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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: damp_weather on September 08, 2012, 03:17 PM



Title: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 08, 2012, 03:17 PM
Hi,

I was wondering on what are the thoughts out there about really low wind SUL dual line kites.

To explain my interest - I usually fly inland in some very pleasant playing fields, which often have very low winds, say 3mph collapsing to near 0 mph.  My two favourite kites for here are Prism QPro SULs, and Benson Inner Spaces.  (The Inner Space is the only UK manufactured kite mentioned here - so I thought I should post on the USA kite forum. - For those  unfamiliar with an Inner Space, think Skyburner Pro Dancer, but less precise steering, and maybe more flat-spinny - Would love try a Pro Dancer sometime, instead of just watching at a festival.)  The Inner Space really does fly comfortably down to 0, but it doesn't do half-axel and pitch based tricks that well.  The QPro SUL does all the tricks I can do and hope to do, but becomes a challenge to keep in the air below... ...well I don't know, but in the days 2 years ago when I could run a wind meter while the kite was flown by someone else, it used to be around 2 to 2 1/2mph.

At this point I should say that I am getting old and lazy.  So the idea of trotting around the field at 2+mph - ~4mph when recovering ground, is exhausting.  The occasional 360 is fine.  360s for most of a flying session should be left to the young fit folk.  On the other hand, walking slowly backwards to keep an Inner Space up in still air is fine.

For a long time I have wanted a kite that does the tricks of the QPro, and flies in lower winds. Besides QPro SULs and Inner Spaces, I have a 2003 style Prism 3D, ITRIX and Prism Ozone.  The 3D is hard work.  The ITRIX certainly tricks, but seems relatively unbalanced outdoors.  The Prism Ozone trick and windwise seems a half-way house between the QPro SUL and Inner Space: stops flying between those two kites and is more tricky than an Inner Space, and less than a QPro SUL.

Last winter/spring I bought a Skyburner Ocius SUL, as the new Skyshark Zero spars seemed to offer exciting possibilities.

In direct comparison to the QPro SUL, I was disappointed.  It is probably slightly more trick oriented and being a slightly smaller kite a little more difficult to steer, but seems to have exactly the same lower wind performance - no more, no less.  Now perhaps I am being unfair in that I compared my favourite QPro SUL with a new Ocius SUL on exactly the same weight and length lines.  - The Ocius being a slightly smaller kite, perhaps the comparison should be with it on smaller lines.  But that also might be a bad comparison as the kite would not go so high in the sky and pick up what little wind there was.  And the other reason that it may be an unfair comparison is that the QPro SUL is 4 or 5 years old and has been flown for many hours.   As John Chilese recently posted about, kites often seem to become better fliers with age.  I have certainly found this true to a point with standard QPros.  When there was my partner and I who were trying to learn pairs, we could directly compare a new kite bought to make a pair with the older one of the same kind, and the QPro standards seemed to need several hours in the air before the newer kite would fly as fast and in as low wind as the older one.  Also when the QPro SUL was new I used to remove the outer standoffs to get it to fly at its low end.  Now I leave them in place as it seems to fly lower than I remember.  So perhaps a fairer thing to do would be put the QPro in a cupboard and to fly the Ocius SUL only for a season and then to compare it with the QPro SUL.   

Anyway, I was thinking of buying a Prism 4D next.  Videos show it being quite tricky, and perhaps the sail is flat enough that it would give the Inner Space a run for its money.  But in Tom Paterson's posting selling his Ocius SUL, he says that it flies at least as low as the 4D.  So perhaps that is not the way forward.

- So what is low wind kite nirvana?  - The "The Morning in Venice" video is a favourite - perhaps the Nirvana SE WW is the answer?  - Anyone know what the wind speed was in the video??   

Besides "Drive to a windy hill." or "Train to trot backwards faster and longer on the gym's running machine."   What's your thoughts?



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: chilese on September 08, 2012, 03:30 PM
Not quite sure what you are asking for.

Your explanations were very good.

Really, really low wind kites (full-size) are in the group of:

ProDancer SUL
Benson Inner Space
Pro Wren
Wren (smaller)
Synchro

Any tricks they do will be of the spin variety (axel, 540, Taz Machine (surprisingly), Slot Machine)

Almost as low wind are kites like:

Prism Vapor
Amazing (forgot who made it)
Shadow (barely)

Then you start getting into the trickier SULs:

Ocius SUL
Nirvana SUL (the only Nirvana I really like)

Above that, there are other kites labelled SUL, but they lie.
Although the kites are trickier than other SULs.

Did you have a specific question?


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: lineman on September 08, 2012, 04:10 PM
John, to chime in the amazing is a level one kite.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: tpatter on September 08, 2012, 04:12 PM
Low wind flying, especially doing tricks, is all about technique.   You will find that the better your fly with a minimum of wasted effort and only the needed input strength, the easier it is to fly a heavier kite in very low wind.

I like the 4D, but it is very hard to trick.  Still, there is something about it that appeals to me.  It does not fly at all like a standard kite - it is super light, very twitchy, and has no precision to speak of.   It does do pinwheels, axels, fades, and lazy stuff pretty well.  Also, it backspins.  I've never flown an inner space that I recall, but it seems well regarded - perhaps the 4D is similar in ability.

The Ocius is much much easier to trick and feels like a normal kite for the lack of a better description.  All my inputs for tricks were reduced in strength, but similar otherwise.  The 4D requires a different technique.

Good luck.

Tom





Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: DWayne on September 08, 2012, 04:24 PM
Sounds to me like you need a TNT Zero.
https://vimeo.com/14239282

Denny


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: country85 on September 08, 2012, 06:26 PM
I just picked up a New Tech Desire Ul, it's a gross design, very well made kite. I haven't ever been able to do that many tricks with any kite.  but if you want something to fly in next to nothing the Desire does rather well for the money.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: RobB on September 08, 2012, 06:46 PM
Sounds to me like you need a TNT Zero.
https://vimeo.com/14239282

Denny

That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: country85 on September 08, 2012, 07:54 PM
Well I know what my next kite's gonna be lol


Title: Re: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: madhabitz on September 08, 2012, 10:08 PM
What about a Talon SUL? Reviews are good on those.  Anyone here have the details?


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on September 09, 2012, 08:50 AM
And then there is this one:

https://vimeo.com/40535360

The Spectre XUL is perfect for when you just want to be able to fly in a Zen like experience in next to no winds. Tricks are extremely limited however. Measured wind in this video are below what all available windmeters could show. Upperlimited is about 4mph.


Title: Re: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: bryan beasley on September 09, 2012, 11:33 AM
What about a Talon SUL? Reviews are good on those.  Anyone here have the details?

Ermmm... 180g - absolutely sweet floatiness. ;-)

Bryan


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Charles P on September 09, 2012, 10:48 PM
Don't buy a 4D, they do not trick very well in my experience. I bought one but I only use it if nothing I have fly's. I'm in the process of aquireing a true SUL myself and the money I spent on my 4D could have helped me to buy a true tricking SUL. I'll appologize right now to any 4D fans out there but that kite does not work for me.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 11, 2012, 02:51 PM
Thank you for all your reponses and suggestions,

To John,

I didn't have a specific question.  Rather I seemed to be coming to a hiatus in my low wind flying, and was wondering what to do to take things further.  It is more a case of reflecting on where I am up to and deciding where to take things next.

I like the list categorising the kites. Interesting to see that you put the Prism Vapor in a different category to the Inner Space etc..   - I have never seen a Vapor in real life, but had thought it was so light that it was as flyable as the Inner Space but a little more controllable because of the deeper stand-offs.  In essence a sort of Prism Ozone, only lighter and with stiffer leading edges?

Don't know anything about the Synchro.  The Wren and Pro Wren would also be on my possible list - saw a Wren flying quite happily on ~12 foot lines at the edge of windless arena, except that these kites are no longer made.   Suspect the Wren's particularly good low wind performance is due to the extra thin carbon rods in sleeves stiffening the sail (i.e. the sail doesn't have to be tensioned by the wind to assume aerodynamic curves).


To Tom,

From the videos, the 4D is more trickable than the Inner Space - Check out Piero's Inner Space video on the Benson kites site - That's also my experience of what the Inner Space can do trickwise.  (Believe that zippy8 managed to backspin one - once?)


To Denny, etc..
If that TNT Zero is flying in just 1-3kph, Wow! I'm really impressed.  Unfortunately I also don't understand much German.  Certainly not enough to order a kite.


To madhabitz,
Talons are made about 25 miles from where I often work and fly during the week. And their creator Mark Clements is a nice person, so I am inclined to buy from him.  However compared to many other makes, Talons and Tridents tend to like slightly higher winds, and Mark honestly lists his SUL as for 2 to 10mph.  If this is related to his local environment, it is funny how much difference a few miles makes. 


To ae:
Thanks,  The moves in that video are like an Inner Space on longer lines.  But your newest video shows a lazy Susan and riser/lifter, which is a step up from what I can get an Inner Space to do. And elsewhere it says you are using 10daN lines and the kite weights 66g (custom rods) or 80g (breeze rods).  I've never been able to buy anything lighter than 20daN lines.  It will be interesting to see what this develops into.   

I think that the Inner Space at a "heavy" 140g compensates for using "weighty" everyday Icarex fabric by having a larger sail area for the kite's width - i.e. its aspect ratio is lower.  This helps with lift to weight ratio but reduces performance in pitch moves.
 


...I think I am getting to the point of deciding that the best thing to do is to fly the Ocius SUL regularly for a while and see how that progresses.   Usually I fly on 75ft x 50lb lines, Perhaps I should try it on a set of 15m x 50lb lines.

Peter   



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Craig on September 11, 2012, 04:10 PM
You already have all the low wind kites you need, more practice will get you further than buying something new.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: madhabitz on September 11, 2012, 09:46 PM

That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Have you ever seen one in the Swap Meet?


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: madhabitz on September 11, 2012, 09:54 PM
 Bryan: Floaty is good!! Thanks ;-)

Peter:  I think part of what you said is eluding me because I am feeling some confusion. I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?

You have an Ocius SUL? Well there you go. ;-)




(Edited to fix Bryan's misspelled (by me) name. My apologies)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: tpatter on September 11, 2012, 10:46 PM

That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Have you ever seen one in the Swap Meet?

Well, you can always hope! 

I've seen only 2 TNT on this forum that I recall, and neither was a Zero.  Of course, Hugo is the new guy on the block by the same designer(s) (not sure), so the way these things go, you could see one show up once the zero version of the Hugo comes out, sometime, in a galaxy not too far away.  :)

Anyhow, and I kid you not, if you do not have the patience to wait for a Zero to hit the swap (in either CA, Germany, or some other forum), then you will need some level of patience as there is a 2 month build queue on the TNT.  It would be an interesting to see how you can get one more quickly - swap or build.

When I first flew the TNT UL, I knew the Zero would be pretty darn sweet.  I thought, put this floaty laid-back style in an SUL and the toes will curl.  Now, it looks like I will have to outdrawn you on the PM!  :)

Either way, I really want to fly one.

Tom


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: madhabitz on September 12, 2012, 12:26 AM

Now, it looks like I will have to outdrawn you on the PM!  :)

Either way, I really want to fly one.

Tom


My PM trigger finger is getting better and better, so you can try if you want.  :-*

I'd like to fly one too.

Nancy


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Allen Carter on September 12, 2012, 10:10 AM
I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?


The lower the wind speed, the more wind quality becomes an issue. 2MPH on that soccer field in Ripon is a LOT different than 2MPH on the beach in Seaside. Wind quality is often determined by location.

That said, skill and experience is a MUCH bigger issue at 2MPH than at 3MPH. In other words, the lower the wind speed, the harder it is to fly regardless of the location.

As for the original post, a kite that is easier to "fly" in light wind than a QPro SUL or Ocius SUL will be harder to "trick". Two things that make a kite easy to do modern tricks with, sail shape and balance, make the kite harder to keep flying in a straight line when the wind is low. There's a pretty strict trade off in light wind between ease of flight and trickability.



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on September 12, 2012, 12:35 PM
The air temperature also plays a role. Hotter air is less dense, less air in the same volume of space, less pressure it can create.
Moisture also plays a part for the same reasons.

The hotter and drier the air, aka summer the more wind you need compared to a moist cold winder day. The difference can be easily as 1mph in difference between been able to fly or having to work to keep the kite even in the air.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Wayner on September 12, 2012, 02:31 PM
The hotter and drier the air, aka summer the more wind you need compared to a moist cold winder day. The difference can be easily as 1mph in difference between been able to fly or having to work to keep the kite even in the air.

That explains my summer here in the desert  ???

All the moving around did help me get in shape ;)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: chilese on September 12, 2012, 11:20 PM
Actually, dry air is more dense* denser than humid air.

Cold, dry, low altitude.    Good

Hot, humid, high altitude.    Bad

*Changed to the incorrect form for zippy8.



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: zippy8 on September 13, 2012, 06:52 AM
Actually, dry air is denser than humid air.
"More dense", please  ;)

I've just got my sticky paws on a pristine example of an SUL for really low winds - 122 grammes of Synchro #1 Hybrid. Sail still crisp, bridle clean, fittings rotted to dust.  :o Pictures to follow but I anticipate it working like a charm in the very sub-zero and low relative humidity "winds" of Central Finland come wintertime.

Mike.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: chilese on September 13, 2012, 10:17 AM
Looking forward to the photos Mike.

What do you plan to use for the new fittings?

Just for zippy8
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: zippy8 on September 13, 2012, 11:33 AM
Looking forward to the photos Mike.

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-rY7fFj1S-9s/UFH4STFagRI/AAAAAAAAJII/mI7TDkRblw0/s800/SANY0079.JPG)
Few Europeans will recognise the graphic.

Quote
What do you plan to use for the new fittings?

The extensive notes call for 3/16 x 1/32 Superthane and I shall endeavour to comply.

Quote
Just for zippy8
[url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense[/url] ([url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense[/url])

I do not dispute that the word denser exists, I assert that it is not correct in that context. And I both note and applaud your amendment  :)

Mike.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: chilese on September 13, 2012, 05:32 PM
Very nice Synchro Mike.

You are a fan of black if I recall.

Nice of you to go after NOS fittings instead of going TAPA.

Any applause I get from zippy8 is welcome.

I worship the ground you float above.  :)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on September 13, 2012, 06:14 PM
Nice Syncro :)
I have one as well.

And good call on the connectors, those TAPA are way to heavy.
I fixed mine up with PTFE tubing as connectors, works like a charm.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: RobB on September 13, 2012, 06:48 PM

That was spectacular. I will find it hard not to buy the next one that pops up in the swap meet.



Have you ever seen one in the Swap Meet?

Everything might pass through the Swap Meet, if you keep your eyes open, you can grab some great kites and/or great bargains. Half the kites I have I bought second hand.
I really want to fly a TNT, but don't want to spend that kind of cake to just try one out, maybe I'll like it, maybe I won't...


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 14, 2012, 05:23 PM
Peter:  I think part of what you said is eluding me because I am feeling some confusion. I'm not sure how location would change 2mph. Wouldn't 2mph be 2mph no matter the location? I guess I am wondering if your head is challenging the 2mph claim?

Dear Nancy,
When I wrote that "Mark honestly lists his SUL as for 2 to 10mph", I meant that he lists it for winds starting at 2mph, while others claim their SULs can handle lower wind speeds.
I believe what Mark says.  However having seen his kites flying at festivals and having tried one myself, I think that he tends to build them slightly heavier than others in order to having them handle and trick the way he wants.   
I wonder if the winds around Kettering are better than where I fly.  I suspect that they are higher, or maybe Mark prefers higher winds, and nowadays I prefer lower winds.
 


Here is a little background from some years ago which explains some of how I got to where I am today:

Back in 2007/2008 we met Mark Clements at a fly meet.  The winds that day were repeatedly dying to around 1 to 3mph. In those days the Talon hadn't come out, but Mark leant me his Trident UL to see how I liked it.  - I really struggled to keep it airborne.     The only kites that seemed to be coping that day were a couple of Prism Ozones (one was ours), which were limited in their tricking, and a Deep Space (before its UL came out), but flyers pointed out that it was being flown by Andy Wardley.  He kept on "racheting" it into the air.

At that time we already had a Deep Space of our own, and also a Fury UL that fell out of the sky at 2 1/2 mph and below.  I don't recall us having an Inner Space at that point.  It was the experience with the Trident UL that forced us to accept that we would have look further afield for light wind kite, and be prepared to order from other countries.  As we could keep the Prism QPro standard in the air down to around 2mph, and we generally liked the kite, it seemed a fair bet that a QPro SUL would come closer than any locally available UL to what we wanted.  - But where to get one from?

- We ended up tracking one down in a shop in Florida I think. - We liked that one so much that about 8 months to a year later we got a second from a shop I think somewhere in the US mid-west. 

Weight versus size wise, I think that Talons are generally heavier than many competing kites.   Mark has weight in the kite (e.g. the leading edges besides any tail weight) to help in tricking.  So looking at the statistics for size and weight, I decided not to buy his kites for very light winds.   

Quote
You have an Ocius SUL? Well there you go. ;-)
:)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 15, 2012, 02:21 AM
Dear Craig,

You already have all the low wind kites you need,
I am coming round that that way of thinking. - Am not expecting to buy another kite soon.

Quote
more practice will get you further than buying something new.
Arggh! - You have mentioned the "practice" word!

To explain, this is a very sensitive subject with me.
So often English flyers have told me to: practice, practice, Practice - but practice what?  Keep attempting a manoeuvre or trick in the hope that one day it will work, and then somehow it will keep working?  Maybe this is how others manage to learn...

Craig, we really appreciated you teaching my partner the axel at Portsmouth in 2009.  After years of "practicing", a few minutes tuition and she had done her first reliable axels.  We had something to solidify then.  At that point I had been doing axels for a couple of years, but hadn't been able to pin-point where Debbie was going wrong.
And further back, when we started, Piero Serra (before he became famous) taught me the fade launch and lateral role.  I had to experiment with the fade launch to understand what was happening and then it became reliable - this was some years later - but nevertheless we really appreciated him helping us.  Saved probably tens even hundreds of hours of experimenting.  Also he showed me how to axel into the window, or was it how to axel out of the window?  Which ever it was, it was the one I couldn't do before, and I never forgot the lesson - something learnt very fast.

Beyond a certain point, videos don't appear to work.  Very often, when I stumble across how to do something, I discover what was missing from the video description.  But it is very slow progress.

It would be nice to have more tricks tuition, but I don't know if it is possible. - Not only regarding peoples' time, but also whether really good flyers consciously know how they do tricks, and can describe and demonstrate that to others, identifying and correcting faults as well as showing the correct way.
(I am only talking about tricks tuition here.  In the UK precision flying and ballet is excellently taught at STACK boot-camp etc..)


So practice - I have to accept that at the rate I am progressing, it should be many more tens of years before I have mastered the standard range of tricks.  Have to grab each little breakthrough as it occurs.  But after several years of frequently travelling to watch and fly near my betters and generally learning very little more than in their hands my kite will do the trick I am attempting, I am happier to fly locally, surrounded by friendly dogs and their owners, all ages playing football, and occasional outdoor fitness classes.  That way I can experiment without looking too incompetant at the tricks I can't do right, and getting more and more frustrated at no-one explaining.

In the positive words of Dean Parsons at the start of his "Progress" kite video (//www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4-w6vHU31w):
"WE LEARNED SOMETHING VERY IMPORTANT TODAY...
...WE FOUND ANOTHER WAY THAT DOESN'T WORK.
WE MUST KEEP OUR MINDS OPEN AND TRY AGAIN."

...for me, after a good flying session, usually that has to count as progress.

The other maxim which I learned the hard way (by repeatedly ignoring the last bit of it) that is good for life in general and kite flying in particular is:
"If at first you don't succeed,
  try, try and try again.
And then give up.
  It is no use being a dam fool about it."


- Which brings us back to the subject of getting more kites.  In the absence of good tuition, trying different kites is an attempt to learn through new experiences.  Sometimes it works.  Thanks to the QPro SUL, I learnt to taz before I knew that was what it was called, and that it was supposed to be such a hard trick that I wasn't supposed to be able to do it before mastering loads of others.  The kite just repeatedly handed out this neat manoeuvre.  Many months later I found that it couldn't be done on a Deep Space so easily.  It took a couple of months to figure out what to do on the DS.
- And even if I don't get the benefit of a short cut to new tricks, I was hoping from this thread to find something that flew as comfortably in stillish air as an Inner Space, but gave a different experience regarding different tricks or maybe flying indoors.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on September 15, 2012, 07:58 AM
Well, to narrow it down. I think first it should be established what exactly is the desired behavior and meaning of flying.

Does the kite flies when someone can keep it in the air indoors? Well, Thors Hammer is a indoor kite then and its wind range starts at 0. Its even trickable. But we all can agree i think that it is not an indoor kite or that its wind range does not starts at 0.
On the other hand a Amazing can be flown with little efford indoors and outdoors in minimal wind. It is also pretty trickable. But it also needs a good deal of pilot movement to do so. Will it fly in 1km/h wind purely on its own? no it won't.
The key here is that with practice you can get pretty much all modern kites to be able to be flown in zero winds because you get to know how and when to use your body to generate the wind the kite needs to fly. But does that give each modern kite a wind range that should start at 0, just because someone can actually can get the kite up in such conditions? Or do we state the wind range at which the kite will fly without pilot movement on its own under wind power? The difference is pretty significant.

In case 1, if you can do a 360 with the kite, congratulation, by that definition your current kite already will go as low as possible. No need for a new kite.
But if you want less stress doing so, instead of trying to break the world record in backwards running all day long, maybe you just want to have to sway back and forth to help the kite along when it needs it. In such case you need a way different kite then in case 1.

Now, if you want to throw tricks into the mix, things get more complicated, since tricks need a certain wing configuration and mass to be able to be performed.

Here is the point where you have to decide what do you actually want from your ultra low wind kite, just fly and relax, or tasks your endurance trying to keep it in the air? Most likely anything something in between.

Just fly and relax with minimal trick potential, the Spectre XUL will be your thing.
Next up the ladder i would rate the Pro Dancer SUL, Amazing, Vapor and other big indoor wings like a Syncro.
More trickable, needing more wind, TNT Zero, NRG Zero, Veyron SUL, Ocius SUL with the zero air tubes and so on.
Next step, more work, but not more tricks, but cheaper then the others, most normal SULs.
Then the actual work starts to keep your kite even in the air

The choices are there, its a matter of what do you actually want and how much you are willing to spend.


Title: Re: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: DD on September 15, 2012, 08:55 AM
Something I found in my quest of the holy grail of sul kites. In zero or next to zero wind some kites need very little forward speed. Once I realized this my 360s became more managable. Ymmv


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 16, 2012, 01:40 PM
Thanks ae, DD, and to you all,

You have given me things to think about.
I compared the weight to (estimated) sail area of some of my kites and several you suggested, and was shocked to realise just how relatively heavy a QPro SUL is.   It is fascinating that it flies as well as it does.     
I will try to give the Ocius SUL more air time.
My regular flying stops when the clocks go back in October and the evenings are too dark for flying after work.  -  Then there will be plenty of time to do repairs from the summer's flying and cogitate on what to do in the new year, and just maybe order another kite and get new experiences.  We'll see what happens.

Many thanks,

Peter


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: John Welden on September 16, 2012, 09:20 PM
It sucks to struggle in light winds, but if you put in enough time you'll quit searching for SUL's that are easier to fly. The funny thing is that the ridiculously light SUL's are actually kind of hard to fly. You must have tons of finesse to fly a piece of tissue paper thats framed in carbon splinters.

In my opinion, once you get enough light wind experience, it's the most enjoyable type of flying.  I've always thought of kites as delicate objects that should be guided around with grace. The slam bam stuff is great, but it's never quite felt as magical and beautiful to me.  (I have an obsession with slow flight and it gets me a bit more excited than others. ::))


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: asburyparkjohn on September 18, 2012, 08:50 PM
Lams Tatto (Fearless SSUL). As in life ... if you have a problem ... throw alot of money at it ... the problem soon goes away ... the problem being to trick this ALL BLACK kite in 1 mph winds ...  :D. In those rare cases where it does not go past 1/2 the height of the central wind window with lines untwisted as this engances height gain I fly the Benson Inner Space and fade it for 15 minutes waiting for the wind to pick up  8) 8) 8).

APJ


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Hadge on September 19, 2012, 05:11 AM
Lams Tatto (Fearless SSUL). As in life ... if you have a problem ... throw alot of money at it ... the problem soon goes away ... the problem being to trick this ALL BLACK kite in 1 mph winds ...  :D. In those rare cases where it does not go past 1/2 the height of the central wind window with lines untwisted as this engances height gain I fly the Benson Inner Space and fade it for 15 minutes waiting for the wind to pick up  8) 8) 8).

APJ

Sadly buying any of Lam's kites this side of the pond requires a LOT of money - After UK import taxes we pay in £ what you pay in $! Thats why Fearless kites are such rare beasts over here. :(


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: asburyparkjohn on September 19, 2012, 04:27 PM
Same here ... what's a Talon, TNT, R-Sky ... sure second hand, but if they tear, break, need modifications, etc. ... in plain English ... it SUCKS! Geography ... that is ...  :'( :'( :'(


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: jeepersjoey on September 24, 2012, 06:14 AM
I have many SUL kites.  I often fly when no others are flying.

Remarkably, they complain that they have nothing to fly and the winds are not enough.

Me, I have plenty of practice flying in light winds and I am always flying.

I strongly feel there is something to be said about flying in 0 to a whisper's breath.

Anyone can stand still and fly a kite when there is wind.  Very few can fly when there is none.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: MartinG on September 24, 2012, 11:08 AM
Just for zippy8
[url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense[/url] ([url]http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dense[/url])


What sort of dictionary gives "denseness" as the noun, rather than "density"?  eurgghhh! (this last word is so ugly it may well have an entry too, I haven't checked)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on September 30, 2012, 04:29 AM
Quote
I have many SUL kites.  I often fly when no others are flying.
Remarkably, they complain that they have nothing to fly and the winds are not enough.
Me, I have plenty of practice flying in light winds and I am always flying.
I strongly feel there is something to be said about flying in 0 to a whisper's breath.
Anyone can stand still and fly a kite when there is wind.  Very few can fly when there is none.
There are different issues where I fly.  While I got competant at low wind flying elsewhere from having to do it, nowadays I do it because it is very pleasant to be out on a lovely still evening after work.  The sunsets are often spectacular, and that is when the winds usually drop.  However I have often wondered if my flying puts others (who are not kite flyers) off from coming out as they might think that the weather is less pleasant than it is.

About a month ago, in one of the rare windows of a few fine calm days between the very wet weather we have been having in England this summer* a couple brought onto the field a ~4 ½ foot high home-made flying Chinese lantern.  You could see from their looks of uncertainty that they were wondering if it was appropriate conditions to launch it.  Presumably the near-still air looked ideal when they left home, but there is this kite floating around the sky.  Anyway I landed the QPro SUL and watched how they got on.  The lantern went more or less straight up and then started heading south.  Its altitude was a little less than the spire of the local church, which would make it about 100 feet.  2 minutes 40 seconds after launch it disappeared behind some trees that were in the field beyond the church graveyard.

There are a couple of soccer (football) pitches around us.  I was standing about 1 ½ soccer pitch lengths away from the graveyard, which I guess is about ½ a soccer pitch length across, and the trees in the far field were say another soccer pitch or 2 further on.  A soccer pitch is roughly 100m long.  So some maths suggests that the lantern was doing an average of between 4 and 6mph.  By comparison the wind measurement at ground level, measured by dropping freshly mowed grass cuttings from an outstretched hand and watching how far they dropped away from beneath the hand, was around 2 feet, which is when know I can fly a QPro SUL on 50lb x 75 feet lines.  So the lantern’s flight gave an idea of how much difference there is in windspeed at ground and a bit above kite flying height.


Back on the search for different SUL for under QPro SUL flying speeds, I have been looking at the ratio of a kite’s weight verses its “effective” sail area, where “effective” approximates to the area that is calculated from the width and height of the assembled kite, rather than the area of the sail fabric when the sail is laid flat on a table.  The idea is that this figure will give a rough idea of the relative effort (= flyers speed running around) to fly the kite.  Early figures don’t contain any surprises other than suggesting that the Ocius SUL should be much more floaty than I have experienced.  When scales have been accurately calibrated I’ll post some details of the results.


* A standing joke is that it has been the wettest drought in history.  – This is based in fact as for the first couple of months of record breaking deluges in Southern England there were hose pipe bans.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: zippy8 on September 30, 2012, 06:48 AM
Back on the search for different SUL for under QPro SUL flying speeds, I have been looking at the ratio of a kite’s weight verses its “effective” sail area, where “effective” approximates to the area that is calculated from the width and height of the assembled kite, rather than the area of the sail fabric when the sail is laid flat on a table.
If you are feeling especially brave and experimental you should be able to improve minimum wind speed of your favoured light wind kite by flattening it out (flattening it out even more in the case of the QPro SUL which already had this done IIRC). Either longer spreaders and shorter standoffs or go the whole way and cut out a slice from the sail itself.

There is a very definite point of hugely diminishing returns when it comes to simply reducing the mass of the kite. Spaghetti spars might mean the kite is in the air in little more than an imperfect vacuum but it may turn out to be an unrewarding flying experience.

Mike.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on October 02, 2012, 02:59 PM
Back on the search for different SUL for under QPro SUL flying speeds, I have been looking at the ratio of a kite’s weight verses its “effective” sail area, where “effective” approximates to the area that is calculated from the width and height of the assembled kite, rather than the area of the sail fabric when the sail is laid flat on a table.
If you are feeling especially brave and experimental you should be able to improve minimum wind speed of your favoured light wind kite by flattening it out (flattening it out even more in the case of the QPro SUL which already had this done IIRC). Either longer spreaders and shorter standoffs or go the whole way and cut out a slice from the sail itself.
QPro standard versus SUL - This is an interesting one.  The sails are the same size.  The lower spreaders, spine and leading edges are pretty well the same length.  And the spreaders are attached to the leading edges at the same points. 
As you write, the standoffs are slightly shorter on the SUL.  But because of the same length of lower spreaders and leading edges the "effective" sail area appears to be almost the same, but because of the shorter standoffs I guess the sail is under a little less tension.
I write almost as there is an exception.  - The upper spreader on the SUL is a little shorter, which pulls the upper leading edges together loosening the sail near the nose.  I think this has been discussed elsewhere as a way of improving the aerodynamic performance (lift) of a kite.

Mike, you might remember us corresponding some years ago in a thread on the other place regarding whether used Icarex kites fly better because Icarex sails stretch with use.  I still haven't managed to get a brand new QPro standard to compare with the by now very thoroughly broken in old ones, but intend to do this in the next few months.  It will be interesting to see if there is any difference in sail size, or it is just down to the Icarex becoming softer with use.   


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: mikenchico on October 03, 2012, 02:46 PM
I don't know how much shorter those standoffs are, is it possible the length could be attributed to the lighter sparing? The full length standoffs could flex the spreader and possibly pull in the wingtips too much changing the flight characteristics.



Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Allen Carter on October 03, 2012, 02:54 PM
I don't know how much shorter those standoffs are, is it possible the length could be attributed to the lighter sparing? The full length standoffs could flex the spreader and possibly pull in the wingtips too much changing the flight characteristics.



Yeah, it's pretty common when framing an SUL for the standoffs to be 1/4" or more shorter than the STD weight parts. The lower spreader would otherwise bow too much, effectively shortening it. A standard sail might be a bit looser due to the shorter standoff but the overall geometry isn't effected as much.  Many SULs have purpose built sails made to match these and other frame geometry changes. I don't know about the QPro SUL.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Kantaxel on October 03, 2012, 03:05 PM
.
QPro standard versus SUL - This is an interesting one.  The sails are the same size.

   
[/quote]

They are the same size finished. (framed and assembled) However the SUL sail is cut differently than the three others.  (Std, UL and Vent)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on October 06, 2012, 02:55 PM
Mikenchico and Allen,

Yes you are right: 
Here are lengths of the standoffs (measured from sail to standoff tip):

QPro Standard inner: 285mm
QPro Standard outer: 274mm
QPro SUL inner: 272mm
QPro SUL outer: 260mm

a 12-13mm differnce is in English 1/2 inch.

I measured the lower spreaders' distortion by fully assembling the kites and placing them belly down on the floor, and then measuring between the lower leading edges and the floor at the lower spreader elbows.  The distances were:

QPro Standard: 56 and 59mm
QPro SUL: 59 and 74mm

..Visually it looked as if the standard's lower spreaders were more distorted because their distortion is more concentrated at their thin ends.

Jim,
I have been comparing two kites made by Mei, the SUL in November 07 and the standard in May 08.  - In view of an email from my local Prism agent on delivery times, stating that Prism are expecting a delivery of QPros in 3 to 4 weeks, I am wondering of QPros are still made by the Prism team in Seattle.  And are they made exactly the same way nowadays??

Anyway I compared the standard and SUL sails by assembling the leading edges and then laying the sails over each other, both flat on the floor, and in the air with the sails stretched between spine and wingtip.  The SUL's nose protection is slightly shorter, and there is extra protection at the standard's sail grabbers.  Also the leading edge sleeves are built from lighter material in the SUL.  The only significant difference in sail shape or size that I can find is that the tail of the standard sail extends 15mm beyond that of the SUL. -i.e. it extends further beyond the spine.  I am unsure about where the deviation in trailing edge that gives this difference starts - probably around the standoffs.
This difference that cumulates in 15mm difference at the sail tail tip was quite hard to spot.  - I had originally discounted it as a difference in how the sail was sewn past the spine fixings when I had first put the two sails next to each other.  The distances between sail grabbers and from inner sail grabbers to spines are the same for the standard and the SUL.
Associated with this 15mm difference is a difference in the length of the black reinforcement that runs from the tail tip up the spine.  In the SUL it is 247mm overall, but in the standard it is 265mm overall.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Kantaxel on October 06, 2012, 04:26 PM
I'm pretty sure Seattle is still building the Pros.................I believe Mei has retired.  Confirmation could be best ascertained by inquiring of Steve H.  I know that Team Cutting Edge used the Std. stand-offs on their SULs for the reason I can't remember, at this time..........chalk that up to Senility, I think? I know it was Jerry or Jim that told me that, but can't (again) bring back total recall.  I just remember hearing the story about Mark tweaking and tweaking the SUL at Ocean Shores all the while suffering from either post or pre-surgery of one of his knees....Uh,.......... the years are growing ever shorter and the blanks are becoming longer and more frequent.

Jim 


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 06, 2012, 07:18 PM
Well one reason why the QPro sul has slightly shorter standoffs might be that flatter sails are more effective in actually "catching" the wind, thus make more out of the little winds a sul operates in.
And on the flip side, it makes the frame more strained, tricks are effected or not possible anymore etc.
Its a matter of finding the balance in the design between low wind ability, fly ability and what the kite should be able to do. Also flatter sails in general tend to be faster flying, something which might not be desired in a given design.

Example, i have a speedkite design that is able to be flown in 1km/h winds, it is pretty much flat. Standoffs are like 2 inches at most, at over 7feet wingspan.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on October 07, 2012, 03:56 AM
I know that Team Cutting Edge used the Std. stand-offs on their SULs for the reason I can't remember, at this time.....
I recall that also.  - Thought they explained it gave a wider wind range for very little increase at the bottom end.  But wonder if they used exact Std. stand-offs, or Std. stand-offs cut down to SUL lengths?
Quote
.....chalk that up to Senility, I think? I know it was Jerry or Jim that told me that, but can't (again) bring back total recall.  I just remember hearing the story about Mark tweaking and tweaking the SUL at Ocean Shores all the while suffering from either post or pre-surgery of one of his knees....Uh,.......... the years are growing ever shorter and the blanks are becoming longer and more frequent.

Jim 
Yes.  Me too. - Keeping notes is very useful for coping with this, which is why often I jot down what I think might be useful in the future.  Keeping them in computer files makes it easier to search for them later on.  And they take up less space around the house.  Wonder if this is how Terry Pratchett (famous author) copes as he has had dementia for few years now.  He is still publishing stories fairly elaborate plots.


Back to QPro standard verses SUL, I had overlooked the most obvious difference - the length of the black reinforcement runs from the nose down the spine.  - The piece with "QUANTUM PRO" in silver letters.  Measured from the tip of the nose to the tip of the reinforcement, on the standard this is 543mm long, and on the SUL it is 495mm long.  - And the SUL also includes the "SUPER ULTRALIGHT" text.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Kantaxel on October 09, 2012, 08:56 PM
AS I recall they just changed over to the Standard's stand-offs.  We must remember they were completely set up with all kinds of spares...........Wouldn't it be nice?   8)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on October 17, 2012, 01:28 PM
...
Back on the search for different SUL for under QPro SUL flying speeds, I have been looking at the ratio of a kite’s weight verses its “effective” sail area, where “effective” approximates to the area that is calculated from the width and height of the assembled kite, rather than the area of the sail fabric when the sail is laid flat on a table.  The idea is that this figure will give a rough idea of the relative effort (= flyers speed running around) to fly the kite.  Early figures don’t contain any surprises other than suggesting that the Ocius SUL should be much more floaty than I have experienced.  When scales have been accurately calibrated I’ll post some details of the results.
- Well I have calibrated my scales and measured the ratio of kites' weights to "effective" sail areas, and the results don't show very clear trends. But as as I said I'd post the details, the story is below:

I was thinking of a figure of merit for kites that would be approximately proportional to the weight to lift ratio. 
My original idea was to estimate the effective area of the kite - that is the amount of air it catches, by: kite height x kite width/2. - This was approximating the kite sail as two triangles each of base: kite width/2 and height: kite height.  Of course this is much more than the actual kite sail as it assumes the kite sail extends right across between the wing tips.   A better approximation would be to use: spine length * kite width/2.  Because the sail is usually cut in at the standoff, this is still an over-estimate, but is not as bad as kite height x kite width/2.

There are problems with calculating the above from weight and sail dimensions quoted by manufacturers.  It is quite rare to find the spine length quoted (that is the length of the sail at the spine, rather than the length of the spine rod).  Also when the width is quoted, it is unclear as to whether this refers to the width of the kite between wingtips when assembled, or to the width across the sail when laid flat. Or it could be the width of the kite between the ends of the sail when assembled. - At least, these possibilities are how I explain the considerable differences between some quoted figures and the dimensions I measure on my own kites.

So the table below uses just measured figures from some of my own lighter wind kites.  I have ordered them roughly in order of low wind flying capability, best first.

                                                    dimensions (mm)                       figures of merit (grams/metre squared)

Kite                              Weight       Width   Height  spine Length      2*weight/            2*weight/ 
                                   (grams)                                                     (width x height)  (width x spine length)
------------------------
Benson Inner Space         140              2060    1100     865              124                       157       
Prism Ozone                    165              1980    1080     755              154                       220
Prism QPro SUL                229              2370    1000     860              193                       225
Skyburner Ocius SUL        138              2120     940      860              138                       150
Siebert ITrix                      83              1505     680      660              162                       167
Prism 3D 2003 version       72              1390     780       570              132                       181
Prism QPro std                 322              2405    1000      877              268                       305
Robertshaw Fury UL AS     239              2114     960      886              235                       255       


(In the list above I put the ITrix below the Ocius as I have found it difficult to fly outdoors as it is affected by slight
eddies in the air flow.  For its ability to catch gentle air flow, it probably deserves to go higher up.)

I was fascinated to see that the figures of merit for the Inner Space and Ocius SUL came out so close to each other, and yet the Ocius SUL wasn't yet flying so low for me.  So I put the kites next to each other for a more detailed comparison.  The amount their sails are cut in along the trailing edge is about the same in both kites.  In fact the shapes of the sails are very similar - the main difference being that the sail of the Inner Space is swept back (i.e. if the nose is "front", then the wingtips are swept "back") more than the Ocius SUL.  The main difference between the two kites seems to be the numbers and lengths of the standoffs (while the Inner Space has one standoff on each side the Ocius has two per side and they are longer).  If the sweeping back of the wings is ignored, one could make shape of the Ocius SUL's sail very similar to that of the Inner Space by disconnecting the inner standoffs. 
This reminds me of that in the early days of flying our QPro SULs, we disconnected the outer standoffs for lighter wind performance.  - I think that when the weather improves and there is some very low wind flying time, there are many hours of experimenting to be had in trying the Ocius SUL with inner or outer standoffs disconnnected. 
- All in all, this may bear out what Mike (zippy8) has posted about flattening sails.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 17, 2012, 08:21 PM
Hrmm, if i understood your table right, this would be the values for the Spectre XUL


Spectre XUL 80g 2490 950 950 67 67
Spectre XULcf 66g 2490 950 56 56

Yes, it is designed to have all 3 points sit on the ground when standing. wingtips and keel.
The cf version is my personal one with custom made framing, hence cf :)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: tpatter on October 17, 2012, 09:39 PM
I'm a little surprised by some of these, so perhaps I am not understanding.

You are saying that your QPro SUL flys lower than your Ocius SUL?  Have you checked the bridle settings on the Ocius?

I do agree with the general data that suggests weight has little correlation with low wind flight to a reasonable degree.  Or sail area area. 

It seems to me that sail area and a coefficient of drag (not sure if this actually exists, but it seems logical) are some important variables.  I mean, in the end, the wind at a given low speed is going to pass over a sail of a given shape and area.  This 'friction' will create a 'lift' governed by the Bernoulli principle which will result in flight.  Am I wrong?


Tom


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 17, 2012, 10:09 PM
Yes, sail and wing design has a greater influence then weight. Of course low weight helps a lot :)
And if you manage to combine both together you great an outstanding performing kite.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: zippy8 on October 17, 2012, 11:46 PM
If I may.....

                                                    dimensions (mm)             figures of merit
                                                                                          (gr/m squared)

Kite                    Mass            Width   Height  spine Length      2*mass/           2*mass/
                        (grams)                                            (w x h)      (w x spine)
------------------------
Benson Inner Space        140              2060    1100     865           124                    157
Prism Ozone               165              1980    1080     755           154                    220
Prism QPro SUL            229              2370    1000     860           193                    225
Skyburner Ocius SUL       138              2120     940     860           138                    150
Siebert ITrix              83              1505     680     660           162                    167
Prism 3D 2003 version      72              1390     780     570           132                    181
Prism QPro std            322              2405    1000     877           268                    305
Robertshaw Fury UL AS     239              2114     960     886           235                    255
Spectre XUL                80              2490     950     950            67                     67
Spectre XULcf              66              2490     950     950            56                     56
 

Megamind: Oh, you're a villain all right, just not a SUPER one!
Titan: Oh yeah? What's the difference?
Megamind: Presentation!

Mike,
supervillain.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Allen Carter on October 18, 2012, 09:45 AM
Mike, you lose presentation points on iOS. Your table is a mess.

Only a regular villain. I'm so disappointed in you!




Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 18, 2012, 09:46 AM
Prism Vapor 153g 2030 1220 -- 124 --

Didn't found how long the spine of the Vapor is, so i -- those values.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on October 20, 2012, 11:18 AM
Andre - Thank you for the additional figures.
Mike - Thank you for the table formatting.  I will try to remember how you did that for the next time.

I'm a little surprised by some of these, so perhaps I am not understanding.

You are saying that your QPro SUL flys lower than your Ocius SUL?  Have you checked the bridle settings on the Ocius?
Tom, 
I think that at the start of this thread I wrote that I found that my new Ocius SUL flew as low and no lower than my few years old QPro SUL.  This was based on a long quiet evening in June flying them back to back on the same 50lb x 75ft lines. - Frequently changing between kites.  I did try altering the Ocius bridle settings regarding nose tilt.  Currently I have it on the second knot from the top.  In common with another Skyburner kite: the Widow Maker, I didn't find that bringing the nose lower by using the very top knot helped.
As for the general setup of the bridle, I have nothing to compare it with, but trust it was OK as it was fresh new from Skyburner.
Comparing the sail with the Inner Space was very interesting, as they are so similar, except for the way the wing on the Inner Space is swept back, and for the standoffs.   Like the Inner Space the Ocius SUL even has some slack in the sail behind the leading edge, which should enable it to adopt an aerodynamic shape in flight (better than a flat sail).

The standoffs brought back to mind our early experiences with the Ozone and the QPro SUL.  The trick with the Ozone to getting it to fly so low was moving the spar grabbers of the outer standoffs inwards to release tension on the sail, but not so much that the kite became unsteerable, and if I remember correctly, putting the inner standoffs on the second sail holes from the middle - again the kite lost too much control with the first sail holes.  When we first got QPro SULs, we had an epidemic of sail grabber caps coming off, releasing the standoffs.  So it was very easy to try them without the outer standoffs, which helped the low wind flying by 1mph or more.  Nowadys I don't bother with this, which is probably down to the sail softening with use.

For the Ocius SUL, Jon Trennepohl has secured the standoffs very well.  I would have to cut off the plastic fittings to remove them.  So instead I intend to try flying with at most a pair of standoffs disconnnected at the lower spreader end, and be careful about catching the loose standoffs on the ground.  Or perhaps I'll just move the spar grabbers along to reduce sail tension.  We'll see how low the kite can fly, and I guess in the longer term, as the sail matures, this won't be necessary so much.

The other thing I can try, is that as the Ocius is a smaller kite than the QPro SUL, perhaps it would do better on shorter lines.

These are all ideas for time when the weather improves and I have some time off.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Wayner on October 20, 2012, 11:42 AM

The other thing I can try, is that as the Ocius is a smaller kite than the QPro SUL, perhaps it would do better on shorter lines.


+1


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 20, 2012, 01:24 PM
A little from today:

https://vimeo.com/51823129

Wind was an abysmal zero to 1mph from varying directions, at different heights.... but sometimes even constant :)


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: Wayner on October 20, 2012, 06:59 PM
A little from today:

https://vimeo.com/51823129

Wind was an abysmal zero to 1mph from varying directions, at different heights.... but sometimes even constant :)

Thanks for the video. Love seeing you fly in such light wind.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: DWayne on October 20, 2012, 08:22 PM
A little from today:

https://vimeo.com/51823129

Wind was an abysmal zero to 1mph from varying directions, at different heights.... but sometimes even constant :)

That kite is very nice indeed.  ;)
What model of TNT is that on the ground ?

Denny


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: ae on October 20, 2012, 08:46 PM
Thats a TNT Zero, was not enough wind for it.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: zippy8 on October 20, 2012, 09:06 PM
Mike, you lose presentation points on iOS. Your table is a mess.
I think you'll find that's iOS's fault  :-[

And by extension yours for choosing iOS in the first place.

Mike.


Title: Re: SUL kites for really low winds?
Post by: damp_weather on July 21, 2013, 04:40 AM
An update on my table in the message dated 17th October 2012.
I'd now move the Ocius SUL to second, just below the Benson Inner Space.

What happened? - In the UK we have been having a beautiful summer, that's what.
I've been able to get out flying once or twice a week, usually after work at around sunset when the inland wind dies away.  I got the Ocius adjusted for coping with lower winds by moving the standoffs (especially the outer standoff) towards the centre tee, sometimes used shorter lines, and flew it and flew it.  (The stand-off adjustment was also used to get the then new QPro SULs flying in very low winds some years ago.)  After a while I was moving the standoffs back towards their original location.  - This regains the precise tracking, and the kite is still flying in practically nothing.   - And from its flips and spins, it acts as if it will do any trick, ready for when I figure them out.
So I have got my flying in nothing trick kite.
 
And the moral is again, a well worn Icarex kite flies lower than a new Icarex kite.