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Kite Land Talk => Kite Land Events => Topic started by: chilese on March 13, 2013, 01:48 PM



Title: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: chilese on March 13, 2013, 01:48 PM
At Kite Party, Mr. Shenkman has the unenviable task of attempting

to please everyone all the time. Over the years, the event is semi-unplanned

except for 2 demo periods of about 30 minutes per day. Most of the kiters

have seen the demos many times. And even if the routine is changed, the

overall feel is similar.

For whom are the demos performed (zippy8  sentence structure)?

The crowd at the beach is 99.9% non kite savvy. The Sundowners flying

stacks with tails would get more notice than any of the Rev routines.

And sadly, I could fly a sport kite with a huge tube tail and hold more interest

than any of the much better fliers performing solo.

Ray Bethell would be a great go-to guy, but then he has been performing since

mud was invented.

The average "age" of the music performed during demos was about 40 years with

Whitney Houston (1993) being the newest song. Even Mr. Barresi's excellent

"Barber of Seville" routine is a soundtrack 60 years old.

If we are to hold the interest of the facebook/twitter/instagram kids and young

parents, we could at least grab some music less than a decade old. I'm not saying

it's music the pilot likes, just something that the passer-by can hum along to a song

by Maroon 5, Pink, Pitbull, Justin Timberlake or the Killers.

If we want new fliers, we can at least start with newer music.

Okay, back to my Mumford and Sons CD. Carry on.  :)



Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: tpatter on March 13, 2013, 02:22 PM
I've been to many festivals and I agree that you have an excellent point.  It's true that most of the great demo flyers seem to re-use the same music again and again.  I can see why as its very difficult to find a piece that works extremely well and they have also been working on perfecting flying to it and have much time invested.

I've seen certain music work really well during hot tricks where, at least in the PNW, random current  music is played during the flying.  You have no idea what is coming up, but its always catchy, recognizable, and engaging. 

I guess that one difference is that a ballet is usually thoroughly planned and practiced to a certain track, where this other sort of exhibition flying is really about entertaining the crowd, but not necessarily impressing them in an artistic way.

-Tom


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: Allen Carter on March 13, 2013, 02:57 PM
To entertain a crowd the music must be recognizable and enjoyable by a large percentage of spectators. Of course, it must also be practical as kite music.

"Classics" generally fill the bill as a huge majority of spectators of almost any age recognize something like Bohemian Rhapsody, Bugs Bunny or even (god forbid) Whitney Houston.  One of the main ways to wow a crowd is to hit major features of a routine at obvious points in the music. If these opportunities in the music aren't obvious to the spectator, the cool thing that just happened in the air in perfect synch to the music is sort of lost. There is less "That was COOL!" in the crowd.

There's a video on YouTube from last Saturday taken from the audience during iQuad's 'Rhapsody. It's clear that the crowd is anticipating the action in the sky, and it's obvious they are enjoying the show.

I'd say a spectator would be more likely to enjoy a killer routine set to BoRhap and possibly look forward to the same or similar next year than just about any recent music I can think of. It's not that recent music is bad, of course not, it just doesn't fit the parameters of kite demos.

I'm more concerned with the quality of music over the PA throughout the day. Last year was really bad, and in one nicely produced civilian video there is actually a disclaimer that the music was NOT the choice of the shooter, but was part of KP.

There's always a balance of this thing being for kiters vs. for spectators. I think we need music throughout the day that has overall appeal, for the diverse KP population and the guy walking on the pier who has to listen to it too.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: DavidformerlyDavid on March 13, 2013, 03:23 PM
  I have to agree with Allen, and not just because he still has my big kite bag.  ;)

  I think a well-performed routine is the main attribute of this event.  And to the common observer, it's not unlike Olympic figure skating.  Heck, we only see that every 2 years, and everyone's an armchair expert by the end of the competition. Consider that most of the pieces used for those routines are over a HUNDRED years old!  I imagine that there are folks who look forward to the routines once/year just like many of us enjoy the figure skating every other year (used to be four years).

  If anything, I think John's challenge is for performers to work out new routines to more modern music.  This in itself is a challenge, and probably due to the nature of media.  Certainly "Bohemian Rhapsody" became a cultural meme for millions, and that lasted for a long, long time.  Nowadays, however, the cycle is much shorter, and "Call Me Maybe" becomes "Gangnam Style" becomes "Harlem Shuffle".  Heck, by the time you could work out a routine, the tune is already ancient history.  (Still, I'd love to see Chilese do a routine to "Gangnam Style"... ::))  So the challenge I would propose is a routine to some newer musical vein.

  And as a devout Bugs Bunny fan, I must assert that since the Foley sounds are in the mix, JB's routine is more precisely described as flown to "The Rabbit of Seville".   ;D


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: RobB on March 13, 2013, 03:52 PM
Quote
just something that the passer-by can hum along to a song

by Maroon 5, Pink, Pitbull, Justin Timberlake or the Killers.

Here's the sad thing... I have no idea who any of those artists are, or what they perform. I haven't heard anything I've liked on the radio since the 80s...  :o


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: Allen Carter on March 13, 2013, 04:01 PM
Hey John, remember why you chose Pink Panther for your ballet music? Remember that killer 540 on the horn blast?

You just can't fly an expressive ballet to most pop music. There's not enough there. I could take my top 100 favorite songs from all eras and I doubt any would be really appropriate for kite ballet.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: Ca Ike on March 13, 2013, 05:09 PM
If you just limit the genre then yea you will find on average 60% of the songs will not lend themselves to a good "Rev" ballet routine.  I have to disagree that you can't fly a good dual or even a solo rev routine to modern music.  Here's an example i did last summer in this thread http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6209.0 (http://www.gwtwforum.com/index.php?topic=6209.0)  Granted I'm a better flier now and that one was completely "off the cuff" flown but it can still be done.

I'll agree with Allen though that last years KP music was bad and I heard lots of comments from beach goers about the demo music being better than the rest that was played.  YOu can't please everyone with every song but a mix of all genre's and era's is going to have a better chance than locking into the obscure alternative stuff played last year.  Can't speak for this year though since I wasn't there.  Personally some "Jump" blues, maybe some Funk like Tower of Power added to the mix would be nice.  There's even some rap/hip hop that is good too,  but none of the sappy modern R&B crap being called music.  I hear a song being sung through a voice modulator using a lot of reverb and I start wishing I was deaf.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: DaveS on March 13, 2013, 07:31 PM
I would like to ask one simple question. If the music last year was so bad (by the way, I didn't choose it), why the Hell didn't anyone say anything to me?! Did I miss something? Did someone comment on how bad it was last year and I missed it? While you may find it hard to believe, I am so engaged in what is going on on the fields, I don't really notice what's being played. How was it this year? Ya know guys, I kind of need to know what you think. I will tell you that THIS year, it was my ipod, I simply went through and picked a bunch of stuff that I like, moved it to a folder, and hit "shuffle play". Anyway, in the end, this is likely a moot point.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: chilese on March 13, 2013, 08:20 PM
Frankly, I thought the music last year during the day was the most diverse, evenly spread set

of tunes we've had. The DJ even downloaded a Brandon Flowers (Killers lead vocalist) song for me.

He played everything from classic rock (Aldo Nova "Life is Just a Fantasy") to songs within the

previous 12 months.

This thread was about demo music.

The fliers in iQuad and Too Much Fun are superb. They could do called out formations to any

4/4 rock music and the crowd would not care. No one is going to say, "Oh, if only there had

been a crescendo for the burst formation."

I competed for 3 years and used movie soundtracks almost exclusively. But once, I flew to

"The Walls Came Down" and a few guys told me it was a welcome change. I didn't do well in

that particular event.

Dave can't please everyone all the time. But he does come very close.

I'm wondering myself what was so bad about the general music. It was the best mix in 11 years.

Not that everyone likes the newer music. But there are more views for Justin Bieber and Lady Gaga

than Night Ranger and Aerosmith will ever get.

We need the next generation of fliers drawn in. You don't get them with "Takin care of Business".


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: Ca Ike on March 13, 2013, 11:48 PM
I would like to ask one simple question. If the music last year was so bad (by the way, I didn't choose it), why the Hell didn't anyone say anything to me?! Did I miss something? Did someone comment on how bad it was last year and I missed it? While you may find it hard to believe, I am so engaged in what is going on on the fields, I don't really notice what's being played. How was it this year? Ya know guys, I kind of need to know what you think. I will tell you that THIS year, it was my ipod, I simply went through and picked a bunch of stuff that I like, moved it to a folder, and hit "shuffle play". Anyway, in the end, this is likely a moot point.
Sorry Dave, but I heard more than a few times "What kind if crazy crap are they listening to?" in a variety of colorful ways from spectators.  For me I couldn't find a groove in most of what was played last year to fly to but thats just my personal preference, I like to fly to what I'm listening to even if its just figures. I found myself mentally tuning out the music a lot while flying but it was the friends and fellow fliers (and the flying) that brought me there and will have me coming back again, not the music.  It was still a great weekend and I wish I could have made it this year too but it just wasn't in the cards.

Anyway back on topic.  There are a lot of songs in all genre's that can be flown to and all you have to do is watch different vids to see that.  IT all depends on the kite and flying style with that kite.  Rev's don't lend themselves easily to the more aggressive types of music unless you get away from the B series and go with the faster rev 2 or speed series revs.  The supersonic routine Alex did at KP9 is a good example.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 14, 2013, 12:46 AM
I don't think the music needs to be anything Top 20 related though. Honestly, as a 26 year old, I've loved kite videos with music genres all the way from Hans Zimmer to trance. And I know I'm not alone in this. Movie music always sparks an interest in an observer and they'll come ask you where they've heard it before, even if they don't care about the kite. ;D But if you play the same song over and over, no wonder people walk away...

So I don't think the ballet music matters, but in events it's important to play something upbeat between the slower and calmer songs. It's kinda the same as in any disco/techno party or even a rock concert or an opera, you want to wake people up first, then ask them to pay attention, and then give them something upbeat again. Even adults' attention span can be ridiculously short. And I wouldn't want people to leave the event feeling sleepy.

By the way, who decided it should be called a ballet? That alone pushes younger generations away.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Ca Ike on March 14, 2013, 01:06 AM
I don't think the music needs to be anything Top 20 related though. Honestly, as a 26 year old, I've loved kite videos with music genres all the way from Hans Zimmer to trance. And I know I'm not alone in this. Movie music always sparks an interest in an observer when they come ask you where they've heard it before, even if they don't care about the kite. ;D But if you play the same song over and over, no wonder people walk away...

So I don't think the ballet music matters, but in events it's important to play something upbeat between the slower and calmer songs. It's kinda the same as in any disco/techno party, you want to wake people up first, then ask them to watch, and then give them something upbeat again. Even adults' attention span can be ridiculously short. And I wouldn't want people to leave the event feeling sleepy.

By the way, who decided it should be called a ballet? That alone pushes younger generations away.
bal·let  [ba-ley, bal-ey]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a classical dance form demanding grace and precision and employing formalized steps and gestures set in intricate, flowing patterns to create expression through movement.


I believe thats why its called ballet.  Essentially thats what we do only with kites and in competitions there are required or compulsory figures that are chosen for the entrants to do just like the standard moves in ballet.  Unless its open freestyle flying, competitions are a lot like ballet.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 14, 2013, 01:21 AM
I don't think the music needs to be anything Top 20 related though. Honestly, as a 26 year old, I've loved kite videos with music genres all the way from Hans Zimmer to trance. And I know I'm not alone in this. Movie music always sparks an interest in an observer when they come ask you where they've heard it before, even if they don't care about the kite. ;D But if you play the same song over and over, no wonder people walk away...

So I don't think the ballet music matters, but in events it's important to play something upbeat between the slower and calmer songs. It's kinda the same as in any disco/techno party, you want to wake people up first, then ask them to watch, and then give them something upbeat again. Even adults' attention span can be ridiculously short. And I wouldn't want people to leave the event feeling sleepy.

By the way, who decided it should be called a ballet? That alone pushes younger generations away.
bal·let  [ba-ley, bal-ey]  Show IPA
noun
1.
a classical dance form demanding grace and precision and employing formalized steps and gestures set in intricate, flowing patterns to create expression through movement.


I believe thats why its called ballet.  Essentially thats what we do only with kites and in competitions there are required or compulsory figures that are chosen for the entrants to do just like the standard moves in ballet.  Unless its open freestyle flying, competitions are a lot like ballet.

I get that, and I agree, but go ahead and ask a teenager or a young adult who has never seen one come and watch a kite "ballet", the reaction will probably be the same as if you asked them to go to an opera or a real ballet. If they say okay, it's usually just to please you.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 14, 2013, 04:27 AM
I don't think the music needs to be anything Top 20 related though. Honestly, as a 26 year old, I've loved kite videos with music genres all the way from Hans Zimmer to trance. And I know I'm not alone in this. Movie music always sparks an interest in an observer and they'll come ask you where they've heard it before, even if they don't care about the kite. ;D But if you play the same song over and over, no wonder people walk away...

So I don't think the ballet music matters, but in events it's important to play something upbeat between the slower and calmer songs. It's kinda the same as in any disco/techno party or even a rock concert or an opera, you want to wake people up first, then ask them to pay attention, and then give them something upbeat again. Even adults' attention span can be ridiculously short. And I wouldn't want people to leave the event feeling sleepy.

By the way, who decided it should be called a ballet? That alone pushes younger generations away.



She does make a good point... Kite ballet does sound like a bit of an eye-roller.   ::)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jared on March 14, 2013, 06:46 AM
As much as I can't stand modern popular music, I do make it a point to try and include one new song each year for my demos.  My competition ballet routines are usually based on older music (mostly soundtracks, some funk), but when I'm flying demos, I go with something the crowd will recognize.  Last year, it was LMFAO's "Sexy & I Know It," which really lit up the crowd at the Blossom Kite Festival.   Two years ago, it was "Blow" by Kesha.

This year, I've been flying demos to "I Will Wait" by Mumford and Sons.  Anecdotally, I think it's working, because I'm not losing spectators when I demo.  Having a 9 year old daughter helps, because she gives me an idea what's currently popular.  The biggest challenge is trying to find a new piece of music that isn't too repetitive and can support a choreographed routine.

We're very lucky on the East Coast to have festival sound guys like Terry Murray and Dennis Smith, who keep an ear on current popular music and don't just play the same ol' stuff year after year :)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please
Post by: Allen Carter on March 14, 2013, 09:30 AM
I would like to ask one simple question. If the music last year was so bad (by the way, I didn't choose it), why the Hell didn't anyone say anything to me?!

Sorry for the hijack...

For years you've said "If you don't like the music, bring some". Last year I made a pretty extensive playlist and burned it to a stack of CDs. Everything from Nirvana to Cab Calloway, with the notion that if someone doesn't like a song they'll probably like the next one. I gave the disks to the sound guy with a printed list and told him he could pick and choose songs or play straight from the CD. He proceeded to ignore my music and play bad and/or obscure guitar rock. He's a nice guy and does a good job with his sound system, but he's a BMX guy, not a kite guy. Not a good fit. I think he scanned my list and saw some things he didn't like or seemed incongruous, like a fat Hawaiian singing Somewhere Over The Rainbow or No Doubt's Just A Girl or Martha and the Vandelas, or Bare Naked Ladies.

Putting the list together I took into account the Kite Party attendees (who I do know), and the public, (who I don't) and came down on the side of the public in terms of entertainment and kite people in terms of fun to fly with and surprise factor. A lot of it is not music I would listen to on a regular basis but fits in the context of the event.





Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: chilese on March 14, 2013, 11:16 AM
Even if we went with Nirvana, you're still looking at songs more than

20 years old. And while I like Cab Calloway (Love Minnie the Moocher)...

let's just say Cab's songs are also more than 20 years old.

Kiting is mostly people over 40 with some disposable income. Without

new blood, everything slowly dies.

The DJ last year may have ignored your list, but he did play from a huge

group of songs. He played the classic rock (Boston, Foreigner, etc) and

he played some more current tracks (Amy Winehouse, Brandon Flowers).

He even played some critically acclaimed groups (Icehouse, Saga).

While his list was not yours Allen, it did contain something for everyone.

This year's DJ stayed more with normal classics (Led Zep, ZZ Top, etc).

So if you were born in the 40s, 50s, or 60s, it was "the good stuff".

There are some more recent groups worth giving a listen

(Arcade Fire, Mumford & Sons, Killers, even Norah Jones soft jazz).

No one is going to like all the music. But aim at the crowd mainstream

and a few youngsters who might find a routine to Muse's Hysteria (my

favorite recent rock song) enchanting.  :)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Allen Carter on March 14, 2013, 11:30 AM
John, my list has Mumford and Son and Amy Winehouse and a bunch of other "recent" stuff, but if you think those two are new music, well I don't know what to say. Popular, sure, and I love 'em, but it's not new music. Even Muse is a retread of groups like Queen. Muse is great, especially live, but they are pretty derivative. One of the things that makes these artists popular is the crossover appeal for old farts like us.

I've joked many times about having my annual Boston and Journey flashback every year at Kite Party. it would be wonderful if that particular cycle was broken.

I thought about the teen appeal a lot last year and concluded that the kind of teens you're thinking of are not going to be interested in what we are doing no matter what music we play. Even if we wanted to target teens, that's what festivals are for. Not Kite Party. Entertaining and educating the crowd should never take priority at this event. It's really a happy coincidence. One that Dave makes money on.  8)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: red sweater on March 14, 2013, 11:30 AM
Kiting is mostly people over 40 with some disposable income. Without

new blood, everything slowly dies.

(I should probably preface my comment: I'm younger (for now) than what you named. And I find sport kiting fun. I think a lot of even younger folks could as well, and getting them interested would benefit the community. So what I say next isn't disagreeing with the general sentiment. But...)

That doesn't at all mean the "new blood" needs to be teenagers and college kids. In fact, it strongly suggests that we should not target them, if they don't have disposable money. Target "over the hill" party recipients, instead.  ;)

"New blood" doesn't mean progressively lowering the age of the demographic. It just means keeping pace with the advance of time. Yes, if the core demographic ages, you're in trouble. But every year there's a new batch of folks aging into the current demographic. Birth rates play a role, too, shifted by a few decades, but even with fewer folks entering the demo, you don't need to shift the demo by a generation.

The community will not "die," slowly or otherwise, if it remains primarily a thing for folks several years out of college.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 14, 2013, 12:34 PM
No one is going to like all the music. But aim at the crowd mainstream

and a few youngsters who might find a routine to Muse's Hysteria (my

favorite recent rock song) enchanting.  :)

"Recent"? That song's age is turning to double digits now that it's already year 2013. ;)


John, my list has Mumford and Son and Amy Winehouse and a bunch of other "recent" stuff, but if you think those two are new music, well I don't know what to say. Popular, sure, and I love 'em, but it's not new music. Even Muse is a retread of groups like Queen. Muse is great, especially live, but they are pretty derivative. One of the things that makes these artists popular is the crossover appeal for old farts like us.

I've joked many times about having my annual Boston and Journey flashback every year at Kite Party. it would be wonderful if that particular cycle was broken.

I thought about the teen appeal a lot last year and concluded that the kind of teens you're thinking of are not going to be interested in what we are doing no matter what music we play. Even if we wanted to target teens, that's what festivals are for. Not Kite Party. Entertaining and educating the crowd should never take priority at this event. It's really a happy coincidence. One that Dave makes money on.  8)

But if you DID want to target the youth, why a kite party has to be just a kite party? You could always try to combine the event with another. That's where I would start.

Example, I love to go to raves, even though I don't generally drink or do drugs or stuff like that, I go just for the dancing and the music, like majority does, as opposed to what older people with the attitude of "it's just horrible loud series of noises, it's not music" assume. Thing at the raves is, there's always all kind of light and dance shows, circus thingies like juggling, poi (no, not boy or boys, just poi), devil sticks, fire shows, and all kind of UV color, glow-in-the-dark and led stuff. Now imagine an outdoor party with a reserved spot for led and UV painted kites dancing on the sky to the music next to the crowd. That's something youth would respond to (if done properly), I guarantee.
And it wouldn't even have to be a rave, just a concert in a park and a good looking kite. But I took raves as an example because there youth actually dance and not just throw their fists in the air while jumping up and down.

Why festivals and raves are so popular? Is it the music? No! The guy who bought the ticket bought it either because his friends are going or there's one or two bands he likes. Most of the time he won't care for the music as much as for the experience itself. So the key to their success is that the organizers have turned a concert into an experience, and that's what makes people come back again and again.


Not to offend anybody but I got to say, if youngsters see only men over 40 or small children flying kites, it's automatically disregarded as "not cool" and therefor no matter what the music or the scene, it's a lost cause with the youth.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 14, 2013, 01:17 PM
Hey folks, not just you John, we love you, at Kite Party both on Saturday and on Sunday before any demos were flown, Dave asked over the PA system if anyone wanted to fly a demo, please bring him your music.  I don't recall any of you doing that. 

If you want to see demos to newer music, perhaps it is your turn to step up to the plate.

Choose music you think would be good for a Rev team demo.   Compose a routine to that music.  Make diagram layouts of the kite movements in that routine with notations where the kites are to move to specific parts of the music.  Contact Rev fliers (there are many of us).  Get six interested.  Send them those diagrams (.pdf) along with the music (.mp3).  Then figure out where and when they can all get together to practice.

The point being, most who watch team demos, unless they have been involved in them, have no idea just what is involved in getting six fliers (who live in different places, have different schedules and varied other interest), together at one location for even one day of practice.

Seriously, give it a try.  There is plenty of room for more teams.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: chilese on March 14, 2013, 02:11 PM
Jim,

I see many groups of Rev fliers flying to the call-outs of one person (you included).

If your spontaneous groups can do formations to no music, then flying to any

song should be straight forward. Granted you won't be maximizing the movements

to the music, but the crowd isn't going to notice the difference. Dave is often telling

the crowds how the fliers have only flown to some song once or never before, so

is he lying or are you telling me you don't lead groups to no music or whatever is

on the PA at the moment?

Mr. Bethell is deaf and no one seems to care that he is flying a general routine to

any song after getting a tap on the shoulder to tell him the music has started.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Ca Ike on March 14, 2013, 03:18 PM
No one is going to like all the music. But aim at the crowd mainstream

and a few youngsters who might find a routine to Muse's Hysteria (my

favorite recent rock song) enchanting.  :)

"Recent"? That song's age is turning to double digits now that it's already year 2013. ;)


John, my list has Mumford and Son and Amy Winehouse and a bunch of other "recent" stuff, but if you think those two are new music, well I don't know what to say. Popular, sure, and I love 'em, but it's not new music. Even Muse is a retread of groups like Queen. Muse is great, especially live, but they are pretty derivative. One of the things that makes these artists popular is the crossover appeal for old farts like us.

I've joked many times about having my annual Boston and Journey flashback every year at Kite Party. it would be wonderful if that particular cycle was broken.

I thought about the teen appeal a lot last year and concluded that the kind of teens you're thinking of are not going to be interested in what we are doing no matter what music we play. Even if we wanted to target teens, that's what festivals are for. Not Kite Party. Entertaining and educating the crowd should never take priority at this event. It's really a happy coincidence. One that Dave makes money on.  8)

But if you DID want to target the youth, why a kite party has to be just a kite party? You could always try to combine the event with another. That's where I would start.

Example, I love to go to raves, even though I don't generally drink or do drugs or stuff like that, I go just for the dancing and the music, like majority does, as opposed to what older people with the attitude of "it's just horrible loud series of noises, it's not music" assume. Thing at the raves is, there's always all kind of light and dance shows, circus thingies like juggling, poi (no, not boy or boys, just poi), devil sticks, fire shows, and all kind of UV color, glow-in-the-dark and led stuff. Now imagine an outdoor party with a reserved spot for led and UV painted kites dancing on the sky to the music next to the crowd. That's something youth would respond to (if done properly), I guarantee.
And it wouldn't even have to be a rave, just a concert in a park and a good looking kite. But I took raves as an example because there youth actually dance and not just throw their fists in the air while jumping up and down.

Why festivals and raves are so popular? Is it the music? No! The guy who bought the ticket bought it either because his friends are going or there's one or two bands he likes. Most of the time he won't care for the music as much as for the experience itself. So the key to their success is that the organizers have turned a concert into an experience, and that's what makes people come back again and again.


Not to offend anybody but I got to say, if youngsters see only men over 40 or small children flying kites, it's automatically disregarded as "not cool" and therefor no matter what the music or the scene, it's a lost cause with the youth.
   To do what you say would be good will make the event so expensive it won't happen.  Next time you go to a rave, forget the music and your personal pleasures and really look around at whats going on.  I can almost guarantee you won't go to another one.  However, Raves in europe are different than here, the mentality is a bit different as is the music.  You mention anything that comes  close to a rave type atmosphere here and it will get shut down before it happens.  YOu mention live bands and HB will see big $$$$$ in permits and other fees.  THe format as it stands is quite popular among fliers as well as spectators and Dave does a great job with it(with our help of course :P ).

The big limiting factor is the cities demands.  Us fliers love to get a new person out and hand them the lines but during the event days we can't do that due to insurance issues, allowed room for the event and other stuff.  Last year I had to turn down a lot of people that wanted to try out a kite and join in the party just because of these limits set and settle for talking to them and sending them to Dave's shop on a non event day.  Sadly most of those people probably never bothered.  THe mass ascention is the only way Dave can get the crowd actually flying but Dave can explain it better. THere are a lot of legalities involved I don't fully understand myself.

Now putting out the word to the schools, local bands and performers inviting them to come out and play might be a great idea to add to the party but only Dave can find out the legalities on that and the cost.  I doubt anyone but the schools would play for free.  I know HB has requested him to put on a more formal festival but the big festivals are a ton of work that goes on for months before hand and can be expensive.  Planning for our small ballon/kite fest here in RIpon in september usually starts in january and will take until august sometimes before everything is set for the 2 day event.





Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 14, 2013, 03:49 PM
To do what you say would be good will make the event so expensive it won't happen.  Next time you go to a rave, forget the music and your personal pleasures and really look around at whats going on.  I can almost guarantee you won't go to another one.  However, Raves in europe are different than here, the mentality is a bit different as is the music.  You mention anything that comes  close to a rave type atmosphere here and it will get shut down before it happens.  YOu mention live bands and HB will see big $$$$$ in permits and other fees.  THe format as it stands is quite popular among fliers as well as spectators and Dave does a great job with it(with our help of course :P ).

The big limiting factor is the cities demands.  Us fliers love to get a new person out and hand them the lines but during the event days we can't do that due to insurance issues, allowed room for the event and other stuff.  Last year I had to turn down a lot of people that wanted to try out a kite and join in the party just because of these limits set and settle for talking to them and sending them to Dave's shop on a non event day.  Sadly most of those people probably never bothered.  THe mass ascention is the only way Dave can get the crowd actually flying but Dave can explain it better. THere are a lot of legalities involved I don't fully understand myself.

Now putting out the word to the schools, local bands and performers inviting them to come out and play might be a great idea to add to the party but only Dave can find out the legalities on that and the cost.  I doubt anyone but the schools would play for free.  I know HB has requested him to put on a more formal festival but the big festivals are a ton of work that goes on for months before hand and can be expensive.  Planning for our small ballon/kite fest here in RIpon in september usually starts in january and will take until august sometimes before everything is set for the 2 day event.

Yeah, raves are different in Europe, that I do know... And it was just an example that I could speak of, from my own (short) life experience.

I wasn't saying a kite club should create a huge event by itself. I wasn't thinking about that big of events at all. I was thinking more along the lines of asking an existing, local and suitable event if you could join in some way, have an area where you could fly your kites. I don't think they would charge you anything, especially if you're not there trying to make a profit financially. Of course, I don't know anything about how things work over there (legally), or even how they work over here (never tried to create an event), but I'm sure that where there's a will, there's a way. :)
And if there's nothing wrong with the current kite parties and you are happy with the results (getting the wanted amount of new people involved, and maintaining the current image of kiting) then don't mind about my opinions/guesses/suggestions. (Then again why was this thread created...)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Ca Ike on March 14, 2013, 04:09 PM
Suggestions are always good.  Just remember the "F" word is taboo when talking about KP :P  I really think its the informal semi structured way its done that appeals to people.  Doesn't have the rush around because you only have 30 min until the next show starts kind of feel that a lot of people don't like about places like Marine world.  You can come out, relax and enjoy the spectacle however you want.


Title: Re: Re: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: madhabitz on March 14, 2013, 04:13 PM
(Then again why was this thread created...)

To stir a little chit I'm guessing.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Gamelord on March 14, 2013, 04:18 PM
Personally ----

I like KP just the way it is.  I think the format is awesome, the Demo's are great and the crowd loves them, they are minimal so we all get plenty of time to fly.  If I had my choice of going to a Festival or Kite Party, I would pick Kite Party every time!!!

I think Dave has the perfect layout and design, if I ever get around to scheduling an event here in Vegas, I would copy Dave's format to the letter.

I thought the music was excellent and had a very good mix to it.  If you don't like the music, bring your own, just don't complain about it and put a bad taste to such a wonderful event.

Actually, if the music is the only thing you can B#$%c about, that really says just how good the event is.

Don't change a thing Dave, I feel the majority of the attendees and spectators enjoyed the event (all that I talked to anyways) and we all know you will never be able to please everyone.

This opinion is mine and mine only and is worth exactly what you paid for it. :)


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 14, 2013, 04:36 PM
I was just referring to the post about how youth is hard to get involved. But it seems majority of you don't even want much younger people included to your parties. Maybe you guys are afraid you wouldn't feel welcome or like it's "your thing" anymore if kites and kite parties became younger adults thing? ;)

We had a small gallery thingie 2007 here in in the Craft Museum of Finland where they had all kinds of kites on the walls and ceilings presented as art. After seeing the pictures, I think the idea was absolutely brilliant. Too bad I missed that one too, never even heard of it until I searched for a local kite club. But it's just another example of how kites can be promoted without a kite party.


Title: Re: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: madhabitz on March 14, 2013, 04:42 PM
To Gamelord: +++10

To Mayfirst: gads.


Title: Re: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: DD on March 14, 2013, 06:21 PM
I get the original intent of the thread; play something different. Yes some of the music that gets played at our festival is "dated". Yeh im sick of hearing it too.
Could they play something "newer", maybe but I dont think that it gets more attention.  It's not a concert.
Want a mix? Pick a pandora channel. I really think that it is possible to fly demos to alot of music. But I dont fly ballet, teams or revs


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 14, 2013, 06:57 PM
I was just referring to the post about how youth is hard to get involved. But it seems majority of you don't even want much younger people included to your parties. Maybe you guys are afraid you wouldn't feel welcome or like it's "your thing" anymore if kites and kite parties became younger adults thing? ;)

We had a small gallery thingie 2007 here in in the Craft Museum of Finland where they had all kinds of kites on the walls and ceilings presented as art. After seeing the pictures, I think the idea was absolutely brilliant. Too bad I missed that one too, never even heard of it until I searched for a local kite club. But it's just another example of how kites can be promoted without a kite party.

I don't think there's much danger of that...  :D
Kiting just doesn't appeal to the younger set for the most part because it's not 'exciting' enough. I liked kites when I was in my teens and twenties, but other more exciting things occupied my time then. Wakeboarding, snowboarding, mountain biking, car racing... etc. When you get older, things like kiting are more inviting because you get to a point when you realize that you need to slow down, and be around for your family.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 14, 2013, 07:42 PM
Jim,

I see many groups of Rev fliers flying to the call-outs of one person (you included).

If your spontaneous groups can do formations to no music, then flying to any

song should be straight forward. Granted you won't be maximizing the movements

to the music, but the crowd isn't going to notice the difference. Dave is often telling

the crowds how the fliers have only flown to some song once or never before, so

is he lying or are you telling me you don't lead groups to no music or whatever is

on the PA at the moment?

Mr. Bethell is deaf and no one seems to care that he is flying a general routine to

any song after getting a tap on the shoulder to tell him the music has started.

John

Sorry for not answering earlier, we were at Huntington.  I don't need to tell you what Lynn and I were doing there.

Yes, I do love to lead groups, especially if it is a group of experienced fliers who have never flown together.  As for flying to music with such a group. yes I do that often.  The problem is that not all of the flying with such groups can be made to "fit" the music, and when in a line, usually only the first kite in line will actually be "on the beat" and and the rest just following.  Much of the time last weekend I was doing just that.  And, getting such a line to burst a ball or do some other group move all together and with the music is not always successful.  Another thing that is fun is to try to get them to change direction in a follow one after the other on successive beats.  You must understand, many of the fliers in those lines have never flown in a group to music, and some may never have flown to music at all. 

For a time, Mike Kory would take the lead.  Now there's a guy who loves to make his kite "dance" across the sky to whatever  music was playing.  He would start doing that, my kite would dance along with Mike's, and the rest would just follow in line as though there was no music playing.

Give it a try sometime.

As far as Dave indicating that a particular line had not flown together before, that was certainly true with the "Lady's Fly" last Sunday. Many had flown together at Kite Party in the past, but not all in that line.

Regarding Ray Bethell, flying three dual line kites at one time does not lend itself to tricks or flying to anything that is not flowing.  I don't think anyone expects Ray to "fly to the beat" with three kites.  Many can't do that with one.

What we did on Sunday with "Too Much Fun" was pretty close to what you are asking.  We had only one day prior to Kite Party when we could all get together in the same place at the same time and practice the routine.  That day was, as you might imagine, "Way Too Much Fun".

Cheers, Jim


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 14, 2013, 07:56 PM

[/quote]

Kiting just doesn't appeal to the younger set for the most part because it's not 'exciting' enough.
[/quote]

Get them flying a fast foil or get them on the handles of a 70 mph Rev Super Sonic and then let's see if that is exciting enough.

We have a good friend who was asked by his doctor what he did for exercise.  When he told the doctor that he flies kites the doctor remarked that that didn't seem like much exercise.  Our friend replied that flying a kite that goes 70 mph is good exercise.  Doctor agreed.  Fast kites can be both exciting and good exercise, especially if it is done in groups of two or more.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 14, 2013, 09:10 PM
Hey Jim, I'm with you. It's exciting enough for me, too. Twenty years ago, I was more interested in things that you could get hurt doing, though.  :o


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Ca Ike on March 14, 2013, 09:42 PM
Hey Jim, I'm with you. It's exciting enough for me, too. Twenty years ago, I was more interested in things that you could get hurt doing, though.  :o
I had a kid tell me that kite flying wasn't exciting cause you can't really get hurt doing it.  Then he saw the challenge of flying around idiots that walk right into your kite path and end up bloody or unconscious. Now kite flying is cool :P


Title: Re: Re: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: madhabitz on March 15, 2013, 12:07 AM
.... idiots that walk right into your kite path and end up bloody or unconscious. Now kite flying is cool :P

Yikes Anthony, when did that happen?


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 15, 2013, 12:29 AM
Hey Jim, I'm with you. It's exciting enough for me, too. Twenty years ago, I was more interested in things that you could get hurt doing, though.  :o

Last year at WSIKF a flier was behind us, but misjudged his distance and brought his Rev down hard hitting Lynn and me.  We had no warning.  I was OK as my big straw hat came down over my face and gave some protection.  Lynn was not so lucky however, as she was brought down backwards, twisting her knee badly.  Several doctor appointments, weeks of therapy, heat, ice and a cortisone shot have made her knee much better. 

And none of us should ever forget our friend Jim Strealy who was flying his kite at Lake Yosemite last June and somehow ended up in the lake and drowned.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 15, 2013, 04:40 AM
Hey Jim, I'm with you. It's exciting enough for me, too. Twenty years ago, I was more interested in things that you could get hurt doing, though.  :o

Last year at WSIKF a flier was behind us, but misjudged his distance and brought his Rev down hard hitting Lynn and me.  We had no warning.  I was OK as my big straw hat came down over my face and gave some protection.  Lynn was not so lucky however, as she was brought down backwards, twisting her knee badly.  Several doctor appointments, weeks of therapy, heat, ice and a cortisone shot have made her knee much better. 

And none of us should ever forget our friend Jim Strealy who was flying his kite at Lake Yosemite last June and somehow ended up in the lake and drowned.
I will never forget Jim. I never met him, other than here online. What I will remember about him is that he died doing something that he loved to do. It sounds like a real unfortunate freak accident, but at least he didn't slip & fall in the bathtub. I use his story to remind myself to get out there & enjoy life because you never know...

My point was that no matter what music you play, you won't attract the 25 year old adrenaline junkies. But they are potential new kiters if they survive until they're 35-40 !



Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: kiteking on March 16, 2013, 08:04 AM

... he told the doctor that he flies kites the doctor remarked that that didn't seem like much exercise. 


Kiting just doesn't appeal to the younger set for the most part because it's not 'exciting' enough....

Well I cant think of a better exciting, exercise routine than flying a stack of hard pulling kites a couple of inches off the ground at 20+ mph

as for the music, coming from 20+ years in retail, I really only hear the music when its not playing in the background

My kids all flew when younger, and it was not their first choice activity in high school/college, but they are all getting back into it more and more, (they keep requesting kites from the collection)

I think kiting appeals to all ages, just in different degrees.... anyone check the smiles on the adults during the mass ascension?? I'll bet there was quite a few who had never flown with their parent/child

and maybe we have changed the way they view kiting

kiting is not just for kids... its for kids at heart


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 16, 2013, 09:06 AM

[/quote]
kiting is not just for kids... its for kids at heart
[/quote]

Funny you should use that phrase.  When we formed our "fours" team with the Pittmans a year and a half ago, Cass named the team "Kids at Heart".


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: mikenchico on March 17, 2013, 12:29 PM
Hey Jim, I'm with you. It's exciting enough for me, too. Twenty years ago, I was more interested in things that you could get hurt doing, though.  :o

Ha ha ... That happened around my mid 30's to early 40's, before that the fun part of two wheeled sports was the crashes, after that they started hurting. I was flying sport kites in my mid 20's too though, no lack of excitement, there was a skill to master, and kites are a babe magnet   :D

As far as music goes I can't say I've ever disliked anything I've heard at an event. Besides it takes a lot of watts to drown out the song in my head.



Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Jim Foster on March 17, 2013, 02:03 PM
Early years I was into fast cars (first car was a 1953 Hudson Hornet), dirt bikes and dune buggies.  Didn't pick up a kite until I was 61 except for the wood and paper ones (usually Hi-Flier for 10 cents or 25 cents for large or box) we flew when we were kids.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 17, 2013, 06:43 PM
Early years I was into fast cars (first car was a 1953 Hudson Hornet), dirt bikes and dune buggies.  Didn't pick up a kite until I was 61 except for the wood and paper ones (usually Hi-Flier for 10 cents or 25 cents for large or box) we flew when we were kids.
That's what I'm talking about ! It took me until my mid-30s to realize that I wouldn't live much longer if I kept trying to do all the extreme sports my crazy brain thought would be fun. Drop a 20+ foot cliff snowboarding ? Drive a sub-2 minute lap at Bridgehamton ? Do a sub-1 hour lap at my local MTB loop ? I get more of a rush learning a new kite trick now, or getting my kids out there learning how to fly.

Jim, a Hudson Hornet ? WOW !



Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 17, 2013, 06:47 PM
Not every 20-something year old is an adrenaline junkie. Not even a majority.


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: RobB on March 17, 2013, 06:52 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't count the button pushing wifi-junkies ! You're right, most of the 20-somethings I know from work can't be peeled away from their computer screens, iPhones & xboxes !   :o


Title: Re: Demo Music From This Century Please (Now Hijacked)
Post by: Mayfirst on March 17, 2013, 07:01 PM
Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't count the button pushing wifi-junkies ! You're right, most of the 20-somethings I know from work can't be peeled away from their computer screens, iPhones & xboxes !   :o

Again, not even a majority. :) Begs a question of where do you work when those are the only types you know.