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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: dyfrgi on June 03, 2009, 09:28 PM



Title: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 03, 2009, 09:28 PM
I live inland, and I'm a beginner. What 2-line kite should I buy, and why? I've perused the general thread on beginner kites, but only a few suggestions for low wind kites are given, and the wind is usually low and gusty here.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: tpatter on June 03, 2009, 09:52 PM
Absolute beginner?  or can you already launch, steer, and sometimes land?


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 03, 2009, 10:00 PM
I can already launch, steer, and sometimes land. I can do circles and figure eights, I can make a rough square (though not a sharp one, most times). I can sometimes recover from a crash, er, uncontrolled deviation from stable flight, and relaunch. I still bang the kite into the ground sometimes, but not *every* time. :) I have a Premier Vision, which is a smallish (63") kite I picked up for $40 or so.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: tpatter on June 03, 2009, 10:12 PM
Well, then, let me save you alot of time and money right now - get a Blue Moon Kite and fly it until you can do the basic tricks well (if thats what you are into). 

They fly very well in bumpy in-land on/off again winds.   His kites fly very well in low wind and are smooth, sweet, stable flyers that can take a beating as well - good for learning, but also very capable.

I think the Muse goes for around $230 or so.



Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: RobB on June 04, 2009, 04:29 AM
The Vision is a good starter kite to learn to keep the kite in the air, but it is really twitchy and not very tricky. Nearly indestructable, though. Flying it will certainly give you the kiting bug, and spending 2-3 hundred $$$ on a kite shouldn't seem too out of line. When I was first starting out, I wasted alot of money buying a bunch of cheap kites, when I should've just bought one or two quality kites.
That being said... I agree with Tom about something from Blue Moon. I have a Mantis and 2 Exiles, they are great kites, and I'm sure the Muse is, too. Also, take a look at the Nebula mentioned in the photo/video area. The BlueMoons and the Nebulas are my favorite kites right now, and I could've saved alot of $$$ if I just got those to begin with.
~Rob.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Bob D on June 04, 2009, 04:40 AM
A low wind kite is either a UL (ultra light) or a SUL (super ultra light). The SULs are usually framed in 2PT sticks and are found in higher end kites that cost more than $200. These kinds of kites are very easy to break for a beginner and probably aren't a great choice for someone learning tricks.

The ULs are more likely framed in 3PTs or something a little tougher than the 2PTS. I learned light wind flying and to axel with a Prism Flashlight. I broke a lot of leading edges as I was learning to cartwheel but the replacements weren't that expensive and it wasn't too hard to figure out how to fix it. (I didn't see it in Steve's inventory though. I'm not sure if it's still made.) You probably want something with a decent wingspan because the smaller kites fly faster whereas a bigger kite flies slower and is easier to handle. (I have a 3D but I rarely fly it because I like bigger kites.)

Looking at Steve's inventory I see that he has the Acrobatx UL for $99. That might be something that might work for you. It's not a high end kite and you can't expect it to perform like a Blue Moon but I haven't read that it's not an unreasonable flyer. Anyone with experience with the Acro UL?

I also see that Steve has the Silver Foxes. I saw someone fly one a few years ago and it looks like a decent kite too. I would imagine that either the 2.3m or the 2.5M UL would be good for light wind. The 2.5m would have a bigger presence in the sky. (I'd probably get the Silver Fox over the Acro though.)

Talk to Steve about it. He's a good person to talk to about it. Either the Acro UL or the Silver Fox UL would be a good choice. Fly it for awhile before you really start to get bitten by the kite bug. Then start to look at Blue Moons! I love my Exile and the UL is supposed to fly even lower.And once you get started with the high end kites, you'll want to see what else is out there - and there's lots!

Another option is the Shadow. Some say it's more of a light wind standard but you'd be hard pressed to find something that's not too fragile and can still fly in low wind. If you can't feel the wind on the back of your neck, it's going to be a challenge to keep something up in the air. For days like that, I like to fly my Blue Moon 61/49 SLK.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 04, 2009, 09:08 AM
Durability definitely matters, since I'm still banging the kite into the ground sometimes. My girlfriend is also likely to fly a bit, and has less experience than I do, though I've seen her keep the Vision up and stable for a couple minutes before. So anything very fragile is out.

I wonder if the Silver Fox 2.5M UL has the needed durability. It's described on Flying Wings' site as being framed in "new dynamic 15, T18", but that's the same as the standard is listed with - maybe it's a different sail material rather than a changed frame?

Another inexpensive UL out there is the New Tech Desire UL. It's available for $95 ready to fly, which is handy since I only have one short line set. Any thoughts on that one? It was referenced in the "favorite beginner kite and why" thread.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Scarecrow on June 04, 2009, 09:57 AM
Quote
Another inexpensive UL out there is the New Tech Desire UL. It's available for $95 ready to fly, which is handy since I only have one short line set. Any thoughts on that one? It was referenced in the "favorite beginner kite and why" thread.


The Desire was the first UL that I owned and I spent a number of enjoyable hours flying it in inland winds. It's certainly not a trick kite, it's just too light. But you will be able to enjoy flying in much lower winds than with the Vision. However, if I recall correctly, it was framed entirely of 4mm (.156) carbon tubes and I broke lower LE's and spreaders more that once. Learning how to repair kites ain't all bad and this one was easy to repair. So if you decide that you want to go with the Desire, I would recommend picking up a couple lengths of 4mm tubes to go with it.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Bob D on June 04, 2009, 09:58 AM
From what I've read about the Desire UL, it's a decent kite. It's got less mass so it's good when you'd rather get the kite up in the air and you don't really care if you can trick it. I imagine it would fly like my Flashlight. And if it IS like my Flashlight, it might be easy to break sticks.

Personally, I like trickability so I'd lean towards the Silver Fox UL. I don't know about the framing that it uses. Anyone? The frame is generally where you see weight savings are made. I remember reading about the Silver Fox on the old GWTW forum and I think that there might have been some criticism that it didn't fly real low. If that's the case then the frame is probably heavier and therefore sturdier. And for a beginner that's a good thing. And if it's got a bit more mass, you'll have an easier time learning tricks.

I don't have first hand experience with either kite so somebody like Steve at GWTW would be your best place to start to decide which way to go.



Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: kiten00b on June 04, 2009, 10:04 AM
The Silver Fox ULs aren't very floaty, but they are tricky.
The Desire UL & Flashlight are better fliers in the light and fickle breezes, but have less tricks in their bags. Nice choice for something to fly without spending a fortune though.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: gwarren on June 04, 2009, 11:45 AM
Here's another option to add to the mix.  Its an old school kite that tracks well, will do a few basic tricks but it will fly from 0 - 10 mph.  It only takes a puff of wind to get it to fly.  The Nik Nak by Skyburner  (I imagine Steve can get one for you)  It was my second kite that I bought and it took loads of abuse.  THere is not a lot of mass to the kite, but its great to learn the basics on.  I have often regretted selling mine. 

glen


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 04, 2009, 02:33 PM
Well, I would like to get something which will last for at least a couple of summers worth of flying. I'm not sure if the Desire UL would do that, since I am interested in learning tricks.

Of what's been suggested here, I'm considering the Acrobatx UL, Silver Fox 2.5 UL, and Blue Moon Muse. Obviously a pretty wide range of prices, from $99 to $230. All three should be fairly trickable, fly in fairly low winds, and have high build quality, from what I've read.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Allen Carter on June 04, 2009, 03:29 PM
The Acrobatx UL has gotten some good reviews. Definitely not a docile trainer kite, but if you don't feel the need for a big slow kite it could be a lot of fun.

http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=93 (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=93)

I think I'll get one some time. Good looking too.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 04, 2009, 03:54 PM
A big slow kite does seem like it'd be easier to learn on. While I can generally handle a fast moving kite, it seems like a slower kite would be easier to learn on, especially for tricks. It allows for slightly more slop in the timing.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: UPNET on June 04, 2009, 04:22 PM
Wife and I have been flying since Feb. of this year. We started on a Cherry Bomb. She has since moved on to a Prism Quantum. She really likes it. It has held up well. She is pretty tough on kites...because she is aggressive and loves to fly low. She is working on snap stalls, and ground recoveries. She just fractured the spine. Got a new replacement for it. I have an Acrobatx, that I can't fly in less than 7mph. We also have a Desire UL, which is not a trick kite. But will fly in very low wind. She broke one of the stand offs, got that replaced. We are inland fliers in TN. so we feel your pain. I just acquired a used BMK Muse. The difference is amazing. I already pulled off some half axels, and some snap stalls. So if you are past the 30mph lawn dart phase, You might consider getting a used BMK of some kind. Maybe someone on this forum would be willing to cut you a deal.   :)


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 06, 2009, 04:17 PM
I decided to pick up a BMK Muse. Ken tells me it should ship out on Wednesday - he's fairly up to date at the moment. I'm looking forward to it!


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: chilese on June 06, 2009, 07:00 PM
It's hard to stop at 1 Ken McNeill kite.  ::)

What colors did you get?


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: dyfrgi on June 06, 2009, 07:13 PM
Red, yellow, and black. Red on the front and middle panels, yellow on the back middle panel, black on the wingtips. Not the neon yellow - oranger than that. I think it's the Mango fabric.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: UPNET on June 07, 2009, 08:55 AM
You are going to love the Muse. Very responsive without being twitchy. Fly your regular newbie patterns, figure eights, etc. Push and pull turns. Practice the basic stuff. With the Muse...even the basics don't get boring.
  We will... of course....require you to post a picture of your Muse... :)

Good Luck!

Chris


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Bob D on June 09, 2009, 06:16 AM
I'm a HUGE fan of the Blue Moon Kites! I have the 61/49 (WONDERFUL SLK) and an Exile. Once you see what Ken does, you'll want more! The Muse should keep you happy for quite a while! However, you'll start to itch for more. At that point, read the reviews of Ken's other kites. Decide on which family you want to go for and then start building a family of standard, UL, and vented. (I just checked - the Mantis offers all 3 variations. Venting generally only partially helps with higher wind. Tricking is a LOT harder when the wind is really blowing.)

Personally, I like the wind lighter and prefer it any place below 8 mph so the Exile is my preference.

I'm starting to itch for something besides a dual because I've got a pile now - I'm thinking Ichiban...


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Baws on July 23, 2009, 06:41 AM
Don't forget the Addition by Primer. This kite is highly under rated, for the money,it is a good kite to learn tricks on. Its pretty tough except for the standoffs. 

I love my Flashlight, but the Desire UL has got to go!


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: kiteflyer82 on August 12, 2009, 07:02 PM
I bought the Wisp for little to no wind and it was great. I was at the beach with two bags of kites and there was no wind, not even the palm trees were moving. So I got the wisp out and it flew amazing. And the best thing is that it is only 60 bucks.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: hedgewarden on August 14, 2009, 10:55 PM
I have all 3 Silver Foxes (Foxi?) in 2.5 size.  The UL is not really, with the weights in the tail.  I have problems flying in 6 mph winds (OK, so I'm no whiz).

I've found the Premier Addiction and Nighthawk can outfly the Fox in light winds.  The Nighthawk also has good precision.  I'm not a trickster, but I can easily axel both.  They don't hold a turtle as well as the SF, tho.

I'm not saying the Blue Moon kites and SF's are not as good (I wish I had a Mamba).  But that for lower winds, the Premier kites are easier to fly than the SF UL, and a lot less expensive.  Well, the Addiction is much less expensive, and the Nighthawk marginally so.  Neither is a true UL, but are better in my opinion than the SF in low winds.  I've never flown a BMK, but hope to some day soon.  I'm sure they'd fly circles around the other kites listed here.

I try to compare only kites that I have personally experienced under similar circumstances. I try to avoid "my favorite kite is an X so I know it is better than the Y which I have never flown."  I am also reluctant to advise a novice flier to buy a top-of-the line kite, when there are so many good intermediate level kites to grow on.  But take into account my perspective is an intermediate ballet flier, and less than novice trickster.

Now for an intermediate flier, with the resources, a top-of-the-line UL should be a serious contender.

Where I live, the winds are always bouncy (so I go to the coast to fly 90% of the time.)  The only kite in my bag that handles bouncy winds decently is my Yin-Yang.  But that is far from an UL - it works in our local gusty north-winds.

I'll shut up now.   :P 

 


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: RobB on August 15, 2009, 04:21 AM
I have all 3 Silver Foxes (Foxi?) in 2.5 size.  The UL is not really, with the weights in the tail.  I have problems flying in 6 mph winds (OK, so I'm no whiz).

I've found the Premier Addiction and Nighthawk can outfly the Fox in light winds.  The Nighthawk also has good precision.  I'm not a trickster, but I can easily axel both.  They don't hold a turtle as well as the SF, tho.

I'm not saying the Blue Moon kites and SF's are not as good (I wish I had a Mamba).  But that for lower winds, the Premier kites are easier to fly than the SF UL, and a lot less expensive.  Well, the Addiction is much less expensive, and the Nighthawk marginally so.  Neither is a true UL, but are better in my opinion than the SF in low winds.  I've never flown a BMK, but hope to some day soon.  I'm sure they'd fly circles around the other kites listed here.

I try to compare only kites that I have personally experienced under similar circumstances. I try to avoid "my favorite kite is an X so I know it is better than the Y which I have never flown."  I am also reluctant to advise a novice flier to buy a top-of-the line kite, when there are so many good intermediate level kites to grow on.  But take into account my perspective is an intermediate ballet flier, and less than novice trickster.

Now for an intermediate flier, with the resources, a top-of-the-line UL should be a serious contender.

Where I live, the winds are always bouncy (so I go to the coast to fly 90% of the time.)  The only kite in my bag that handles bouncy winds decently is my Yin-Yang.  But that is far from an UL - it works in our local gusty north-winds.

I'll shut up now.   :P 

 

Hey there...
It sounds like there might be something wrong with your SF UL. I know it's not a 'true' UL, but I would think that it should have a better bottom end than that...
~Rob.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: hedgewarden on August 15, 2009, 11:18 PM
On the Kitelife forum, others have also mentioned the lack of light wind flying abilities of the SF "UL".

I have not tried it, but I read that removing the tail weight helps, (duh!) and some have removed the upper spreader.  That would change the handling.  I have been to lazy to try it.  I figure that if a kite is supposed to fly in light winds, it should do so with all the normal flight aids attached.

However, yesterday I confirmed my prior comparison of the SF, Addiction, and Nighthawk. The latter have no tail weights, giving them some advantage wind-wise, but not trick-wise.  I finally moved the SF bridle from the orange beads to the blue beads (that is kind of an SF insider thingy ;) ).  The speed picked up noticeably, the responses were quicker, and the straight line tracking was noticeably not so good - falling between the Addiction and the Nighthawk.

Still, I think there are better ULs than the Silver Fox.  Without going into debt for a really great UL kite, though, I only have experience with an HQ Floater (decent beginner's kite - probably no trick potential, and no longer made), HQ Tango (replaced the Floater? - better but still not for intermediate fliers.  Axels well, I do no other tricks), and HQ Breeze (Very nice UL or near UL beginner-intermediate, but old design which I think is no longer available)  These are basically $50 to $150 kites I believe (I got them all at substantial discount)

If you find any useful information in the above, you are welcome to it!  :P :P


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Steve Hall on August 15, 2009, 11:32 PM
Interesting, but If you are prefer the Addiction or Nighthawk to the SF 2.5 UL I don't think we are flying the same kite or we have radically different tastes in kites (and I like the the Nighthawk a lot).


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: RobB on August 16, 2009, 04:07 AM
On the Kitelife forum, others have also mentioned the lack of light wind flying abilities of the SF "UL".

I have not tried it, but I read that removing the tail weight helps, (duh!) and some have removed the upper spreader.  That would change the handling.  I have been to lazy to try it.  I figure that if a kite is supposed to fly in light winds, it should do so with all the normal flight aids attached.

However, yesterday I confirmed my prior comparison of the SF, Addiction, and Nighthawk. The latter have no tail weights, giving them some advantage wind-wise, but not trick-wise.  I finally moved the SF bridle from the orange beads to the blue beads (that is kind of an SF insider thingy ;) ).  The speed picked up noticeably, the responses were quicker, and the straight line tracking was noticeably not so good - falling between the Addiction and the Nighthawk.

Still, I think there are better ULs than the Silver Fox.  Without going into debt for a really great UL kite, though, I only have experience with an HQ Floater (decent beginner's kite - probably no trick potential, and no longer made), HQ Tango (replaced the Floater? - better but still not for intermediate fliers.  Axels well, I do no other tricks), and HQ Breeze (Very nice UL or near UL beginner-intermediate, but old design which I think is no longer available)  These are basically $50 to $150 kites I believe (I got them all at substantial discount)

If you find any useful information in the above, you are welcome to it!  :P :P

Hey Howard….
I have to do all of that monkey business to my Zephyr to get it to fly down to its advertised low end wind speed. Remove the upper spreader, adjust the bridle, remove the weight (I actually never fly the Zeph with the weight). If you’re a Kitelife member, you should have access to a video that John B. made flying the SF UL in some light winds. I don’t remember how low he was flying it in, but he sure did a nice job with it.
I have flown the HQ Floater, it is more of a low wind kite than the Zephyr, but not as tricky. The HQ Shadow is excellent for low winds and it can trick, as well. The NikNak is a great choice if you aren’t interested in too many tricks, but it will fly in no wind all the way up to 10mph, I think.
~Rob.


Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: tpatter on August 16, 2009, 09:30 AM
Interesting, but If you are prefer the Addiction or Nighthawk to the SF 2.5 UL I don't think we are flying the same kite or we have radically different tastes in kites (and I like the the Nighthawk a lot).

+1.

I don't think you can get a better tricking kite for the same low cost of the SF.  I've yet to fly anything else in its price range that I really liked.

The SF is slow, stable, reliable, and predictable to fly and trick.  The UL needs a bit more wind than some other ULs, but it goes reasonably low.  Hate to say numbers, but I'm sure I've flown mine in 2/3 without much effort - 3/6 is ideal.  I preferred the UL to my QPro SUL.



Title: Re: best beginner 2-line kite for inland (low wind) flyers?
Post by: Hadge on August 21, 2009, 04:55 AM
For a fairly cheap, but very capable trick kite try looking at the HQ Jive. Here in the UK it retails at around £70, it flies very nicely from a genuine 4mph ( maybe a little less) to around 20mph ( HQ quote 24mph but the wings are starting to flap at 20!). It's a tough little kite and, being made from simple 5mm & 6mm carbon tubes, it's easy and cheap to repair if anything breaks.  It will perform almost any trick you can throw at it.  It's a great learner kite with the potential to take you a long way, I prefer mine to my Addiction. I regularly fly inland and would throughly recommend it.


Title: answer this post
Post by: HelenJames on July 26, 2010, 06:11 AM
Something alike was discussed on the Yahoo! Answers last week, i can share a link if you want some