GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Beginners Corner => Topic started by: Tmadz on February 22, 2013, 04:38 AM



Title: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Tmadz on February 22, 2013, 04:38 AM
I am beginning a new business venture that is going to require lots of time, but I have a couple of parks very close that I can run to for some needed sanity time. The problem is they are ringed by trees, so I don't expect to have any clean winds.  As a result, I am looking for a UL/SUL to fly most of the time that will be tolerant of those reduced winds. I gather that's an oxymoron. I searched the forum and heard great things about the Shadow, but also was possibly interested in the Ocius. I'm currently saving up for a WM std. Am I barking up the wrong tree?


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Hadge on February 22, 2013, 05:05 AM
The Shadow is a great kite, although it is sold as a UL it is virtually a SUL as it will fly from a little above 1mph and go up to around 8mph before it starts to feel uncomfortable.  It's pretty tough too, I've had mine 3 years and only broken one LLE - it split at the ferrule and I didn't even notice until I packed up! Most tricks are in there with only one pop yoyo's being difficult, beautiful 540's and it's a backspin monster!!

The downside is that some folks find it very twitchy straight from the bag, it only needs very small inputs and can oversteer a lot, also as the bridle is tied from unsleeved dyneema line the knots have a habit of slipping.  The good news is that Norm P has developed a bridle that removes almost all of the oversteer without effecting the trick capability and makes it a much nicer kite to fly.

You will struggle to find a better, trickier UL/SUL for the money - better kites are out there but at a price.

If any Shadow owners want to try an experiment - I've fitted mine with a P200 spine with a 5gram weight top and bottom and it seems to make it better at flic flacs and lets you do one pop yoyo's.  Yes it is slightly heavier but has more inertia.  It would be interesting to get a second opinion.



Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: RobB on February 22, 2013, 05:09 AM
Well, it's not like any kite is going to excell under those conditions. A single line glider keeps coming to my mind. Being that the Shadow and Ocius are about the same $$$, I would choose the Skyburner product, just because they make a fine kite, American made, and from what I see, it looks more capable than the Shadow. The only edge the Shadow might have would be the design, I love the way my Shadow looks, but you can't get the rainbow pattern anymore.

(http://ferob.com/kites/P1070304.jpg)


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: hawkerhunter on February 22, 2013, 06:55 AM
Hi Tmadz

My advise if you can find one is the Talon UL. This kite flies with similar characteristics as the Talon standard but in lighter winds.

(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8219/8327467928_7882054edf.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88824763@N07/8327467928/)
talon (http://www.flickr.com/photos/88824763@N07/8327467928/#) by hawkerhunter (http://www.flickr.com/people/88824763@N07/), on Flickr

It may be more than you want to pay but I cannot praise this kite enough. Marc Clements has said that he considers the Talon UL his best creation. Ive had mine for about 4 months now and it has brought my flying on no end. Everyone should have one of these IMO.

Steve


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: zippy8 on February 22, 2013, 07:49 AM
The problem is they are ringed by trees, so I don't expect to have any clean winds.  As a result, I am looking for a UL/SUL to fly most of the time that will be tolerant of those reduced winds.

If you really are reduced to continually flying in a wind shadow and the turbulence that comes with it then perhaps a smaller kite that you can~will have to pull around would suit you but can also handle some wind and take the inevitable near-ground experiences that come with your flying location.

That'd be one of these (http://www.chicokites.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=350) then.

Nothing wrong with the other suggestions BTW but they'd probably deserve better wind conditions than you're offering.

Mike.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: goestoeleven on February 22, 2013, 08:07 AM
Tmadz . . . . I'll say this despite the danger that I'll get trashed in this thread for being a quad-head . . . .

I'll loan you one of my Rev SULs . . . .  ;)

We'll get you over to the dark side yet . . . c'mon, you know you want to . . . . we have cookies, and they are delicious.

When's the shop opening up?



Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: ko on February 22, 2013, 08:54 AM
Mikes Idea Or if you can get no or very low wind conditions between the trees go with an indoor kite. There are many and they will keep you flying


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: vertigo2u on February 22, 2013, 09:12 AM
Tmadz,
First,do not pass up anything Free from Norm. ASK for money. :D :D :D

I'll send you my Ocius Sul to try when the weather changes... You'll understand Rob's comments better.  Quailty is an important factor in a Sul.  The weight. 
Also, If the wind is completely gone.  Order an I-Nak or Nik Nak.  They will fly and trick.

 Devin's new "Aura" is really the ultimate answer. :P :P :-* :-* :-* :P :-*

It may be ready before spring... ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? 


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: RobB on February 22, 2013, 09:47 AM
The NikNak (my first REAL SUL) will fly in zero wind, but I found it to be twitchy in anything over ~3mph, and it doesn't really have tricks like the modern SULs have. Joe's right, Devin's got that new Aura that looks very promising. I really liked what I saw in the Ocius, many people posted impressive videos of it. The 4D will fly in the conditions you describe, but I didn't suggest it because it's so twitchy and small. I think of it as a good kite for a kid, my son loves his & it takes his punishment like a champ.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Tmadz on February 22, 2013, 11:12 AM
All good suggestions guys. Thanks. I will say these parks are bordered on one side by a river running N-S so I hope to be able to get some wind depending on the direction. Not the Mississippi, but not a creek either.

I found the thread about Norms modified bridle for the Shadow and the comments were favorable. That's what started me looking. I prefer the rainbow and purple though.

Vertigo, thank you. That is a very kind offer and I might take you up on it. It would give me an excuse to visit Jon T's shop. I'm opening a local branch of a MI based business. The colors are black and orange with a B and I know there's one right near Skyburner headquarters. I was looking to get Jon to help me design a WM in those colors. Also, I didn't realize the Ocius was so close to the Shadow in price.

I love the look of the Talon, but a bit out of my range right now. Maybe someday. I'm just worried if they prefer beach winds.

PS. I have to admit the strength of these winter winds certainly has me thinking about Rev full vent for next winter.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Wayner on February 22, 2013, 11:33 AM
My neighborhood park lined with trees and two story houses it has a soccer field in the middle and a UL should work find.

Flying in low wind requires new skills. Flying an SUL is very limiting in trick ability. So is learning new skills going to create joy or frustration?

Rob idea of a glider is a good simple option. Thses are kites that you can become proficient quickly. Most of the members of our Friday night fly have switched to gliders from SUL. I'm still a SUL holdout, but it's taken a long time to develop my low wind skills.
 
The Talon UL is excellent but requires more wind that the other UL listed here. The higher wind requirement is not a criticism. This is a UL that performs as well as a std without sacrifices other UL make.

Never cared for the 4D. It is a small kite. This makes it very twitchy and hard to trick. But if you fly it a lot you will develop the skill to control it.

Hadge's review of the Shadow is spot on. This was the 1st UL I bought and it was twitchy for me. The Shadow is an advanced kite, can't believe what I can do with it now that my skills have improved. Norm's bridle is a good option it solve the twitchiness and it provides stronger feedback thought the line.

The Ocuis is an advanced freestyle kite. The Ocuis loves to do combos and being a smaller kite it love to do them quickly. Because of that, its not well suited for beginners IMHO. I don't own one as its to advanced for me.  I like precision and the Ocuis does not have any, its lack of control allows for those  fast combos. Plus it dumps sail pressure easily, making it a difficult kite to learn on. Amazing to watch skilled pilots fly them. Hope someday to have the skill level to fly this baby.  The SUL version is the tricky for an SUL. It has a stiff frame compared to the other SULs I have flown.

+1 on Rob experence with the NikNak. Wish I still had mine.

Two other choices are the WM UL and the Freestylist. UL. Both EASY  to fly (having strong feedback on the lines and precision.) and are true ULs. They are close to the Shadow winds range. When I was first starting I found the Shadow twitchy so I preferred these kites. The Freestylist is a good option at a lower prices than the WM UL.

Good luck with the new business, and good winds.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: vertigo2u on February 22, 2013, 12:14 PM
 :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Just got in from Running the "Snow Blower" 11hp. Heavy Snow. We had three neighborhood machines going.  Look on line.  Then I started to laugh  :D :D :D :D :D and the pain went away...  :) :)

Thanks Norm  :-* :-* :-*.... You have no idea how I needed that .. ;D ;D ;D ;D

On a serious Note:  It will be fun learning a new trick.  Weather should clear soon.

The Pelican is a nice Wallpaper.

What city are you moving the business too in Michigan ??



Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: tpatter on February 22, 2013, 12:25 PM
I'd say it depends on what your goals are.

If you want to fly and not trick all that much except for perhaps rotational stuff like 540 and slots, etc, then there are many kites that do that pretty well in near-no wind including many indoor kites.  With these kites, its more of a coaxing affair.  The issue is that they are not very tricky and do not generally like to be man-handled.

If you want it to fly more like a standard kite, then there are less choices in my opinion.   I like to trick a kite nearly all the time that its in the air and my favorite UL/SUL works well with that strategy even in near-no wind.  It has enough mass to throw it around and tricks like the backspin, multi lazy, and even the JL to some degree cause the kite to generate enough air disturbance that it will literally float/hover itself.  So, as long as you keep tricking, it will stay in the air even when there is not sufficient wind to fly squares.  I also like some yoyo ability - one pop preferred.  Again, many SULs don't do that well, although 2 pop usually works.

No all kites will float while tricking, but many will certainly for the backspin and multi lazy, although the JL is much less common - many kites lose altitude on that one and you will be briskly walking backwards.

For my $, I like the following:

Transformer SUL - Not a SUL in the 4D sense, but this kite tricks better than most standards and has a large wind range - no compromises at all.  If you are looking for a UL/SUL as your post says, this would be the one I would suggest.

TNT Zero - Very much a 'true' SUL - this one has taken the place of my 4D for no-wind flying.  It does rotational stuff amazingly well and is not twitchy at all like most light-weight kites.  Its flys and feels like a regular kite.  It flys well in low wind and does most tricks, but I much prefer the way that the Trans tricks overall.  I choose this one when the wind is so low that I will be peppering my flying with 360s due to no wind lulls.  It has a nice combination of low weight, but also remains chuckable.

Shadow - I really like this kite, but it does have a light-touch feel to it which some flyers don't care for.  It is a smooth flyer and tricks well and easily, but it will require some getting used to in order for it to perform well for you in doing tricks.



Good luck,
Tom


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Tmadz on February 22, 2013, 01:54 PM
I like learning the tricking. I got a Premier Widow from that Jon T reframed to a resemble a UL. I have actually been able to learn more and faster with it, but I have to work on smooth input and hand quickness. Would going for a SUL/extra light UL mess me up? I thought that it might be a good tool to hone my inputs. I've gotten good at rotational tricks and am learning more about lines and bridles.

I forgot about the freestylist. I think I'll call Jon and talk to him. I try to keep my money as local as possible and American if I can.

I'm not moving my business, but opening an IL location with them.

Thanks again guys for all of the input.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: RobB on February 22, 2013, 03:16 PM
No, learning to fly an UL or SUL in light winds will help your flying across the board. It did for me, and if I had to choose just one kind of flying, it would be in 1-3mph winds, hands down. I'm becoming quite a wind snob, and switch to the quad or single liners in double digit winds.
There is quite a rush in flying winds that kites shouldn't be able to fly in...

BTW... good luck with your new venture.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: vertigo2u on February 22, 2013, 03:48 PM
On a couple of my last videos... I am flying in the park behind my home.  As I said once before it's not good in the summer ... Way too many trees and houses on all four sides... Becuase of other places I fly... I take off for good air.

If you watch the videos of me flying my Ocius Sul (red/blk/white).  I am on short lines.  Just doing touch and goes.  Trying to take off and land in the same spot.  Wing tip landings.  540's.  Half axels,axels...etc. I even like to walk the kite across the ground.  Everything I am doing in that Video.  I really never thought I could do.  But I practice very light air.  I love 2/3mph.  I love 5/6 mph.  Give me those numbers and the beach ... "...Forgetta 'bout it...".

I think I posted a video of flying all three in one day... Ul Sul I-Nak.

Land the kite and walk it towards yourself.  I didn't get that till last winter when I landed on the Ice. I was skating.  Then took it to land.  I really enjoy practicing with 60'-75' 50# lines.  The Widow Maker Ul flys very well in 1/2 mph with short lines...

If you got one of the Blue and White Widows.  You got a deal.  JT work his butt to make sure they flew right...

Still Big Difference between Widow and Widow Maker.

Like I said you can try one of Sul's when weather changes in a few weeks.  Rob I already told you..I'd send her. 

I've been talking with Gleb from Russia (lurker)  I thinking about sending my WM to Russia this summer. 

IDEA !!!! Some of us who communicate together need to look in our kite bags... Maybe make up One Bag of everybody's kites.  And Have a Share ... Cost of shipping ??? Cheap ...The only thing needed is Trust.

I'd trust a number of names on the screen.  ;D ;D I started listing peoples names and realized there are a number of people I'd trust with my kites... From  ;D Norm to  ;D Tom P to  ;D Wayne,  try listing people you'd trust in a group of five guys sharing.  Lot of names. ;) ;) ;)  I 'd like to fly a Talon or a Shadow or Laims kites... Prism kites

What do others think ... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\

 


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: goestoeleven on February 22, 2013, 04:29 PM
I like your bag share idea, vertigo2u, although I don't have anything dual line pilots would be interested in flying.  Plus, the bag would have to be small enough to ship reasonably.  Maybe a tube of kites would work as an alternative. 

Hey - isn't sharing part of what kite club meetings are for?  Unfortunately we IKErs don't get together enough, especially in the winter here in Illinois.  Had to shovel snow this morning . . . . . still hoping to get some flight time this weekend.

Listening to you guys talk about all the tricks . . . . makes me want to fly some dual lines again.  Maybe Tmadz can teach me something.  Hey Tmadz - there's an IKE club fly on the 2nd, if you can make it . . .


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: tcope on February 22, 2013, 05:34 PM
There is a difference between low winds and bad wind. A SUL/UL will help in low winds but not a whole lot on bad wind. I don't know of any kite that will really compensate for bad wind. They may help a little but in the end you really need to find a better place to fly.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: dayhiker on February 22, 2013, 06:02 PM
Lots of interesting comments above.  I am the beginner that lives in the Southern mountains with very compromised flying locations locally.  But I have lucked into a used Shadow, have a 4D & fly a Rev Power Blast 2-4 for a light wind quad.  I get to fly five hours a week in cold conditions now.  The main thing I have found out is no matter what kites you have, no matter where you can fly, get some time in the sky.  The kites that are mentioned are all good choices I'm sure.  While I will upgrade to fancier kites eventually I love the ones I have now & they are way more capable than my level of usage.  Had really smooth 6 mph wind today & made progress.  Fly the bad winds, the strong winds, the gusty stuff, try the snow storms & rain too.  Just my thoughts, thanks for being on the forum.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: trigger on February 22, 2013, 08:24 PM
Goestoeleven, i have something you can try, i may be at the ike gathering if i have the day off. If you do want to try something send me an im...  i can always fly the revs!  I am kind of a double agent of the darkside :-)


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: goestoeleven on February 23, 2013, 12:15 AM
Hey trigger, good to hear from you.  Hope you can make it to the club fly.  Thanks for the offer.  I think much of the day for me will be team practice, but maybe on one of our breaks . . . I have some dual line kites - they just don't get much flying time compared to the revs.  I still have so much work to get my rev precision where I want it to be that I spend most of my flying time on revs.  That said, I'd like to get some time on duals in before the festival season starts up in earnest.  Not that I'll be good at anything.  It's just that all flying time is good time. 


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Tmadz on February 23, 2013, 05:43 AM
I'm gonna try the parks first and see what wind shows up. After that I'll be able to see if wind is too turbulent or non-existent. The tips and suggestions made me think about a couple of things in a different way, but my favorite was to just fly more. While that might be difficult, it's only a few blocks walk with a kite bag and anytime outside is good time. The more I fly the better I'll be able to tell what I might need.

Trig/11, I can't make it to the club fly. Just too much work to do. I will take you guys up on your offers to try your Revs. What could it hurt?


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: trigger on February 23, 2013, 07:08 AM
tmadz,  if you want to try the 4d for awhile just to see how it reacts i can send it to you.  It probably won't be the kite you choose but will let you fly in your new field and check out the conditions.

let me know

jim


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: goestoeleven on February 23, 2013, 07:52 AM
Yeah, what trigger said.  Let me know if you want to borrow a rev, too.

When's the business open up?  I'll need to drop by and spend some money . . . many Saturdays I'm up in Wayne for an hour as my daughter has some lessons there, so it's not far (I think) from  your place.


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: vertigo2u on February 23, 2013, 02:47 PM
Got some nice response to Sahring.  As soon as weather changes with Day Light savings.  I am ready.  Rob we start to fly the Wednesday after day light savings start.  Any time after that.  I'd like to have a couple of your kites for Jon to try also.  And If I crash em' he can fix em '  hehehehehe ... I can package up a WMstd Wm Ul Ocius Sul ....  I will check with Jon this week.  I can have him break em' down. I all for it... Others ???


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: trigger on February 25, 2013, 05:57 PM
 :D

Gonna have that engraved! 


Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Wayner on February 25, 2013, 07:48 PM

IDEA !!!! Some of us who communicate together need to look in our kite bags... Maybe make up One Bag of everybody's kites.  And Have a Share ... Cost of shipping ??? Cheap ...The only thing needed is Trust.

I'd trust a number of names on the screen.  ;D ;D I started listing peoples names and realized there are a number of people I'd trust with my kites... From  ;D Norm to  ;D Tom P to  ;D Wayne,  try listing people you'd trust in a group of five guys sharing.  Lot of names. ;) ;) ;)  I 'd like to fly a Talon or a Shadow or Laims kites... Prism kites

What do others think ... :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\


Sounds interesting  ;)



Title: Re: UL/SUL suggestion for unsteady winds
Post by: Tmadz on April 18, 2013, 07:45 PM
I forgot about the freestylist. I think I'll call Jon and talk to him. I try to keep my money as local as possible and American if I can.
Do you have any intentions on buying a HQ Shadow? If not, I have someone that would like to have the Modified Bridle I offered to you. Please let me know. thanks, Norm

Sorry for the late response Norm. Let em have it if you haven't already. I haven't even flown anything yet. It will be a while before I finally figure out what I need. Today the park i am going to fly in is currently underwater after the river over flowed its banks with some heavy storms passing through