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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Ara Ararauna on October 20, 2012, 04:16 PM



Title: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 20, 2012, 04:16 PM
Hi,

I have been analysing what I feel when flying my FW Soul and I wanted to ask you something.

When the wind starts to pick up a little (say 9-10 Km/h) the Soul starts pulling strong and I cannot get it to empty the sail and I can almost do nothing but fly around and do turns.
I try to give loads of slack. But as much as I throw my arms forwards, jump and or run towards it, the lines are always tense. I alternatively also try to pull it hard towards me but it barely does anything.

I was thinking perhaps my bridle was making the kite point too much straight up and so no wind can easily escape. But I checked the bridle lengths and they are according to the original.
I though of modifying it to make the nose point a little more towards me, but I'm not sure I want to start messing with it...

Also I have the feeling that this has become more apparent ever since I repaired the split LS. I feel as though the extra weight from the repair is changing the balance of the kite.
Being a newbie flyer I thought it would be impossible for me to notice anything.
But I'm starting to think it is noticeable. (I did put quite a bit of line thread and superglue around the split part, plus some heat-shrink tube. Moreover I did it on both LS's since I wanted to have the kite laterally balanced... although the repair was around the central T...)

Any suggestions?
Thanks!


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 21, 2012, 03:02 AM
The Soul is  big kite and can pull quite hard, but it isn't usually a problem until the winds get over 12-14mph (20-25km/h). I would have thought 9-10 km/h ( 7-8mph) would be nicely in the 'sweet spot'.

Sorry to ask the obvious stupid question, but are you using the adjustments on the uphaul line? The Soul has a large range of adjustment for 'angle of attack' - AoA - to adjust the sails ability to spill wind.  On mine there are 6 adjustment knots measured at, from the frame - 7,9,11,13,15,17 cm - ( I think this is standard but my kite was secondhand and modified so it may be different). In 'normal' winds -8-12mph - I normally use the 11 or maybe 13cm knot. 7 & 9 cm knots are for low wind down to 4mph, 15& 17 cm knots for strong winds up to 16-18mph.

If your kite is pulling too hard you need to reduce the AoA by adjusting the nose away from you - using one of the longer knot settings so in stronger winds I would be using 13,15 or even 17cm depending on the wind strength. It sounds like you have the nose pulled too far forward already and the kite is catching too much wind.

My bridle settings are:

Uphaul 54cm ( on the 11cm knot)
outhaul 56cm
inhaul 63cm
turbo 9.5cm

As for the spreader, a small difference in weight can make a difference, especially in something like the fade position. If your repaired spreader is still strong, you could always make the same 'repair' to the good side to balance up the weight.

Have patience with the 540! one day you'll just get it and then kick yourself! ....it took me about a year to finally get it - Randy G's video got it for me ;D .......still can't backspin to save my life though :(


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 21, 2012, 02:25 PM
Thanks a lot Hadge.

I found some inconsistencies in my measures. Not only with respect to yours but, even worse, from the left and right side of my kite...
Also, since I found that in some older post you had given the official FW's measures I checked those are there are also some important differences...

Therefore I have sent an e-mail to Albert from FW's and hopefully he will send me the correct updated measures.
When he does, I will post them here to make sure everyone has them (I also asked for the lengths of the stand-offs since I had changed the original sail supports that had broken for some new of the type that have a little screw to fix them on the sail).

Cheers.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: cerfvoliste on October 21, 2012, 03:00 PM
When tricking in higher winds, start you slack line tricks at the edge of the wind window and let it drift toward the center...
CV


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: red sweater on October 21, 2012, 03:48 PM
I really am shocked that 9-10 kph (5.6-6.2 mph) is being considered high winds here. And I'm an inland flier. I assume we're talking about a standard kite? I would think that would be well towards the lower end for mortals.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: tpatter on October 21, 2012, 04:08 PM
I really am shocked that 9-10 kph (5.6-6.2 mph) is being considered high winds here. And I'm an inland flier. I assume we're talking about a standard kite? I would think that would be well towards the lower end for mortals.

Sounds like something is wrong.  I enjoy flying my SUL oftentimes in 5 mph. 

Tom


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 21, 2012, 10:33 PM
I really am shocked that 9-10 kph (5.6-6.2 mph) is being considered high winds here. And I'm an inland flier. I assume we're talking about a standard kite? I would think that would be well towards the lower end for mortals.

OK, I might have exaggerated a bit to make my point, but not that much...
Let us put 11-12Km/h it is difficult to empty the sail to do even simple tricks (e.g. half axel, fade, turtle,...)
Once it gets to 15Km/h I really can only fly on the edges of the window with difficulties.
And if it gets any higher the tips of the wing vibrate violently as the kite flies sideways, especially as I cross the central power zone. At the edge the wind flips the kite over every time I try a trick and I get my lines twisted around the tip of the wing...

So I'm pretty sure something is not quite right.
Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 21, 2012, 10:49 PM
You may also want to read both of these.
[url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=3275.0[/url] ([url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=3275.0[/url])

[url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6970.0[/url] ([url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6970.0[/url])


Thanks Norm for all the information.

Indeed, I had also found these references (one of them is mine!)
However, since I found some inconsistencies between some measures and differences in the pigtails of the uphaul (both in quantity and in measures) I decided to make sure everything was verified and updated with the manufacturer.

I'll keep you informed.
Thanks.



Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 21, 2012, 10:57 PM
Hope this helps. All measurements were taken from the front surfaces of the spars. I included the upper pigtail as part of the Uphaul measurement. Mine is sitting on the second knot down.
Keep in mind this could change with wind speed. More wind and you should lower this setting.(AoA)


Norm, I see you have the uphaul in the second pigtail as opposed to the third as I do.
This would make the nose of your Soul point more towards you and hence have a stronger pull, correct?
So I don't understand why I'm having these issues...

What bugs me is that at first I thought it was me being a lousy pilot.
But ever since I bought the new Talon UL I have noticed how smoothly it flies even in its upper wind limit.
This is NOT the feeling I get with the Soul at all. And this makes me a bit sad and angry at the same time...  :(

I hope this can be fixed.
Cheers everyone.

N.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 22, 2012, 06:55 AM
Do you know the exact wind speed? Are you using a anemometer? If your wing tips are shuttering I would say you're flying above the wind speed for the Soul. The manufacturer list
the recommended wind speed for the Soul at 3-20mph, but don't believe it.

Hi Norm.
Yes, I do have an anemometer: Skywatch Explorer2
This is why I'm talking about precise amounts.
For example yesterday I was flying at around 10-12Km/h and it was difficult to give slack.
I was almost pulling my arms out of my shoulder joint.
It then went up to 15-19Km/h and the kite was really pulling me so I could only fly in circles, forget about trying any tricks.
Finally I packed up when the gusts were going up to 20-22Km/h...

But, in any case this would still be under 14mph !
Really far from the theoretical 20mph !!!!  :(

Don't understand what's going on...  :'(


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 22, 2012, 06:58 AM
This is correct, but the noticeable difference in pull would be minimal for us less experienced pilots. It doesn't really matter how many knots or the distance between each knot on the pigtail exist. Be sure the total distances are correct. From everything I see the differences between Steve's, Mine, and Albert's are minimal. Using any of our three measurements would work just fine.

This is what I would have thought but apparently we're flying different beasts with the same name...  :o

It's a good thing you don't have a SF Pro or a HQ Infinity. You would be pulling your "bridle hair" out.  :D

Why's that?
Do they have more complex bridles?



Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 22, 2012, 07:06 AM
Shot in the dark: I have no idea what would happen if you were using the shorter outside stand-offs in higher wind. You might want to check and see which ones you have installed. My kite flys great with the bridle measurements I have on the picture. Do you have yours set in turbo or 3-point? Maybe it's time for a Vented Talon.  ;D  By all means, keep me posted.

I am flying with the longer stand-offs.
Originally my Soul came with the shorter ones as a default (really strange) and I couldn't fly it as a newbie. The kite kept going into a turtle and I could not control it.
So I changed to the long ones and I started flying OK.

I do have the turbo bridle configuration. This is what I have:

Stand-offs, from sail to lower spreader: 27cm (26.5cm from sail to tip of stand-off)
Bridle:
  • Left (as seen from the pilot)
    Upper outhaul: 55cm
    Lower outhaul: 59.5cm
    Inhaul: 63.5cm
    Turbo: almost 10cm
    Pigtails in upper outhaul: 8, 9.5, 11 & 12cm
Right (as seen from the pilot)
  • Upper outhaul: 55.5cm
    Lower outhaul: 59.5cm
    Inhaul: 63.5cm
    Turbo: almost 9.5cm
    Pigtails in upper outhaul: 8.5, 10, 11.5 & 12.5cm

One more thing.
The doughnut-shaped weight on the lower end of the spine has also become loose and I don't know where it should be placed.
I try to keep it touching the lower T but it often moves up the spine between 3-5cm.

I bought it NEW from Steve here at GWTW/Chico Kites

Still waiting for Albert to answer.
Cheers.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 22, 2012, 07:54 AM
My stand-offs are both 26cm from sail to top of vinyl cap.
Soul Specs. say 25.5cm..........Looks all good to me.

I will cut away the extra 1cm from mine to make sure this is not affecting.
In fact they do take a bit of effort getting into the LS connectors since I changed the sail connectors from the original to those that have a little screw.

I will also correct the pigtails on the upperhaul.

Let us see if tweaking here and there manages to get the kite back in tune...

Thanks for your interest and patience Norm.

BTW, what about the tail weight? What is yours like and where is it placed?
Thanks


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 22, 2012, 10:00 AM
Ara, a few random thoughts.

Has your kite always pulled like this? If not, when did it start.

It really sounds like the kite is overpowering badly, What kind of field are you flying on? If it is partly sheltered could it be that the wind you are measuring at ground level is a lot less than the wind at 25m?

I really wouldn't get the hacksaw out and start cutting things yet!...1cm on a standoff isn't going to make that much difference to the kites pull.

Although your bridle measurements are more or less the same as mine, the amount of adjustment you have on the uphaul pigtails is rather different.  I would suggest that you make up a set of pigtails with the same knot spacing as I posted at the beginning of the thread. You can put them side by side with your existing ones to try them out.  They should give you much more adjustment for higher wind as it will you another 4.5cm of adjustment. Mine flies fine from around 4/5mph into mid teens before the LE's start to shake.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that there was a revised version of the Soul brought out after the original with a few changes but I don't know what they were.

Try the pigtails, it can't do any harm and I'm sure you'll find it better - your maximum wind adjustment is still in my midrange.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 22, 2012, 10:43 AM
Thanks Hadge for your thought.
Here are my comments:

Ara, a few random thoughts.

Has your kite always pulled like this? If not, when did it start.

I'm not sure... since when I started with it I was coming from the Prism Nexus which was a real difference... I was really a newbie...
However, I would say it pretty much has always done that...

Quote
It really sounds like the kite is overpowering badly, What kind of field are you flying on? If it is partly sheltered could it be that the wind you are measuring at ground level is a lot less than the wind at 25m?

I have flown everywhere: beach, inland urban, inland rural...
For example, what I was describing a few posts ago was on the beach with the wind coming from the sea. So no possible obstacles in the way. Of course wind could change anyway depending on height but I think the measurements were quite correct.

Quote
I really wouldn't get the hacksaw out and start cutting things yet!...1cm on a standoff isn't going to make that much difference to the kites pull.

However, the 3cm of the short outer stand-offs do make a difference, so I think I will cut them.

Quote
Although your bridle measurements are more or less the same as mine, the amount of adjustment you have on the uphaul pigtails is rather different.  I would suggest that you make up a set of pigtails with the same knot spacing as I posted at the beginning of the thread. You can put them side by side with your existing ones to try them out.  They should give you much more adjustment for higher wind as it will you another 4.5cm of adjustment. Mine flies fine from around 4/5mph into mid teens before the LE's start to shake.

OK, I'll buy some bridle line and make the new pigtails

Quote
I seem to remember reading somewhere that there was a revised version of the Soul brought out after the original with a few changes but I don't know what they were.

Yes, you told me that in another post or PM. This is why I decided to ask Albert Chen, just in case there IS a difference.

Quote
Try the pigtails, it can't do any harm and I'm sure you'll find it better - your maximum wind adjustment is still in my midrange.

I will.
Sooooooo... I'll keep adjusting things and hope for the best.

Thanks!



Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: red sweater on October 22, 2012, 01:43 PM
Why's that?
Do they have more complex bridles?
Everywhere you look on the SF Pro there is a bridle adjustment. On the HQ Infinity there is an addictional one somewhere around the center of the LE's for stabilizing or shutter prevention.


Huh. I have the SF Pro UL, and haven't monkeyed with the bridle. Of course, my bag of tricks only contains axels, half axels, and snap turtles so far. I do know there is a weight balance problem with yo-yos, but right now, I'm not concerned about that.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 23, 2012, 03:13 AM
Hi all (especially Norm and Hadge),

I have received the info from Albert and he confirms the numbers that Hadge used to have
http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=4607.msg41873#msg41873 (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=4607.msg41873#msg41873)

The measures he sends are the following:
  • Upper outhaul: 54cm (factory set up)
  • Lower outhaul:57cm
  • Inhaul:63cm
  • Turbo: 9.5cm
  • Pigtails on upper outhaul: 8, 9, 10 and 11cm (factory set up is on the 3rd node 10cm)

So only minor changes in the pigtail distances.

But most of the measures are a bit different from the ones I have.
So I will now adjust everything and see what happens.
I will report back as soon as I can fly the new configuration.

Cheers,

N.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 23, 2012, 03:51 AM
This is the pigtail from my Soul.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-ImkSYjr5rgM/UIZyMcpDHbI/AAAAAAAAAQ8/-b-1teWfGWA/s640/DSCF0011.JPG)


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 24, 2012, 12:25 AM
Sure Norm, I'll keep reporting.

I have some hopes. My lower outhauls were 2cm longer than they should so the kite nose was actually tilted towards me and hence was probably picking up more wind than it should. Last night I fixed all lengths and knots (what a nightmare!  ??? )
I also fixed the pigtails in the top end of the upper outhauls, although I have not yet bought the bridle line to make a new longer one as Hadge suggests.
But at least now everything is in place.

I only have to cut the 1cm off the stand-offs (Albert Chen also recommended me doing so) and the kite will be in perfect shape.

I will then have no excuse to fly it properly...  ::)   :-[  :-X   :(

I was thinking about something else. Since I bought my Talon UL, it has become my first option. If the winds are low, of course, but as wind picks up I tend to push it a little. I then change to the Soul. So I guess lately I have been flying the Soul only in mid-high winds and therefore my flying experience with it must have changed... Anyway, we'll see what it is like this time.

I hope I have good weather and wind this Sunday and I will tell you all about it.
Cheers and thanks to all of you!

N.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 24, 2012, 02:00 AM

If you send me an e-mail I will send you a FW Sould PDF file. I tried to put it in here and the file size was too big.


Is that the standard Soul instructions Norm? If so it's available here on the forum.

http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/soulinstructions.pdf (http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/soulinstructions.pdf)


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 24, 2012, 02:45 AM

If you send me an e-mail I will send you a FW Sould PDF file. I tried to put it in here and the file size was too big.


Is that the standard Soul instructions Norm? If so it's available here on the forum.

[url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/soulinstructions.pdf[/url] ([url]http://www.gwtwforum.com/pdf/soulinstructions.pdf[/url])


Hi,

If this is the PDF Norm was referring to, I already got it in print with my Soul. However, it does not provide any info on the bridle or on its adjustments.

Thanks.


Title: 1st Report - Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 28, 2012, 01:21 PM
Hi (Norm, Hadge),

This is the first report on the fine tuning of the Soul.
Well today wasn't the best day to try this: gusty winds from 5 to 25Km/h (with a mean of 15Km/h)
However...

... I was gladly surprised!!!!!!!!!  :D

Boy the kite did change!
It is amazing what 2cm in the lower outhauls can do...

I shortened the lower outhauls from 59cm to 57cm
I made sure both inhauls were exactly 63cm and both turbos 9.5cm
I also adjusted the pigtails on the upper outhaul at 8, 9, 10 and 12 (since the longer ones were already both at 12 I thought I would leave them in case of strong wind as oposed to reducing them to 11 as was the original).
I placed the larkshead of the upper outhaul on the third (10cm) pigtail and made sure the total length was 54.

Well, I felt the kite pulled less and was more controllable.
Since the wind was pretty high, I changed to the fourth pigtail (12cm) and the pull was ostensibly even less!

I really never thought a few cm would make such a difference.

The wind then started to die away and I put the upperhaul back to the third pigtail and I again recovered flotation.
Amazing.

So I must now test, verify and double check all this on a nice, constant, smooth 10Km/h wind.
But for the time being I'm quite happy.

In the strong wind I was able to do half axels which were quite difficult before.
Also in the strong wind I managed to do a few spin axels, some of which came out quite clean.

So I have recovered my joy for flying the Soul (which I had sadly lost).

Thanks to all for your kind help and comments and especially to Hadge, Norm and Albert (Chen)
Cheers!

N.



Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 28, 2012, 02:26 PM
Sounds like you have it sorted Ara!!
 
As the uphaul/outhaul are one length of line, if you had the outhaul 2cm too long, then the uphaul would be pulling the nose too far forward and so catching more wind. With all the adjustment knots on the pigtails and the main bridle line it's easy to get it wrong.

It is amazing how much difference a small amount of adjustment can make.

Good to hear you have your Soul mojo back!!  ;)


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 29, 2012, 02:04 AM
As the uphaul/outhaul are one length of line, if you had the outhaul 2cm too long, then the uphaul would be pulling the nose too far forward and so catching more wind.
Steve: The Uphaul/Inhaul on my Soul are one continuous length of line. My Outhaul is tied on at the LE (no adjustment pigtail) and Turbo with a larkshead.

Now thats interesting.  Mine has looong pigtails at the upper and lower LE's and the spine.  It also has a series of knots halfway along the uphaul/outhaul length so you can adjust the relative positions of the inhaul/ turbo. It's a lot of adjustment and easy to mess it up.

Although my Soul has been modified, I think the bridle is original as it looks the same as the one in the Soul PDF file of the instruction sheet. As I've said previously, I seem to remember reading there was a 2nd version of the Soul with some minor differences.  I know mine is an early one.  I did try retieing a new, simplified bridle to the same measurements but without the adjustment in the middle length but for some reason I couldn't get it to fly the same..odd.


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Ara Ararauna on October 29, 2012, 01:22 PM
Oh dear! Here we go again with differences and versions...  ::)     ;)

I'm attaching an image of my bridle.
Only pigtails at the top of the upper outhaul tied to the upper LE.
The Inhaul is one single thread with the upper outhaul and a shorter piece that goes from the upper outhaul to halfway the inhaul.
The upper outhaul links with a larkshead to the pigtails.
The turbo is a single thread with the line that has the pigtail for the sleeves of the lines to attach to.
Te turbo attaches to the upper outhaul and the inhaul with a really strange knot I cannot make out what it is (something like a double larkshead...).
The lower outhaul attaches to the turbo with a larkshead.

I think I'm not missing anything.

Here you have for posterity...
Cheers,

N.

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Help from those FW Soul experts...
Post by: Hadge on October 29, 2012, 02:02 PM

Te turbo attaches to the upper outhaul and the inhaul with a really strange knot I cannot make out what it is (something like a double larkshead...).
The lower outhaul attaches to the turbo with a larkshead.



As long as your kite is now flying well don't worry about the different bridle.

The knot is a Prussic knot - pull it tight and it locks on the line, loosen it to move it.

(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_V-IpSsQYDuE/TTXA8Fs4gkI/AAAAAAAAAF4/0vH8cA0NJO8/s1600/Prussic-Knot.jpg)

http://images.ebsco.com/pob/summit/catalog/instr_prussic.pdf (http://images.ebsco.com/pob/summit/catalog/instr_prussic.pdf)