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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: rudyy on October 15, 2012, 03:01 PM



Title: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: rudyy on October 15, 2012, 03:01 PM
I have been doing the cascade for 10 years but with the incorrect arm movements.  Instead of popping/pulling my arm to the back next to my waist, I pop/pull it towards my belly.  I can still do the cascade, but when the wind picks up a bit, it is getting a bit difficult because the arm movement is limited. 

It is quite difficult for me to correct it since I have been doing like this for a decade.  :(

Does anyone here have the same problem?

Rudy


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: JimB on October 15, 2012, 03:33 PM
This is common.

You have got to break yourself of this habit if you want to progress as a flier.

Re-train yourself now.

It doesn't get any easier.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: DWayne on October 15, 2012, 04:06 PM
I watched lots of videos. Richard Debray, Mathieu Mayet, Mathias Haack, Tim Benson, Christian Stahl, etc. Burn those images into your brain then go to the field and try to duplicate them. It worked for me. It may work for you too.

Denny


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: white wing lover on October 15, 2012, 05:09 PM
I watched lots of videos. Richard Debray, Mathieu Mayet, Mathias Haack, Tim Benson, Christian Stahl, etc.

Denny

Are these video's online?


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: DWayne on October 15, 2012, 05:13 PM
Are these video's online?

Yes they are.

Denny


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: thief on October 15, 2012, 05:48 PM
not incorrect arm movements....just old skool!!!!!!


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: zippy8 on October 15, 2012, 06:43 PM
Do this ->

Half Axel Cascade Studies 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLS57F_dFPo#ws)

Doesn't look difficult, does it ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Charles P on October 15, 2012, 07:33 PM
I'm actually working through the same problem, I found that it helps me if I rotate my torso as I am doing the cascade. Seems to work for me. Might be worth a try.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: rudyy on October 15, 2012, 07:49 PM
Thanks, I will give it a shot.  I hope I can rectify it in one or two session of flights.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Wayner on October 15, 2012, 08:49 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLS57F_dFPo#ws (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLS57F_dFPo#ws)


Doesn't look difficult, does it ?

Mike.


 :D  :D  :D :'(


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: RonG on October 16, 2012, 03:22 AM
Do this ->

Half Axel Cascade Studies 2 ([url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLS57F_dFPo#ws[/url])

Doesn't look difficult, does it ?

Mike.

Yep. No more movement than that required. If you're attempting a fountain (rising cascade), maybe a bit of a sharp, upward movement with opposite hand (one attached to the up-wing), to both stop the rotation and pull that wing a bit higher in the window with each rotation.

I used to love watching people who'd learn to axel with that old skool across-the-chest sweep of the arm attempt to move on to the cascade  :o After enough chest pounding they eventually either gave up or went back to school and learned it correctly  ;)


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: inewham on October 16, 2012, 05:23 AM
After enough chest pounding they eventually either gave up or went back to school and learned it correctly  ;)

Pah! Never! Even though I do everything else by my sides I still slip into chest beating when I cascade  :D


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: misterbleepy on October 16, 2012, 08:15 AM
I learnt to cascade on a Fury - no chance of using the chest-beating technique with that kite :D


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: red sweater on October 16, 2012, 09:04 AM
I recently learned the "across the body" half axel...from watching Martin's HA video, no less. I figured that was the way I was supposed to do it! At least if I wanted to be like mama74, and let's face it, who doesn't?

Now I have to (re)learn to do it with a straight pull.

Is there a video of this chest-beating cascade? Purely for humor purposes. Cross my heart, I won't try it. ;)


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: tpatter on October 16, 2012, 09:25 AM
These guys get a pretty close approximation when they reach high to their upper arms.

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=6TS9ugnarQQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6TS9ugnarQQ (http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=6TS9ugnarQQ&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3D6TS9ugnarQQ)


This is what I always think of when I see the 'across the body, lift your arm up near your face' cascade technique.   I know a guy who does it just fine this way, but his speed is limited - and it's hard to keep a straight face when you see him do it.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: DD on October 16, 2012, 10:40 AM
want to cure yourself from doing this? put metal rings on your straps after hitting yourself with them enough you will learn :D

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 16, 2012, 10:47 AM
I recently learned the "across the body" half axel...from watching Martin's HA video, no less. I figured that was the way I was supposed to do it! At least if I wanted to be like mama74, and let's face it, who doesn't?

Now I have to (re)learn to do it with a straight pull.

Is there a video of this chest-beating cascade? Purely for humor purposes. Cross my heart, I won't try it. ;)


I learned the Cascade with an inward motion. Many people have since told me I do it wrong. The thing is, I still do it that way and I'm not too bad at it.  I can do it with traditional style inputs but I never saw an advantage so I just kept doing it my way. i can Cascade, Puddle, Fountain etc. in pretty much any wind. Like with many tricks, there is often a few ways to skin them. I keep my hands down and do a inward snap rotation motion.
Transformer Vented @ Crescent City CA 07-03-2011 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65kbWeQjcUI#ws)
You can see me in the background with the kite about 50 sec in or so & see what I mean.

I am not recommending it, but maybe it's not necessarily "wrong" either. I if the trick looks good, well, then it is.



Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: tpatter on October 16, 2012, 11:10 AM
I don't see anything wrong with your technique James - different than the text book perhaps, but effective and economical in motion.

I wish I had a picture of what I think we are talking about here - where the hands and arms go diagonally across the front of the body from the hip level up to the shoulder level and then back again.   

Also, in my opinion, if it works for you, who cares what anyone else thinks.

Thanks for the video - always love watching some beach flying!

-Tom


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: thief on October 16, 2012, 11:34 AM
want to cure yourself from doing this? put metal rings on your straps after hitting yourself with them enough you will learn :D
as someone who flies 80% of the time with leather straps that have 1.5" wide d rings this is VERY true!!!!!


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: zippy8 on October 16, 2012, 11:49 AM
put metal rings on your straps after hitting yourself with them enough you will learn :D

I suppose you could do it all half-arsed or....

(http://www.hunggarkuen.it/museum/img/Kung%20Fu%20Hustle%204.jpg)

Mike.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: RonG on October 16, 2012, 01:05 PM
I am not recommending it, but maybe it's not necessarily "wrong" either. I if the trick looks good, well, then it is.

I support this post 100%. If it works for you, keep doing it. I think that most people will ultimately do better learning the low-and-to-the-sides style, but hey, if it 'aint broke....

I remember a competitor that used to give me fits when I judged quad - if you watched the pilot, it looked like the most awkward, contortionist performance ever. Yet the kite was doing everything correctly, smoothly, a pleasure to watch. I used to put hold my clipboard out in front of me just high enough so that I could see the kite's movements without seeing any of the person that was controlling it  :o


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: lylenc on October 16, 2012, 02:56 PM
You have a ways to go developing your cross-chest pull technique, if you haven't punched your nose or knocked your glasses off. That's when I decided to switch to the by-the-side style. That and a full summer of SUL weather where I needed greater arm movement.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: rudyy on October 16, 2012, 06:21 PM
Quote
You can see me in the background with the kite about 50 sec in or so & see what I mean.

I am not recommending it, but maybe it's not necessarily "wrong" either. I if the trick looks good, well, then it is.

Dolphinboy,  this is also what I have been doing for the past 10 years.

I try changing to straight pull today.  Very slow cascade is ok, but not the fast one yet.



Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Wayner on October 16, 2012, 06:36 PM
I recently learned the "across the body" half axel...from watching Martin's HA video, no less. I figured that was the way I was supposed to do it! At least if I wanted to be like mama74, and let's face it, who doesn't?

Now I have to (re)learn to do it with a straight pull.


Same problem I had.  ::)  I love Martin's video but the  "across the body" half axel movement was been a big problem for me to correct. Took about 6 month till it finally disapeared.



Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Charles P on October 16, 2012, 08:13 PM
Loving this thread!  :D    Thaks for the video dolphinboy! Out of curiosity were you at the Chambers bay kite festival in Tacoma last July? If not I may have ran into your evil twin.
 Zippy 8s, kung fu hustle is toooo funny and
 Ron G. All judges should be so fair!! lol


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: JimB on October 16, 2012, 08:43 PM
The problem isn't with how any particular trick looks as a stand alone.

Your hands are going to be way out of position for whatever else comes next.

That's just the way it is.

It will limit you as a flier.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: B-13 on October 16, 2012, 09:01 PM
I too just started the 1/2 axel cascade and found myself moving the arms towards my belly instead of my sides. Sometimes in upper winds and where movement have to be rapid, i will have to stop due to several punch and respiratory issues lol
I'm trying hard to correct it but the brain does not want to follow Mr. Madsen movements lol..
I guess i will have to make it slowly on a less steep correcting curve


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: red sweater on October 17, 2012, 09:21 AM
I too just started the 1/2 axel cascade and found myself moving the arms towards my belly instead of my sides. Sometimes in upper winds and where movement have to be rapid, i will have to stop due to several punch and respiratory issues lol
I'm trying hard to correct it but the brain does not want to follow Mr. Madsen movements lol..
I guess i will have to make it slowly on a less steep correcting curve

I haven't hit myself (yet), since I take my arm across to the inside of the opposite elbow, just as I interpret Martin's video. However, I have scraped my crossing hand on the other line.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Dolphinboy on October 17, 2012, 10:01 AM
The problem isn't with how any particular trick looks as a stand alone.

Your hands are going to be way out of position for whatever else comes next.

That's just the way it is.

It will limit you as a flier.

I'm sorry but I totally disagree.
Tricking is the act of moving your hands away from neutral. That's the way it's done along with moving your body too. If a trick needs a big arm movement down and away, then your hand is down and away. So then you need to keep coming back to a neutral position. This can be a process were the kite is moving and your already coming back to a position for the next input. Slack is created when you input, pop pull etc. then release the tension allowing the kite to move. Hopefully in the desired fashion. Take up slack, if needed and repeat.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: DWayne on October 17, 2012, 10:16 AM
The one thing I've found all the top fliers to have in common is that they don't flail about.

Denny


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: mama74 on October 17, 2012, 10:18 AM
I recently learned the "across the body" half axel...from watching Martin's HA video, no less. I figured that was the way I was supposed to do it! At least if I wanted to be like mama74, and let's face it, who doesn't?

Now I have to (re)learn to do it with a straight pull.


Same problem I had.  ::)  I love Martin's video but the  "across the body" half axel movement was been a big problem for me to correct. Took about 6 month till it finally disapeared.



And I want to fly like Debray :)

Besides that, how do I comment on this...

I do a Half Axel and a HA-cascade in different ways.
I do the Half Axel with cross-pull. Cross-pulling put the hands in just the right position for putting pressure back in the sail: in front of the body, arms bend. This, for me, is the best way for making a clean exit from the Half Axel.
I do the HA-cascade without cross-pulling, since the hand movements required are smaller and easier to do fast this way. Often, I do a cross-pull when exiting the HA-cascade.

From wich video did you learn the cross-pulling? As far as I remember, I only did this in the HA+Cascade Studies from 2008. The way I HA in this video, is how I usually do it.
In the Half Axel Tutorial and HA1-7, I actually modified my inputs to make them visible to the camera, quitting the cross-pull.

My apologies if I put you through a lot of extra work :) The Half Axel is not easy to explain/understand... it happens in about half a second.

But of course, if it works, you're doing it right :)


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: zippy8 on October 17, 2012, 10:24 AM
Tricking is the act of moving your hands away from neutral. That's the way it's done along with moving your body too. If a trick needs a big arm movement down and away, then your hand is down and away. So then you need to keep coming back to a neutral position. This can be a process were the kite is moving and your already coming back to a position for the next input. Slack is created when you input, pop pull etc. then release the tension allowing the kite to move. Hopefully in the desired fashion. Take up slack, if needed and repeat.
???

Anyhooooo...... the across-the-chest "technique" will get you a Cascade but that style of input is poorly suited to, for instance, the Comète. Preferable to have one method, wouldn't we all agreed ?

Mike.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: RonG on October 17, 2012, 10:44 AM
The problem isn't with how any particular trick looks as a stand alone.

Your hands are going to be way out of position for whatever else comes next.
That's what I was thinking, of course.

It's been a long time since I thought about tricks in isolation, as in "now I'm going to do a cascade....done". If the method of execution of a particular trick makes it hard to flow into something else, from my standpoint that's a problem.

Executing a cascade (or anything else) in an unorthodox manner doesn't make the cascade "wrong", but some methods are going to leave you with fewer options as to what happens next.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: rudyy on October 17, 2012, 11:24 AM
Quote
Anyhooooo...... the across-the-chest "technique" will get you a Cascade but that style of input is poorly suited to, for instance, the Comète. Preferable to have one method, wouldn't we all agreed ?

Mike.

Interestingly enough, I do the comete using the straight pull.  It is very difficult or I would say almost impossible to comete using the across the chest technique because it demands a lot more arm movments than the cascade.

It is just like backspin which needs straight pull, you do not yank the line towards your chest as it will not work at all and you will kill yourself.  lol

Rudy


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: red sweater on October 17, 2012, 04:32 PM
From wich video did you learn the cross-pulling? As far as I remember, I only did this in the HA+Cascade Studies from 2008.

My apologies if I put you through a lot of extra work :) The Half Axel is not easy to explain/understand... it happens in about half a second.

But of course, if it works, you're doing it right :)

Yeah, it would have been that video. I actually studied the HA tutorial first, and tried it that way (without the cross pull) for a while. The tutorial appears to have little or no pull out of the flare. As an inland flier with low wind and an UL, I was finding that my flares were lasting longer than I thought would be correct. Maybe I was entering the flare too hard, and maybe I just wasn't getting tension on the line to exit the flare. (I don't have a soft touch yet.)

So, in preparation for my week at the beach, I looked at other videos, including the HA/cascade studies. That's probably where I picked up the cross pull. And I have to say, it worked brilliantly in the higher winds (at the edges).

I'm sure it's just a matter of finding the right touch on the UL. I don't want to sound like I'm blaming you at all. I was probably almost there before I switched kites, wind conditions, and techniques. But even with all that change, I was pulling clean, swift half axels right away. Who knows, maybe trying it that way helped me understand it better for learning the straight pull method. I don't think it's too entrenched as a habit yet, either.

Thanks for replying, by the way. I find your videos immensely helpful.

I do a Half Axel and a HA-cascade in different ways.
I do the Half Axel with cross-pull. Cross-pulling put the hands in just the right position for putting pressure back in the sail: in front of the body, arms bend. This, for me, is the best way for making a clean exit from the Half Axel.
I do the HA-cascade without cross-pulling, since the hand movements required are smaller and easier to do fast this way. Often, I do a cross-pull when exiting the HA-cascade.

Oh, I guess I wanted to respond to this part, too. This makes a lot of sense, and I agree completely. I definitely like the exits better when I tried the cross pull. Snappy and smooth.


Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: Wayner on October 17, 2012, 08:22 PM

My apologies if I put you through a lot of extra work :) The Half Axel is not easy to explain/understand... it happens in about half a second.

But of course, if it works, you're doing it right :)

Martin, no need to apologize or feel bad. First I love your videos. Second I learned the half axel from watching them. Would not trade that for anyting  ;D

In my case, just see it as some of your style did not work for me.

Now when I do a half axel, all I do is smile. So this is my chance to thank you for the video,



Title: Re: Incorrect arm movements with cascade
Post by: JimB on October 17, 2012, 09:19 PM
When an experienced flier decides to execute a move with an unorthodox hand or arm movement because it sets him up for something he has in mind to do next that's one thing.

A good example is that "pop down pop up" move those French guys use to get some exceptionally fast and clean moves.

When a newbie learns to cross pull early on in the learning curve, that is another thing entirely.

It just doesn't lead anywhere good.

I don't want any newbies wandering into this thread to get the idea that it's okay to cross pull just because. It's not.

If at some point a flier decides to cross pull or whatever for a reason other than just because, then great go for it.

Rules are meant to broken, but having an idea of what your about when you do break them generally works out for the best.