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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: Ara Ararauna on December 17, 2012, 11:03 PM



Title: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 17, 2012, 11:03 PM
Hi, I want to build a Conyne that looks vintage for my brother as Christmas present..
For rods I'm planning on using canes (sort of bamboo-like).
But I'm not sure about the cloth.
I want it to look rough and raw, so no bleached whites and much less colors.
So crude plain white (beige).
But I don't want it to be too heavy...
What do you recommend?
Thanks.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: thief on December 18, 2012, 04:28 AM
For many years kites were made out of muslin..... there are a few groups in Europe who look to build reproductions of historical kites made out of cotton cloth, brass fittings, wire, and wood dowels of all types of wood....


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 18, 2012, 05:01 AM
For many years kites were made out of muslin..... there are a few groups in Europe who look to build reproductions of historical kites made out of cotton cloth, brass fittings, wire, and wood dowels of all types of wood....

Thanks!
On trying to learn what "muslin" is, I found these incongruencies:
Wiktionary: "A term used for a wide variety of tightly-woven thin fabrics..."
Wikipedia: "Muslin (/ˈmʌslɨn/ or /ˈmjuːslɨn/) is a loosely-woven cotton fabric..."
 :o

Soooooo... is it tightly- or loosely-woven...?
I would say that for a kite we need tightly-woven... otherwise the air would pass through it!
But what is the correct definition... or are there different types...?

In any case, I'll try to find it in a store and see what it is like ("mussolina" in Catalan and "muselina" in Spanish)...

Cheers.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Flying Fish on December 18, 2012, 05:14 AM
You could try to build a replica of a 1970s Dunford Flying Machine, which was basically a Conyne controlled by two lines:

(http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt306/drosomel/IMG_6635-1.jpg)

(http://i622.photobucket.com/albums/tt306/drosomel/IMG_6637-1.jpg)


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: thief on December 18, 2012, 05:43 AM
i would say that the tighter the weave the better.....

check out Ralf Dietrich's page for some specific info: http://www.roloplan.de/kites/galerie/gal_conyne.html (http://www.roloplan.de/kites/galerie/gal_conyne.html)
(all in german so get your translator ready!)


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Tmadz on December 18, 2012, 05:56 AM
Ara, muslin is a lighter weight cotton cloth with a low thread count (number of threads per inch). It is a cheap cloth that is used more for utility purposes and is not considered fine clothing material. It is used a lot in making sewing patterns or blanks for testing fit. It is also used a lot in the theater for cheap costuming and scenery design. It has a natural or off-white color, but can be bleached or dyed easily.

Muslin is good for hot climates because of the lightweight and looseness of the fabric weave. Maybe not so much for lightwind kites.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 18, 2012, 06:50 AM
You could try to build a replica of a 1970s Dunford Flying Machine, which was basically a Conyne controlled by two lines:

Hi Flying Fish.

Thanks, but my brother wants the kite for aerial photography so we need a stable and strong kite. So I was thinking on a Delta Conyne.
The DC is strong to lift the camera (although it will be a light-weight one) and also the delta gives it stability.

Hence, (Tmadz) it is not meant for light winds, but rather to withstand strong wind to lift the camera up (moreover my brother lives in a windy region, although he might go make aerial photography at other places, of course). In any case, thanks for the description.

Thief, thanks for the tip & I'll check the web you reference.

Cheers.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: mikenchico on December 18, 2012, 08:00 AM
Yes we got in muslin a couple times a year and the thread count varied depending on the supplier. Some would be very low almost like a cheese cloth and not suitable for kites, sometimes it would be a high thread count using a fine thread and actually a pretty nice fabric but being unbleached, untreated and unwashed expect extreme shrinkage, 20 - 30%. I wouldn't use it personally, I made a kite bag out of an untreated cotton canvas once, sized it just right, first time it got damp on the beach it shrank severly and ended up 3-4" too short for the kites.

Better to look for a cotton/poly broadcloth in a natural color. Or better yet depending on the size of kite you want to make you could look for some sale bedding sheets, they can be an advantage beause you'll get wider fabric then the 36" muslin usually comes in or the 44" you'll find in broadcloths. Pure cotton sheets will be fine as they will be pre-shrunk. White Sales usually hit in January don't they? Big sales on sheets.



Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 18, 2012, 09:32 AM
Thanks Mike!
Great information.

first time it got damp on the beach it shrank severly and ended up 3-4" too short for the kites.
:D    :D    :D


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: thief on December 18, 2012, 09:47 AM
humidity can cause changes in the material even if it is coated too.....
Ramlal Tien builds his kites in a old mill on top of a river...We received a few Sentinelles from him that when they went to their end destination were twisted like a piece of rotini pasta...because the end destination had a lower humidity level then where he was the kite changed shape when assembled......made for a super cool piece of line laundry (in reality it generally stretches out to its final shape again with use and files just right)...


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Wayner on December 18, 2012, 10:44 AM

My brother wants the kite for aerial photography so we need a stable and strong kite. So I was thinking on a Delta Conyne.
The DC is strong to lift the camera (although it will be a light-weight one) and also the delta gives it stability.

Hence, (Tmadz) it is not meant for light winds, but rather to withstand strong wind to lift the camera up (moreover my brother lives in a windy region, although he might go make aerial photography at other places, of course). In any case, thanks for the description.


Great choice. DC are my favorite kite for our tricking wind conditions. I have one that is 25 yrs old with wood dowels. Sure your brother will love it.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 27, 2012, 10:40 PM
Hi,

I have finished the cloth of the DC but I'm now having troubles finding bamboo canes that are sufficiently regular.

So I was thinking on using wood dowels.
The question is: what type of wood should they be made of?

They should be light but strong, right?
Thanks.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Hadge on December 28, 2012, 03:20 AM
Hi Ara,

Although I have no personal experience of building anything like his, I do have an old kite flying/building book which says " Pine, Ramin and Obeche are the most common dowels".


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: thief on December 28, 2012, 04:30 AM
Hi,

I have finished the cloth of the DC but I'm now having troubles finding bamboo canes that are sufficiently regular.

So I was thinking on using wood dowels.
The question is: what type of wood should they be made of?

They should be light but strong, right?
Thanks.
From reading on the german sites I posted I get the sense that wood dowels would be more appropriate.....there are ramin towels instock at most of hardware stores in the US...not certain what would be common in Spain.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 28, 2012, 10:29 AM
Great thanks to bot.
I'll first find out what Ramin is in Catalan or in Spanish and then go to the wood hardware store.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ca Ike on December 29, 2012, 12:38 AM
Ramin is a type of white wood similar to pine in properties.  PRetty much any 5/16 or 3/8 dowel you can get at a hardware/craft  store will work.  Smaller then that and they tend to be too flexible.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 31, 2012, 12:32 AM
I can only find beech wood dowels around here.   :(
I will try those and see whether they are sufficiently strong, flexible and light...


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Tmadz on December 31, 2012, 06:45 AM
Ara, Beech is a little denser than average hardwood, but as a result, it is also has a little stronger stiffness and bending strength. They should do the job, especially if you're building a larger kite.


Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Ara Ararauna on December 31, 2012, 08:14 AM
Great, I now have them and look really nice on the kite.
The Delta Conyne is now finished:

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-3F2gtnzMGeQ/UOG31-xilJI/AAAAAAAABs8/YMT5dNLHeek/s1099/20121231_162930.jpg)

I finally used organdy cloth, which is in fact a type of muslin but in this case a mix of cotton and polyester so that it doesn't shrink.
For the dowels I used a mix of bamboo canes (wing laterals and tensor) and three beech rods (for the vertical structure).

Hope it flies well and can hold up a small smartphone to make some aerial photography with GSM connection for my brother's contemporary art project...

Thanks for all the help guys.
I'll report on the flying when we get to try it.



Title: Re: Materials 4 an old-fashioned looking kite
Post by: Wayner on December 31, 2012, 09:02 AM

Nice looking. Expect she will be an effective lifter for your brother KAP efforts.