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Kites! Kites! Kites! => Kite Building and Repair => Topic started by: TBHinPhilly on April 30, 2013, 07:13 AM



Title: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on April 30, 2013, 07:13 AM
From the Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA

Quote
Summer 2013 Kite Making Retreat

The Muse Sport Kite

We're a little late in finalizing our Summer Retreat this year, but the wait was well worth it! World famous kite designer/maker Ken Mcneill will be teaching his awesome Muse Sport kite! Learn to build one of the best flying dual-line kites ever made. Complete kits with pre-cut sails and all rods and fittings will be availabe. You'll even be able to choose your own custom color combination!

Join us the 2nd weekend of August for some kite making fun. This years workshop will be held on August 10-11 2013.


(http://keystonekiters.com/images/retreat-flyer-2013.gif)

For more information.

http://keystonekiters.com/events.html (http://keystonekiters.com/events.html)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: sugarbaker on April 30, 2013, 12:44 PM
sounds excellent.  Wish I could attend just for the opportunity to build a Muse... of course I suppose I could just disassemble the one I have and rebuild it, but not nearly as fun (I'm sure) as being in a workshop led by Ken himself. 


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: Lou on April 30, 2013, 01:33 PM
I think these Kite Builder Retreats need to happen in Florida.  Great weather, windy beaches...  just all perfect place to hold an event like this!  wink wink ;)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: mikenchico on May 04, 2013, 01:42 AM
Nothing like a workshop with Ken, if you can get in on it do it. Plus the Muse is a fine kite you'll be happy to have in your bag. Wish it wasn't so far, I'd love to do it even though it would be a second time and a 3rd Muse (We bought one of Ken's the morning he started taking orders).



Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on May 04, 2013, 12:22 PM
I think these Kite Builder Retreats need to happen in Florida.  Great weather, windy beaches...  just all perfect place to hold an event like this!  wink wink ;)


I'm sure it would be a great place to have a kite building workshop or retreat.  The thing is - there is no governing body that organizes these things (nor should there be).  They are organized by local, hard-working enthusiasts like yourself.  If you want an event in your area, and have the number of potential attendees to make it work, make it happen!  You don't need to think on the scale of Ft. Worden (http://www.kitemakers.org/), just a few friends with similar interests getting together to learn something and maybe make a kite.

Ken McNeill (http://kenmcneill.com/workshops/)


Title: Re: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: madhabitz on May 04, 2013, 12:59 PM
We've got plenty of people in the Ripon group to do something like this.  More if we add in the whole of Northern California.  Hmmm. ...


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on May 04, 2013, 01:04 PM
Nothing like a workshop with Ken, if you can get in on it do it. Plus the Muse is a fine kite you'll be happy to have in your bag. Wish it wasn't so far, I'd love to do it even though it would be a second time and a 3rd Muse (We bought one of Ken's the morning he started taking orders).

Thanks Mike.  That was a good weekend. :)  I know I learned as much from you guys as you possibly could have from me.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: chilese on May 04, 2013, 01:22 PM
Excellent weekend in Chico.

4 dozen pictures of the event start here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432332587371958738

It convinced me I do not have the patience for kitemaking.

Ken is the MAN.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-oZUTkNPfxwA/S2OIjZ4L_rI/AAAAAAAAHmA/V_3o1zfTWNY/s800/2427%2520Mojo%2520Workshop%2520Oct2004.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432335717362302642)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on May 04, 2013, 02:55 PM
Excellent weekend in Chico.

4 dozen pictures of the event start here:

https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5432332587371958738

John, I've saved your "motivational poster" as my desktop wallpaper!  I've told several people in classes over the years about your kite, but mostly about your great attitude about the experience (at least after the fact ;) ).


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: Smeagol on May 04, 2013, 04:03 PM
I'd so be down for something like this if it were semi-local.. hint hint Ken.   ;)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: chilese on May 04, 2013, 04:14 PM
Ken,

The poster was made by Paul Shirey (Aerostar), fellow Mechanical Engineer,
using a photo I took of my skills.

The Mojo UL is always in my "A Bag".
You were right, "It flies just like a Mojo."
I never would have finished the kite if Bambi hadn't given me that chocolate
bar and given me a timeout while she ripped out the trailing edge stitching.

Although it has a few more friendship signatures accumulated over the years.
Here is Bob Matteo holding it from June of 2012:

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-VEowEso1ZTc/T9WC_0FQfOI/AAAAAAABGIY/sQbtTIrdR-o/s800/_DSC2784%2520Matteo%2520Mojo%2520UL.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2012Kites#5752648131859741922)

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-BTzsvq-XbdU/S2nQaRgzqNI/AAAAAAABMT0/6CntGE3lDVk/s800/Chilese%2520Perfection%2520Poster.jpg) (https://picasaweb.google.com/chilesej/2004Kites#5434103575195396306)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on May 04, 2013, 05:01 PM
I'd so be down for something like this if it were semi-local.. hint hint Ken.   ;)
No need to "hint hint" me.  I'm not an organizer, just the hired help. ;)

Besides, there are a ton of exceptional designers/builders in easy driving distance of you.  Find a venue, find a teacher, invite a few friends, and you've got yourself a party!


Title: Re: Re: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: madhabitz on May 04, 2013, 07:11 PM
I'd so be down for something like this if it were semi-local.. hint hint Ken.   ;)
No need to "hint hint" me.  I'm not an organizer, just the hired help. ;)
I think he's hint-hinting me and/or the other Ripon group flyers. It's a *really* good idea.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: Smeagol on May 04, 2013, 07:38 PM
Yeah it is!  Just need to find a venue...


Title: Re: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: cerfvoliste on May 05, 2013, 11:32 PM
How about a westcoast "Muse Workshop Benefit" for Steve. 

I'll bring the Blue Moon beer!
CV

Remember, No Matter Where You Go, There You Are.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: mikenchico on May 06, 2013, 07:23 AM
Try your local school system, many did at one time rent out to small groups, insurance may have killed that these days. I used to work for our local schools as their Civic Center Activities Worker, the job involved opening up a building, meeting the organizers early and setting up the area as needed, tables, chairs etc. then breaking it down and cleaning up after. Club lodges such as the Elks or Moose lodges are often available for small groups. Maybe your local Veterans Hall? But the workshops take two days if you're building kites and having to break down overnight makes things more difficult, best if you can have an area where you can leave everything as is overnight while you take Ken out to dinner or BBQ.



Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on August 08, 2013, 02:24 PM
One more day of work, and then I get to meet Ken and build one of his kites.  Tomorrow won't pass fast enough.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on August 12, 2013, 07:11 AM
What a great workshop.  Ken's see, do, teach approach really works to learn, create a great kite, and reinforce what was learned through sharing with others.  It also really helps keep everyone in the group moving forward.  All 12 participants fully completed their sails - and 10 of us completed the kite 100% (including a first time builder). 

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-ejskLKIGZZ0/UgilmTQW9LI/AAAAAAAAIek/5otX0YllFe8/s912/Ten%2520of%2520Twelve%2520Completed.jpg)

Full photographs here.

https://picasaweb.google.com/102310460480941598807/KeystoneKitersKenMcNeilSMuseWorkshopAugust10112013 (https://picasaweb.google.com/102310460480941598807/KeystoneKitersKenMcNeilSMuseWorkshopAugust10112013)

If you can organize a space, tables, etc. and a number of participants in your area (Ken does the rest but not that part), I highly recommend talking to Ken about a workshop. 


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: nckiter on August 12, 2013, 08:30 AM
Ben, thanks for the pictures for those of us that couldn't make it, looks like some very nice kites came out of the workshop.
How was the 926 tape to sew through? I noticed that several pictures seemed to show applying the tape with a tape gun and what looked like manually operating the take up reel, can you elaborate on that?


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on August 12, 2013, 09:15 AM
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ZxWichQHPGY/UgilSCgUc6I/AAAAAAAAIdo/PZ6gUD-gFYA/s912/No%2520tape%2520Adehsive.jpg)

Interesting stuff.  The tape part is just a transfer backing - it leaves only the adhesive on the fabric and no carrier once applied (hence it's good for curves).  Because the gun is designed for just pulling the adhesive off while pulling the gun along it's tension will pull the very light fabric out of alignment and shape - so Ken's method is indeed to drive it off the gun by manually turning the take up real.  Basically you move the roller on the fabric depositing the adhesive by turning the take up reel which pulls the backing through.  Gotta keep the locking trigger pulled.  And you have to keep it all lined up at the same time.  Took a little practice but not bad once you got the hang of it.  The use of the tacky mat (doorway material for clean room manufacturing -CarrMcMaster) to hold the fabric pieces in place while working on them was fantastic. 

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-It-yE663b_c/UgiieBl5EoI/AAAAAAAAITg/Gi120CPW-oI/s912/IMG_6012.jpg)

The adhesive is repositionable for a short time.  It will also roll up and off the fabric kind of like rubber cement.  But after a day it soaks into the fabric and creates a stronger bond.  I tested a piece late on Sunday and it was indeed uniformly impregnated into both pieces of fabric. 

Sewing it was really no different than traditional tapes.  No cotton thread - bonded nylon or polyester.  Best if you have a silicone thread oiler.  I got a few balls of gum on the needle but nothing major.  Some did have trouble with their machines. 


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: mdilucca on August 12, 2013, 11:44 AM
Thank you Ben for the information about the transfering tape.  I wonder if you can expand about the tacky mat too.

Cheers
Mario


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on August 12, 2013, 12:19 PM
The tacky mat or sticky mat comes from cleanroom manufacturing - it is the pad right inside the door you step on in your booties to pick off any last dust. 

Ken uses it as a work suface to hold pieces of fabric in place while taping them.  The tack is perfect to allow you to lay things out, peel them back partway (sort of roll back the mating part of the 2d piece), place the adhesive on part 1, and then roll the matching piece back over the adhesive.  The seam doesn't move out of alignment. 

The mat leaves no residue whatsoever.  When it is dirty with glue, thread bits, lint, etc.. just peal up a layer and expose the next one.  Ken said he uses them for months on end.  This is much better than my old occasional method of spraying very light glue on my glass.   

(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-rtEkugfbpTc/Ugih4IWlt8I/AAAAAAAAIRk/YaQUVDucIWM/s640/IMG_5997.jpg)

http://www.mcmaster.com/#tacky-mats/=o17d8o (http://www.mcmaster.com/#tacky-mats/=o17d8o)

Another thing I learned was Ken's tip for pinching the leading edge dacron, creating a fold, and then using a metal electrical outlet cover to hot cut the ingoing curve on the opening for the fitting without heat sealing/welding the whole thing closed.  This picture shows cutting the back line (which can be welded) but think about flipping the cover over and using the curve - the slight space  provided by the edge of the cover keeps it from holding the fabric flat and thus avoids the weld where you need the LE to remain open to take the spar.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-G8zNFX-QMjQ/UgiksrMpCgI/AAAAAAAAIbg/wMWwE94YpJk/s912/IMG_6084.jpg)

(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-Guv-r4sNLCY/Ugihm0_9TOI/AAAAAAAAIQs/Hb37tcyx5Lo/s912/IMG_5989.jpg)

And to Ken's horror I discussed venting of sport kites with Steve Tapp.  Ken said that every so often Steve would send him pictures of his kites and they would bring tears to his eyes.   This is Steve's BMK Exile which he got from Ken and then took a knife and sewing machine to for his own venting.   Look closely and you can see where he filed in patches for the first attempt that he decided did not perform so well - so he redid it.  Bold stuff with a BMK. 

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-akZeqU1Uqi4/Ugik2JSvVSI/AAAAAAAAIcE/Ur2MOWMxmwI/s640/IMG_6088.jpg)

Full vent.  No tricking with this - but it will fly in 30+ mph.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Pjrz24Zqaag/Ugif-B7RjHI/AAAAAAAAIKU/d6rbOX-Jx3M/s640/Full%2520vent%2520BMK%2520Exile.jpg (https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-Pjrz24Zqaag/Ugif-B7RjHI/AAAAAAAAIKU/d6rbOX-Jx3M/s640/Full%2520vent%2520BMK%2520Exile.jpg)

This is the variable vent cover - it will close up the vent in variable 1/4 increments by rolling it closed and holding there with the velcro strips.  Steve said it adds 1.5 oz to the kite, but greatly expands the wind range.

(https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-7jb4J4GaF38/Ugif8z2IHhI/AAAAAAAAIKM/xrhDbMo9K0U/s640/Full%2520vent%2520BMK%2520Exile%2520with%2520closure%2520panels.jpg)

Here's what a vent for a muse might look like.  Ken was justifiably horrified - but maybe a little less so than my taking a knife and sewing machine to something he made.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-zRxOdmW_mB4/Ugif5EiuFvI/AAAAAAAAIKE/42ad3K0zNMY/s912/Frankenstein%2520Vented%2520Muse%2520plan.jpg)


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on August 12, 2013, 01:04 PM
Ben, thanks for the pictures for those of us that couldn't make it, looks like some very nice kites came out of the workshop.
How was the 926 tape to sew through?...

Actually, the tape we used for the class was the 3M 924 ATG.  Wrong box.  The 926 is much more aggressive and too hard to work with for our use in class.

Ben, thanks for the great pictures and the nice write-up.  It was a pleasure having you in the group.  Thanks for all the time you spent helping the others!

Ken


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: nckiter on August 12, 2013, 01:19 PM
Ken,
Do you have experience with the 9460 as compared to the 926 and 924?


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: TBHinPhilly on August 12, 2013, 01:28 PM
Actually, the tape we used for the class was the 3M 924 ATG.  Wrong box.  The 926 is much more aggressive and too hard to work with for our use in class.

Thanks for the correction.  And thanks again for the class.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on August 12, 2013, 01:38 PM
Ken,
Do you have experience with the 9460 as compared to the 926 and 924?



Almost no experience with the 9460 VHB.  I bought one roll of it before I became convinced that the convenience of the ATG gun/tape system was the way to go for me.  I suggest the 924 for 99% of sew-through use.  I only recently started playing with the 926 (again), and only for some high-stress, high-load stuff I'm working on. 

The 9460 comes into its own for no-sew applications, but that's not something that really appeals to me at this time.  Dick Maciel has used the 9460 quite a bit and has a site devoted to no-sew techniques - http://nosewmac.com/ (http://nosewmac.com/)  I've only visited briefly, but it looks like there's good info to be had.


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: nckiter on August 12, 2013, 01:47 PM
Thanks for the reply :)

I'm familiar with the 714 gun and 924 tape and also the 9460 tape, I wish the 9460 was available reverse wound so it would work with the gun.

Given that the 926 lays down 5 mil of adhesive vs the 2 mil of the 924 and 9460, is there any appreciable difference in sewing through it?


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: kmac on August 12, 2013, 02:19 PM
...I wish the 9460 was available reverse wound so it would work with the gun.

There is a style of applicator gun that will work with the regular-wind tapes.  Dick Maciel has one that I sold him a few years ago.  Looks like this - http://www.mercotape.com/html/dsh-25.html (http://www.mercotape.com/html/dsh-25.html)

Quote
Given that the 926 lays down 5 mil of adhesive vs the 2 mil of the 924 and 9460, is there any appreciable difference in sewing through it?

In my limited re-visit, not a big difference in sew-ability.  My machine "sounds" different, but no noticeable difference in goo-ing, etc.  YMMV, and my setup and machine/thread combo are probably different that yours.



Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: NWFlyer on August 12, 2013, 08:58 PM
Man, am I jealous of all you guys with the newly made kites.  Looks like a lot of great techniques and hands on instruction.  Hope to do one of Ken's workshops myself some day - out west.  HINT HINT.

Anyway, really looks like some nice kites were made and a success for all.

Nice work everyone - !!!!!!!! :)
NW Flyer and aspiring kite builder


Title: Re: Ken Mcneill - Muse Workshop - Keystone Kiters - Harrisburg PA
Post by: glk47 on August 18, 2013, 05:42 AM
Try your local school system, many did at one time rent out to small groups, insurance may have killed that these days. I used to work for our local schools as their Civic Center Activities Worker, the job involved opening up a building, meeting the organizers early and setting up the area as needed, tables, chairs etc. then breaking it down and cleaning up after. Club lodges such as the Elks or Moose lodges are often available for small groups. Maybe your local Veterans Hall? But the workshops take two days if you're building kites and having to break down overnight makes things more difficult, best if you can have an area where you can leave everything as is overnight while you take Ken out to dinner or BBQ.



The Keystone Kiters event was held in the Camp Hill PA municipal borough hall, a fair size space with a lot of tables and chairs available, with the bonus of a kitchen. There are also floor outlets scattered around, meaning tripping over extension cords.

Larry