev they are not connected to the counterfeiters. they make great kites with great quality that are an option for more then just the super wealthy.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on June 07, 2013, 12:24 AM
revs are high performance pro kites.  pros will use them as soon as other companies start making cheaper quadline kites more people will get into quad line kites and there will be more people wanting to step up to a high quality rev. but for the jo shmo that flies 4 times a year. i would not recommend a rev. i would recommend a 50 buck dual line kite.  200 for a kite that gets used 4 times a year is just dumb. cheap dual lines sell high end dual lines its how things work. its great for kiting. gets quad line kites in peoples hands and gets them on the field and into kiting where they have the chance to then step into a real pro level kite.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: REVflyer on June 07, 2013, 10:23 AM
you know there's a choice you haven't mentioned   Sharing!

I want people to experience the best performance kiting money can buy, but not to incur that expense themselves until they are comfortable with the total.  We are a local club in Washington DC and we ask people of interest to NOT buy a kite for two years, instead come fly ours and see what you connect with personally.  I don't want you to buy a used kite or a knock-off, or to even trying building one yourself until you know more.  When you are seriously hooked the final price will not matter at all.  you'll have given-up something else, maybe you had to eat ketchup sandwiches for 2 summers, whatever it takes.

Why drive your bus in the walmart parking lot, when you can take my race car out onto the track instead?  (I can't fly all the kites I have now, neither can my friends!)

If you have money burning a hole in your pocket, go buy a gortex rain-suit that fits you perfectly, with armpit zips and ankle zips.  Get shoes and a hat that are truly all weather.  That allows you to join us when it's bad weather outside.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on June 07, 2013, 10:55 AM
revs are high performance pro kites.  pros will use them as soon as other companies start making cheaper quadline kites more people will get into quad line kites and there will be more people wanting to step up to a high quality rev. but for the jo shmo that flies 4 times a year. i would not recommend a rev. i would recommend a 50 buck dual line kite.  200 for a kite that gets used 4 times a year is just dumb. cheap dual lines sell high end dual lines its how things work. its great for kiting. gets quad line kites in peoples hands and gets them on the field and into kiting where they have the chance to then step into a real pro level kite.

One of my thoughts on all of this is that Revolution has had a bit of a hand in creating this exact issue....
When High Flyers was open we sold the EXP package with line/handles/video/kite/sleeve for 135$.....and now a EXP - their beginner version even though the rev-heads will try to push new flyers onto the more expensive Pro series - is 199$....reading the descriptions online from shops selling them it looks like there is no reason at all for the price to have jumped up....same things in the package.....but the price went up a lot.....a markedly high percentage that i cannot see benefiting the flyer.......

So...as Revolution has increased their prices they opened the door to allow some other quad line to come in and be a much more affordable step into flying....and if that is a kite from china that looks like that rev shape than so be it...they allowed it....
will Rev ever create a more affordable ~100$ kite again? i doubt it....they are enjoying the money rolling in.....


I would much rather see people share kites out....i know that i have done that with my own kites that i have spares of.....


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on June 07, 2013, 06:41 PM
i dont think rev should make a cheaper version. rev is a staple of performance made in america.  once they start making cheaper products then it lowers the over all quality of the brand. sharing is always good. but im not going to share my custom b pros. i would share the &%#* out of a Freilein though. 


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on June 07, 2013, 07:10 PM
200 is not a cheap kite. and its not a full vent. this kite is. it competes with a 450 rev kite.  i have 4 custom rev kites made by bazzer. i have 2 ocius kites made proudly in america. i have 51 prism micron kites made in china. and i plan to have a quad line kite made in china. if rev can sell in china then china can sell in the states.  this kite doesnt take from rev it only adds to the amount of kite flyers on the beach. i like quad line kites and want to see more people out there making them. its goog for kiting. 200 for a cheap rev thats really your answer for ocasional high wind kite flying?  or maybe we could help people get into kiting that would be the better thing to do. sorry if that offends some people but im out for the future of kiting.  not having a high wind options for a quad line kite isnt expectable. a $450 option only or being ridiculed online isnt the best thing for kiting and is why many people dont fly kites. because there isnt an affordable option. most people cant afford 2k for a full rev set up.  the freilein isnt a knock off it doesnt say rev they are not connected to the counterfeiters. they make great kites with great quality that are an option for more then just the super wealthy.
Your completely missing the point.  I will admit that freilien is doing a good thing by breaking the cheap china crap stigma and they do make some good duals.  However, their windrider is a as near to an exact copy of a rev as you can get minus the panel layout.  Look at the detailed pics posted on their site and everything from sail shape to the unique shaped hole in the fittings is exactly like a rev.  Just because they aren't tied to the big known cloners doesn't mean they aren't making copies. 

Now the quad they make that is their own that I'm thinking of trying out is the windrider "Transeye" model.  I looks like a cross between the spirit quad new tech had a few years back with a bit of rev sonic thrown in and reminds me of a pair of sunglasses.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: KaoS on June 08, 2013, 01:38 AM
i dont think rev should make a cheaper version. rev is a staple of performance made in america.  once they start making cheaper products then it lowers the over all quality of the brand....

Having some of their product made in China and priced cheaper than if they were US made has not lowered the quality of the Prism brand.  What it has done is allow people without boutique wallets to get Mark Reed developed sport kite of good quality without paying a boutique price.

On the few occasions that Prism release US made Quantum Pros, the price reflects the point of origin and there are plenty of people willing to purchase.  Seems to be the best of both worlds.

Yes, people are still prepared to pay a premium price for some US made Revs.  The ones made by Bazzer are especially sought after (and rightly so, I have a bagful!).  But reading comments on the forums over the past few years leads me to believe a lot of people would be happier if the base models EXPs could be made better without a jump in price.  Perhaps there is room for a Chinese manufactured genuine Revolution in the market.

If this were to happen, I suspect the licensed Chinese manufacturer would find it easier preventing other Chinese factories counterfeiting than the parent company.

Just my 2 cents...


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: kiteflyer on June 08, 2013, 04:31 AM
Hi Guys,
   It's been about 10 months since I started this post. After this post being dead for quite a while it seems to have been woken up, so I thought I would give an update on me and the Freilein kite. The Freilein has been sold and I now own 3 Revs. a B-Series Night I purchased new from A Wind OF Change, B-series Mid Vent and a Power Blast. I did keep my first Chinese Quad Kite because it flies so well and I paid $75 RTF.  I must say that if I did not start out with the cheaper Chinese Quad kite I would not have purchased these 3 Revs.  (I'm looking to buy more). So Revolution should be thanking the Chinese for their knockoffs and bringing more people into quad flying. I'm sure that I'm not the only one to test the waters with a cheaper kite and then move on to a better kite.
   Thanks for every ones input, Mark


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on June 09, 2013, 09:59 PM
thats what i like to hear! thats the system working. the revs are nice and its sure easy to get sucked into having a complete set a bpros!! 


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: zero1199 on June 11, 2013, 11:05 AM
I want to say I only fly B PRO and that all I fly! Now a for this, do what you like, and fly what you want. But I have to say you get what you pay for. I love kite any size and shape.  8)
"We all have to start somewhere"


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on July 22, 2013, 01:00 AM
Sorry...links to other shops are not allowed even if being used as an example.... (http://Sorry...links to other shops are not allowed even if being used as an example....)

i think revs patent has expired.  now the shape is the same as any other deltaish dual line.  now hopefully we can get some competition around and more people can afford quad lines.  im still waiting to return my rev bpro its again completely wrong.  ill be sticking with my bpros dont get me wrong there is nothing better then a rev kite.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on July 22, 2013, 11:01 AM
Whats do wrong about your B-pro?  I'd think it be hard to screw up that design.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on July 22, 2013, 11:10 AM
Whats do wrong about your B-pro?  I'd think it be hard to screw up that design.
iirc i saw that there was a request for custom colors that was not fulfilled completely....


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on July 23, 2013, 03:19 AM
Yeah just needs a little touch up. Must have gotten the wires crossed somewhere.  That's what happens when you get fancy awesome custom cool stuff. It gets made by a real person :)

Would I be banished if I got a freilein vented instead of an xtra vent custom bpro. I usually am a fair weather flyer. So I don't fly is 20 plus often enough to justify 500 bucks or whatever amount it is. But I can afford 130 for the couple days a year ill fly it.

Just out of curiosity...

Would you fly with someone or shun them into exile with this kite?

Would you shun or ban a kite store that sold another kite option like this, like they do with dual lines that all look the same?

Note they are not knock offs there is no legal issue. The dual delta for quad line is as free to make as a single delta dual line. 


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on July 23, 2013, 08:41 AM
I would not shun someone for it but explain just what I have always  explained with copies.  Just because revs patent has expired doesn't mean its ok to make clones and claim the design as your own.  You should at least give acknowledment to the original designer. Dual line makers at least give credit to regallo for the wing design and even if some ideas are shaky as to who invented them credit is given to all designers of the early years for the evolution of duals.

 The issue i have with china is they have never honored patenets/copyright laws of anyone and allow the theft as long as its not one of their companies that gets stolen from.

Now IMO the rev extra vent is a bit much for what it is since material wise its the cheapest rev to build.  Screen is about 1/3 the cost of icarex.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on July 23, 2013, 11:36 AM
Nothing really out of china would i say is above the bar. And rev is defiantly the birth and master of the quad line I don't think anyone would ever deny that. But I'm pretty sure if some one in the states started making a similar design we would still be talking about it. 
  And thanks i wasn't curtain who made dual line delta ish kite. Never heard someone give credit where credit is due. I wonder if there were these talks back in the day when more then one company wanted to make a decent dual line...?


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on July 23, 2013, 02:26 PM
Regallo invented the wing shape we use in duals. That's why it's called a regallo wing( conical or cylindrical depending on design). The 3 point bridle can be credited to him as well but more loosely.  There have been debates over who invented what feature and even a few patent fights over it but nothing compared to the rev. Largely due to revs aggressive litigious nature when it comes to their design.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: SparkieRob on July 24, 2013, 12:26 AM
I'd fly with you, Cyphert, if you had a Freileing(?). So long as you had LPG lines.....


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on July 24, 2013, 02:49 AM
i wouldnt use anything else but lpg! unless someone came out with something that felt better on my fingers. i hate how LPG feels on the fingers.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: sunsetflyers on July 27, 2013, 03:56 AM
in my opinion lpg is best last longest its like getting a volkswagon or a cadilac thats just my opinion i have flown with 50 lb when everyboby else flys with 90lb never btoke line yet have some lpg 10 years old


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Cyphert on August 06, 2013, 05:58 PM
what would happen if some one made some knock of lpg lines!!! im sure some one would sue someone... and i wonder why the kite flying boom, busted.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on August 07, 2013, 12:22 AM
Your logic is a bit flawed there. Kite flying was considered a fad for the most part. There are many reasons it lost popularity and believe it or not, lawsuits had no real impact on it. Similarly why kneeboarding lost out to wake boarding. Something new came along to get people's interest and fun money.

As for your line example, Shanti brought spectra into the kite realm with permission from NASA and iirc NASA made the fiber open to all makers in all types of line making. Shanti only patenting their braiding technique and coating which is why NASA ( and Dupont?) went to them in the first place. They had the best braiding system around.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: coop on September 20, 2013, 12:10 PM
Question about Rev customs,
I see alot of sails that are FAR from Revs offerings, are these sails made by individuals? And if so to avoid Rev suing them do they have to pay a royalty?



Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: skb on September 20, 2013, 12:31 PM
If anyone wants to see a Freilein Windrider quad first-hand, I'll have one at the Whidbey Island Kite Festival this weekend.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Ca Ike on September 20, 2013, 02:03 PM
Rev has done several different thing when it comes to customs.  There is the masterpiece series done by rev, designed by the likes of randy tom, Willie Koch and a few others.  At one time you could do your own custom sail and pay a small fee to rev for the name rights and there are those that bought revs and have made  modifications to the sail or new sails of their own panel design. IIRC Bazzer used to and maybe still does full custom revs out of your panel ideas.  As long as your not selling them it should be ok for you to make your own sail.


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: thief on September 20, 2013, 02:26 PM
Willi has never done a rev....you are probably referring to Elliot Schook woven and mesh pieces...darn nice kites...

also, do not leave out that there are a couple of makers who are allowed to build also for Rev...i know that Martin Lester did the revs for the Decorators (iirc Carl Robertshaw did some as well? - and both of these guys have their own Masterpieces Revs too)...and the Gonzalez brothers do the printed ones as well...


Title: Re: Freilein Windrider Quad Kite
Post by: Broady on February 06, 2014, 05:56 AM
I have a couple of Chinese quad line kites and a couple of Rev's.  I even tried to make my own (it does fly, but far from perfect) but it cost me more to make my own than it did to get one delivered to my door from china, and the Chinese one is built very nice. I would love a full set of b series revs, or even just the one, but just can't afford it.
I just like to see more kites in the sky, wherever they come from.  Even if the sky is full of 10 kites from the beach shop.
If anyone doesn't want to fly with me when I've got the Chinese kites out then that's up to them, but I would never judge someone for the kite that they fly