GWTW Forum

Kites! Kites! Kites! => Sport Kites => Topic started by: obijuankenobe on June 09, 2009, 01:16 PM



Title: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: obijuankenobe on June 09, 2009, 01:16 PM
I am starting this thread in reaction to the 'claims' made regarding the 'super' SUL Fearless in another thread. 

I would love to read some real information about these SUL/sSUL kites, rather than 'it flies in the lightest of winds' or other relatively meaningless statements.  Not very many of us have flown together, so what this means to each of us is likely very different.  And I have heard this statement so many times  ::).

With regard to the sSUL Fearless:  Any frame info?  Any material differences (other than lack of seams)?  Any real design changes (stand off length/position, sail depth/size/shape)?  I have yet to find a full sized kite that flies lower than the Cosmic Ghost, and even this kite still requires work until there is a detectable wind direction.  But there are plenty of kites that fly in 'the lightest of winds'.  My Sea Devil light (3PT/5PT) flies right down to < 2 mph as will my standard XTs, but they need SOME wind for sure.  I have seen Mayet cynique his standard XTs in < 2mph in Dieppe.  Quite alot is pilot dependent when it comes to low wind.

I'd like to suggest for the sake of this discussion that below 2mph is probably real SUL range.  The Ghost will have full pressure in this range without effort and fly in near zero wind if you are willing to move a bit.  The same can be said for the SD SUL in my hands, but tricking wasn't as pretty.  I also have a homemade Essence SUL that will hold it's own with the Ghost, just different tricks are there. 

All too often, folks bragging about SULs don't seem to realize that if you can determine the direction from which the wind is blowing, there is plenty of wind to fly, and loads of kites will fly.  If there is nothing else flying, then these pilots don't have an SUL.  It has little to do with the miracle of your particular kite. 

As far as real honest to goodness zero wind flying, if you are walking (or running) to keep the kite up in zero wind, then it's no better than a Ghost, SD sUL, or *insert latest name* SUL, all of which fly in zero wind if you are willing to move.  And if you say you're not at least walking in zero wind with a Fearless super duper SUL, then you are lying to yourself and us.   >:(

The exceptions to this are few, and are not strictly full sized trick kites.  The Synchro is amazing; the KiteHouse Sissy is not full sized. 

Comments, SUL kite recommendations, or contrary opinions invited.   8)

obi


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ko on June 09, 2009, 01:59 PM
i will be watching this discusion i am close to buying an inner space but i would like to hear what has to be said here. i own both a QPsul and a zephyr both for me are work in anything under 3 or 4 that is the lower fun range for my exile standard thanx for the post KO ps yeh ive takin the upper spreaders out yes i have moved the bridles up, all this does is make the kite fly since this is a family forum i will use the word poorly


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ko on June 09, 2009, 02:08 PM
where did u go allen???


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: thief on June 09, 2009, 02:43 PM
a Kites Unlimited Isis will fly easily at 2mph and starts below that....full size ~8' or so....g force skinny...
2 piece of icky sail.....
i love mine for those days.....have flown it indoors and did not like how big it was....

(http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tbYkV1FmtY4/RtTJ8Q8DiMI/AAAAAAAACi4/ot8iOCqn6fI/isis%20big%20shot.jpg)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: chilese on June 09, 2009, 02:49 PM
Once you get past a 2PT frame, you are in the SSUL range. And those kites (Breeze rods for example), the frame bends when you simply pull on the  lines.

The Inner Space is an SUL to me. So is the Vapor and the Synchro. And almost the Shadow.

Some of Betancourt's kites were in the SSUL range. Allen Carter could be more specific on the subject.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: JimB on June 09, 2009, 02:49 PM
Any discussion of super low wind flying has to take into account those kites of Yesteryear that truly had exceptional low wind capabilities. The current kites just do not have the same efficiency.

The current design paradigm requires kites to do a lot more in terms of rolling up, etc., that is in direct conflict with light wind flying of the sort where you just stand there and talk to your buddies, not that the older kites have no trick capabilities.

They just do not have it when it comes to some of the more esoteric moves.

Now, somebody cue up that Thor's Hammer vid..

I feel better now, don't you?

Carry On.

 ;)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: st3307 on June 09, 2009, 02:49 PM
Pro Dancer  SUL   been  around  for  years  will fly  in .5  with very lil movement  but   is  not a  very trick orianented  kite    is a  2 panel  kite  and  a  full  size wing


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: rxburner on June 09, 2009, 03:07 PM
Sherrell's S-SUL Fearless.
super skinny uppers, lowers, and spreaders.

(http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7682/fearlessssuldebut.th.jpg) (http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7682/fearlessssuldebut.jpg)
Rx

Quote from KS Forum
"I am so used to the SUL & the L that I would have to say the S does not excel at any of the tricks. It just does them when the other models can't even stay in the air without running around. Inputs are different due to the lack of mass & line management is much more important. The cynique is the only trick that it can do that gives me pause.The sudden stopping & reversing directiobin without hesitation really torques the frame. Flick Flacks, slots, backspins, comets, cascades, flying while rolled up, snap lazy, inverse---no problem."


Obi
I have both the Cosmic TC Ghost and the SUL Fearless. The Fearless flies in lower wind than the Ghost. I flew the S-SUL Fearless indoors breifly, but have not tried it outdoors.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ezme6 on June 09, 2009, 03:16 PM
are we talking about "it feels like about 1 or 2mph" or "it says on the wind meter between 1 and 2mph" or less? :)



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: sbrown on June 09, 2009, 03:22 PM
Quote
Sherrell's S-SUL Fearless.
super skinny uppers, lowers, and spreaders.

Although it might seem the opposite, Skinny SUL spars (11 grams)  are heavier than the Skinny UL spars (7.5 grams). Avia spec page (http://www.aviasport.net/catalog/carbon/index.htm)
The Skinny SUL are closer to Sky Shark 3PTs.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: chilese on June 09, 2009, 03:23 PM
Always a pleasure skb™ when you add a valid reference point.
________________________________

1 mph is just under 1.5 ft/sec.

I particularly like it when people describe the wind at 1/2 mph. They better be holding up a cigarette and watching the smoke to see that subtle a breeze.  >:(


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: sbrown on June 09, 2009, 03:26 PM
I drop a goose down feather from shoulder height.
If it hits my shoe, it's 0 wind.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: st3307 on June 09, 2009, 03:26 PM
    that  is  how  I do  it  John   cig   smoke  and  the   direction  it  drifts 8)  because  you  are  very  right    you can not feel it  on   your  neck  or face  that  light


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: thief on June 09, 2009, 03:59 PM
Quote
Sherrell's S-SUL Fearless.
super skinny uppers, lowers, and spreaders.

Although it might seem the opposite, Skinny SUL spars (11 grams)  are heavier than the Skinny UL spars (7.5 grams). Avia spec page ([url]http://www.aviasport.net/catalog/carbon/index.htm[/url])
The Skinny SUL are closer to Sky Shark 3PTs.


yep the SUL sticks are "Super" "Ultra Lights".....a tiny bit beefier.....and thus a bit heavier too.........too bad Kurt called them SUL sticks....sort of confounding.....
r


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Geoffrey Platt on June 09, 2009, 04:11 PM
I'd have to say the the Pro Wren is within the "SSUL" area as well. It's as light as a feather and has no problem flying in the lightest of winds. Actually anything over 2 mph and it'll fall apart :)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Allen Carter on June 09, 2009, 05:06 PM

Now, somebody cue up that Thor's Hammer vid..

I feel better now, don't you?

Carry On.

 ;)


http://www.skyburner.com/levelone/Video/videoGallery.html (http://www.skyburner.com/levelone/Video/videoGallery.html)

It's all in the calf muscles...


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Geoffrey Platt on June 09, 2009, 05:17 PM
 :D CRAZY!!!!


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: JimB on June 09, 2009, 05:36 PM
I knew I could count on 'Ya..

 ;D


Now, somebody cue up that Thor's Hammer vid..

I feel better now, don't you?

Carry On.

 ;)


[url]http://www.skyburner.com/levelone/Video/videoGallery.html[/url] ([url]http://www.skyburner.com/levelone/Video/videoGallery.html[/url])

It's all in the calf muscles...


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: anOldMan on June 09, 2009, 09:58 PM
What is the reason for the existence of a SSUL. Is it for performing tricks with 0 wind? Is it to fly both indoors and out-doors? Or is it to hang on your living room wall?

The requirements and flying techniques of a 0 wind kite and a stunt kite are different. My only experience with a 0 wind kite is the Inner Space. The kite is a true floater. I did not think it could do Old School tricks until I saw the Pierro Serra video on the Benson web site.

0 wind kites are designed to fly indoors with no wind. Some like the Inner Space can fly in winds up to 5 maybe 6 mph. But you are out of their design environment. I tried to fly a QPro SUL indoors and it was like pulling a truck around the hall. The kite was not design to float on the wind but to react to the wind.

So to my original question, WHY a SSUL?  ??? ??? ???


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 09, 2009, 10:20 PM
I don't own a wind gauge, but I can fly the Fearless SUL in wind where I can do 360s and jacobs ladders as I slowly walk backwards.  In this sort of wind, its difficult to tell the direction.  The kite has a nice ability to rise when doing JLs or multi-lazys if you just pop it a bit for the rotation which helps keep it aloft as well.

Of course, I much prefer it when the wind is to the point where I can just stand there and fly,  but in a pinch and if its not too hot and I'm feeling rested, you can fly it in darn near nothing at all.

It's no indoor kite, but its also got enough mass to be very tricky.  I like it best in 2-4 and much prefer it to other SULs that I've had.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 09, 2009, 10:31 PM
What is the reason for the existence of a SSUL. Is it for performing tricks with 0 wind? Is it to fly both indoors and out-doors? Or is it to hang on your living room wall?


I've flown with Sherril while he was flying his Fearless SSUL - I was on my Shadow at the time (which goes pretty darn low).  He was able to get one pop rollups out of it with just a small pop and a step forward - it would go right around (told me that there is a small weight in the nose).  He was also doing other tricks more easily than the rest of us.

I would guess that the Fearless SSUL its designed to fly outdoors in lowest possible winds while still modern-trick capable.  I don't think its an indoor kite and can't see folks doing up and overs with it (but I could be wrong).




Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: jaybett on June 10, 2009, 02:25 AM
The Fearless SSUL or S for short, was the brain child of Sherrell, aka Big Wheels who wanted a Fearless that could fly in less wind then the Fearless SUL.

Modern SUL kites, that I've flown, tend to have more mass, then kites of the past such as the Vapor or the Pro Dancer SUL. After Team Cutting Edge got their Quantum Pro SUL's, somebody asked Jerry Cannon, his thoughts. Jerry said that the QPro SUL needed, a strong 2mph to be able to fly. When the winds were lighter, the team flew Vapors.

I think most modern SUL's need a strong 2mph to fly. The SSUL of today, is probably the equivalent of yesterdays SUL.

One of the Aussie's described the Pro Dancer SUL, as their "In case of emergency", kite. That is what the Fearless S, is for me. Being an inland, flier, were light and variable winds happen too often, the S allows me to fly and practice tricks.   

Jay


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: CTaylor on June 10, 2009, 06:40 AM
I think the real differences between an indoor SUL and an outdoor SUL is whether you're using your arms to keep the kite up or your legs and arms.  I fly indoors a few times a year and used to fly a lot indoors when I was still in school.  Once you get comfortable with a true indoor kite you can keep it off the ground with just arm movements.  Now, something to consider is your lines are typically 15 feet or less but you aren't running/moving around so much that you get exhausted.  There is only one kite I've flown indoors and outdoors in my kitebag that will actually perform some of the newer styled tricks.  That is the Itrix.  It does take some learning to find the proper inputs but you aren't running like a crazy person to keep it up unless you're in a fade or performing a comete where you need a little more sail pressure. 

Line lengths make a huge difference to how much you have to work to keep a kite off the ground.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: kevspilly on June 11, 2009, 01:29 PM
Everything needs a bit of wind.

I've got a Benson IS, Double Zero, QP Pro SUL & Sea Devil SUL.

Benson IS will fly with a very slow backwards walk, everything thing else I've got does needs a bit of puff!



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: asburyparkjohn on June 12, 2009, 11:02 AM
I am a big fan of SULs. I am usually on the beach early in the morning practicing on the weekends before the crowds come in around 10:30 AM between June-August- early being 6:30 AM in Asbury Park, NJ. This give me cool weather, no people, a couple of dog walkers and LOW WIND. The Benson IS in that first hour normally is a LIFE SAVER. I would probably go to the beach at 8AM if there was no thing as a Benson IS. Although I am not a Master Flyer as I still have some major tricks to master it does give a good number of low end TP tricks namely the FADE and double axel. The kite LOCKS INTO the Fade so well that lately I have with ONE HAND just held the FADE with this kite at times for about a minute straight with a PURE east wind off the Atlantic. Its an ego thing for me- what can I say ...  :P ... from this kite then the best performers with increasing wind in my opinion is as follows: SD-SUL, Ghost, QPRO-SUL, Exile-UL or SD-UL.  ;) ;) ;)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: RonG on June 12, 2009, 11:46 AM
The current kites just do not have the same efficiency.
Thank God.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 12, 2009, 12:30 PM
the best performers with increasing wind in my opinion is as follows: SD-SUL, Ghost, QPRO-SUL, Exile-UL or SD-UL.  ;) ;) ;)

John,

You should check the settings on your Exile UL.  My EUL would fly in less than half the wind that my (and others) QPros required.



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: chilese on June 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
RonG,

Perhaps the concept of a kite flying is gone from your memory. But if you search way back, back to Shivas, back to STX 2.3s..... there once was a time when kites that flew were considered desirable.  ???

If we all flew as well as you did, a kite's ability to fly would become less important.  ;)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: RonG on June 12, 2009, 05:39 PM
RonG,

Perhaps the concept of a kite flying is gone from your memory. But if you search way back, back to Shivas, back to STX 2.3s..... there once was a time when kites that flew were considered desirable.  ???

If we all flew as well as you did, a kite's ability to fly would become less important.  ;)

I have nothing against them flying, but IMO a certain lack of efficiency is a good thing  :)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Winged V on June 12, 2009, 06:32 PM
Except when your not flying in perfect winds. A smooth Flying kite paints a way nicer picture and makes better use of all the canvas.

Rick

 


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: RonG on June 12, 2009, 08:54 PM
Except when your not flying in perfect winds. A smooth Flying kite paints a way nicer picture and makes better use of all the canvas.
I don't agree.  In fact, in my experience it's exactly the opposite.  You take a super-efficient, "smooth flier", and drive it through the middle of the window in crappy wind (bumpy, holes, turbulent), and watch it get buffeted all over the place.  The less-efficient (and in this context, usually louder) kites we're talking about tend to handle those conditions much better.

FWIW, I've spent a lot less time flying in "perfect" winds than flying in crap.  Mostly competing in crap wind, actually.  I'll take a deep-sailed, loud, "inefficient" kite in those conditions any day of the week.

YMMV of course.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: robot on June 13, 2009, 04:51 AM
For me, the efficiency vs. inefficiency issue is dependent on what kind of crappy winds we are talking about.

If there is some wind such that there is turbulence, bumpiness, etc., then what Ron says about an inefficient kite is spot on. Detensioning leach lines, loosening the sail tensioner, etc. can be useful ways to even out the flight of the kite. Of course, there are kites out there which have a certain flexible ineffiency built in, which is all the better.

But if we are talking about the wafting to non-existent kind of crappy wind (which is what I'm usually trying to fly in), then I'm  going for an efficient SUL. In those condition, there isn't any bumpiness or turbulence, because there isn't enough wind to create bumpiness or turbulence. Usually the battle is simply to get enough air in the sail to keep the kite aloft, and if that's the case, I'm digging out kites like the Desire UL, Shiva UL, Breeze, etc.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Winged V on June 13, 2009, 06:34 AM
Inefficient kites look funny with their butts hangin low and beggin for more air.

Rick


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: DWayne on June 13, 2009, 06:56 AM
Stable, efficient dual line kites are as boring as SLK's.


jmo
Denny


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: chilese on June 13, 2009, 07:29 AM
You either haven't flown the 61/49 and/or fighters

or

you meant the deltas and other stable SLKs and overlooked a group of SLKs which are both efficient and unstable under specific, pilot induced, conditions.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: RonG on June 13, 2009, 07:53 AM
But if we are talking about the wafting to non-existent kind of crappy wind (which is what I'm usually trying to fly in), then I'm  going for an efficient SUL. In those condition, there isn't any bumpiness or turbulence, because there isn't enough wind to create bumpiness or turbulence. Usually the battle is simply to get enough air in the sail to keep the kite aloft, and if that's the case, I'm digging out kites like the Desire UL, Shiva UL, Breeze, etc.

Fair point.  My UL does have a leach line that keeps the sail quiet, and standoff spacing that reduces the keel area and hence the drag, both of which make the sail more efficient.  But I'd still argue that trying to make a sail ultra-efficient is not going to make for a very exciting ride, even in light winds.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: DWayne on June 13, 2009, 09:06 AM
You either haven't flown the 61/49 and/or fighters

or

you meant the deltas and other stable SLKs and overlooked a group of SLKs which are both efficient and unstable under specific, pilot induced, conditions.

I've never flown a 61/49. But they look kind of interesting.


Denny


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: robot on June 13, 2009, 03:48 PM
To return to the point that started this thread:

I am starting this thread in reaction to the 'claims' made regarding the 'super' SUL Fearless in another thread. 

I would love to read some real information about these SUL/sSUL kites, rather than 'it flies in the lightest of winds' or other relatively meaningless statements.  Not very many of us have flown together, so what this means to each of us is likely very different.  And I have heard this statement so many times  ::).


obi

In the old GWTW forum a few years back there was a discussion about this issue, and at that time I threw out the idea of devising an objective test to determine the lower end of a kite's wind range: The basic needs would be (1) a gym, warehouse or other large indoor space and (2) a sled or vehicle whose speed was controllable and measurable.  If you attached a sequence of kites to fixed anchor points on the sled, you would have a way of making some interesting comparisons between kites relative to each other.  If kite A is able to remain aloft when the sled is moving at 1 mph whereas kite B needs the sled to move at 3.5 mph to stay aloft, that would say something substantive (moreso IMO than manufacturer claims or anecdotal evidence).

I even went so far as to mention this to some middle school science teachers at my school--the teachers were enthusiastic, though no students took them up on the project for their science olympiad. Maybe I'll raise this project again to them when school reconvenes in the fall.

BTW I have no copyright on this idea: if someone else out there wants to mention it to some enterprising students looking for a science fair project or wants to take it on themselves, I for one would be interested in the results.

Robbie (rboerth in the old GWTW forum)



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 13, 2009, 11:08 PM
It would be interesting, but just staying aloft is only part of the picture. 

It you also want it to trick, then its a different test.  I have several kites that fly in almost nothing at all, but you can't flick-flack, rollup, or multi-lazy them.  So, many of us want the best trickster (all modern tricks) with the least amount of compromise (low wind performance).


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: obijuankenobe on June 14, 2009, 01:31 AM
Thanks for bringing us back around, Robot.  :)

And TPatter, you hit the nail on the head.  The Ghost gives me 'no pump/no walk' flying at the lowest wind range, given the kites I have owned.  The closest competitor was the SD SUL, but I let that kite go because it really didn't go much lower than the 3PT light I have still. 

I am also right there with you...we're not talking about flying, I am asking about trick flying. 

I noticed that the Fearless S of Sherrel is NOT a tattoo, which sorta blows this part of the theory out of the water.  Clearly the tattoo SUL is NOT the kite that saved the world.  One rumor squashed.  Although I think most serious pilots knew that a few seams were not going to make the critical difference there. 

obi 


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Winged V on June 14, 2009, 06:42 AM
When I get to the field and there is little to no wind I pull out the SULs and still Trick,granted no rollups, and multi lazies and such but axles, fades,slides,no help pinwheels,360s,540s,900s,pinned in the air stalls,snap stalls etc.

If you have never flown a full sized 7 or 8' 3.4, 3.7 ounce true SUL kite and learned to perfect the tricks these kites are capable of I would say your missing out on a really cool facet of kite flying!

We are not only flying circles here folks!

ps winds are sweet and I am headed to the field to fly my Akuji Comp and Widow Maker today.
Rick

Rick






Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: robot on June 14, 2009, 06:48 AM
Discussions of "how low can you go?" with sport kites always seem to gravitate around two points of tension/contradiction:

(1) On the one hand, we seem to want some type of "real information" (as obi puts it) about low wind capabilities of kites, but then this desire for "real information" crashes against the unquantifiable subjective evaluations of a kite's trick worthiness at low winds. We could, I think, come up with a test that would give us some "real information" about whether Kite A or Kite B can fly in lower wind, but when you add the question "But can it do the tricks I want it to?", you have moved into a realm that is at odds with the desire for some type of actual objective information.

(2) The second tension is one having to do with design: To keep a kite aloft requires that you keep some air pressure (through wind and/or pilot movement) in the sail, whereas most tricks require the trick to stall (i.e. removing air pressure from sail). So, from a design perspective, a designer of a SUL kite is really faced with a very complex problem. In terms of my own kite bag, I've generally found that it is the kites that have a more limited repertoire of flat spin tricks which tend to fare better in low wind conditions than some of the more radical and "rotationally friendly" trick kites. That said, I'd love to try out the Ghost, and Will Sturdy has been designing some low-wind kites which are admirable both from their trickability and their low wind capabilities.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: lasapcheong on June 14, 2009, 07:05 AM

Actually one way I try to do to assess the flyability + trickability of an SUL in very low wind conditions is what I like to call the "3 pump" approach. Middle of window, pump the kite once and walk back to maintain forward drive and pressure, repeat 2 more times. 2 pumps would be better though...

If I can reach the top of the window without too much effort in this way theoretically I should be able to regain the same amount of ground by flying down when walking forward. As long as you are willing to move a little you should be able to fly almost the potential full window and squeeze in some tricks for a modern day pitchy SUL. JL's in these kind of wind need back pedalling though.

Another interesting thing I seemed to observe is that backspins can be a ground gainer. In light wind, continuous backspins will for some reason still allow you to gain a bit of ground. If the kite doesn't fall in elevation too much when backspinning and backspin cascades are a doodle, you can potentially gain a lot of ground without twisting your lines this way.

Cometes, insanes etc on the other hand are definite "ground losers" in light wind, back peddling furiously would be needed.

-Darryl


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 14, 2009, 10:05 AM
Clearly the tattoo SUL is NOT the kite that saved the world.  One rumor squashed.  Although I think most serious pilots knew that a few seams were not going to make the critical difference there. 

Not sure about that!  :)  The Fearless SUL is (for me) by far the best low wind trickster that I've ever flown. 

It would be interesting to see how it flys compared to the ghost, but I can't imagine it getting any better, maybe just different.  I can tell from the vids I've seen that they both like a deep turtle, multi-lazys, risers, and rollups.

The FL SUL can (very easily) do both backspins and multi-lazys in zero wind and maintain and gain altitude.  So, in the worse case wind conditions, you've always got that. 

I used to fly indoor kites outside when it got that low, but I no longer bother - the FL SUL is just much more fun in that same wind.

Of course, try before you buy, but when you do, I'm sure that you will!  :)



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Kantaxel on June 14, 2009, 11:19 AM

Modern SUL kites, that I've flown, tend to have more mass, then kites of the past such as the Vapor or the Pro Dancer SUL. After Team Cutting Edge got their Quantum Pro SUL's, somebody asked Jerry Cannon, his thoughts. Jerry said that the QPro SUL needed, a strong 2mph to be able to fly. When the winds were lighter, the team flew Vapors.

Jay

Jay,
TCE never flew the Vapors in competition..............they flew a couple demos and then decided to never do it again, as they were not 'Team' kites. The Pro Suls are
not super tricky (easily) and they get their forward drive by setting the tow points very high, negating the pitchy tricks completely.

Jim


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: obijuankenobe on June 14, 2009, 02:56 PM
It would be interesting to see how it flys compared to the ghost, but I can't imagine it getting any better, maybe just different.

I think we are starting to agree on something.   ;)

obi


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: mikenchico on June 14, 2009, 11:52 PM

If you have never flown a full sized 7 or 8' 3.4, 3.7 ounce true SUL kite and learned to perfect the tricks these kites are capable of I would say your missing out on a really cool facet of kite flying!

Rick

Rick, what full size 7'-8' wing kites do you have that run 3.5 oz's ? When the PDSUL goes 5 oz that's an accomplishment.  Couldn't find the Vapors weight.



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Allen Carter on June 15, 2009, 12:00 AM
Vapor's about 5.5oz

There was a Vanishing Point made with Zero Gold 5.5 gram spars and .4 oz nylon that was 4oz or a bit less, but that's a rare and fragile bird.

With .5 oz Icarex and 7.5 gram Skinny sticks (the lightest commonly available materials) I don't think you can get a "full size" kite down to 5oz these days. My PDSUL was a bit over 5. As a lot of current makers use Skysharks in the 8-9 gram range and robust fittings, kites just aren't super light. Much stronger and more capable though.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: jaybett on June 15, 2009, 02:53 AM
To answer the original question, I'd have to go with imagination.

I am probably probably guilty of over estimating, how low the winds are on the field. I don't own a wind meter. I need the leaves on the tree to be moving to be able to fly comfortably. The wind is going between 2 and 3mph.

When the winds are at their lightest, and the Fearless SUL, is too much work, then the I'll go to the Fearless S. I probably gain a mile or so in wind range. Is it worth it? To me it is, because a lot of the Fearless abilities are available in the S, so I can continue to practice tricks.

Does the S, go lower then other kites? No, I feel that the Exile UL or Mantis UL will fly comfortably in the same winds as the Fearless S.

Jay


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Winged V on June 15, 2009, 11:33 AM
PBSK Vanishing Point hybrid....2p ule,g force skinny ul lle w/o ferrels.g force skinny ul spreaders and all the tweaks Peter uses to keep weight off his kites.

Ed Shenks Concept VLD...very low drag..8' wing span..

g force skinny ul,breeze rods.Drilled spreader connectors to shave weight etc.Awesome pull in all but no wind.Was flown indoors this past winter by a Wings over Washington member,he was sucking wind afterwards but flew it sweet.

Rick


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: John Welden on June 16, 2009, 06:23 PM
You really must factor in the air density when talking about the wind range of a kite. 

More importantly you need to define what "flying" is.  Your kite will fly in 2mph of wind? I can fly a vented kite indoors if I work hard enough at it.  Does flying in 2mph mean you stand in one spot and sweep your arms back and fly?  If not than how much am I allowed to walk backwards before my kite isn't really flying anymore?  Everyone has a different idea of what flying is.

 


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: DWayne on June 16, 2009, 07:18 PM

More importantly you need to define what "flying" is.   
Everyone has a different idea of what flying is.

 

Ain't that the truth.


Denny


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: anOldMan on June 16, 2009, 09:44 PM

More importantly you need to define what "flying" is.   
Everyone has a different idea of what flying is.

 

Ain't that the truth.


Denny

I would define flying, excluding indoor kiting, as the wind speed at which the kite will move in vertical direction with no assistance from the pilot. This gives the pilot room for increasing presure on the kite to perform tricks with out alway needing to work just to keep the kite in the air.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: tpatter on June 16, 2009, 10:03 PM
I think Obi would define flying as including tricks like slot machines, jacobs ladders, cascades, and multi-lazys. 

Sweating to maintain sail pressure is ok, but you should be able to maintain the ability to fly for a few hours with no ill side-affects or prior medical screen to ensure cardiac health!  :)



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: kiten00b on June 17, 2009, 06:54 AM
There is a difference between flying a kite and making it fly.
You can make just about any kite fly if you are sufficiently athletic and determined.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Sketch on June 17, 2009, 08:33 AM
Years ago...(uhh? 1993) Todd and Kathy Goodwind made me up a custom Flashlight with some premarket test skinnies for the contest season.
I had planned at the time to use that white sail as a canvas for a background airbrush painting....(however after 3 years later and some really intense practice sessions and festivals, I finallly pulled all the rods out and tack frame this kite. Folded it carefully and packed it away in my workshop.
 After the season was over...I tried in vain to find where I had stored that old "blank canvas kite sail????
 It wasn't until after 4 years...after I had  retired from Boeing that I found that sail packed in the bottom of one of my boxes of airbrush's and art supplies that I had taken home with me from my old Boeing art studio.
However....about a year ago....I reframed up that old Goodwind Flashlight frame with some new (and old) Golden skinnies, worked up a new modified HQ Shadow bridle.....added yo-yo-yaaa-ya stoppers to the leading edge...added a sliding weight system to the spine.

Made a mistake of test flying this kite...and have been having so much fun with this kite in low winds I still haven't gotten around to airbrushing that BLANK WHITE SAIL?

I have been using Createx transparent airbrush colors...but wonder if there might be a better product for painting on "ICYREX-EEEK'? :-\

[attachment deleted by admin]


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: EBGB on June 17, 2009, 12:37 PM
Golden transparent airbrush acrylic (+GAC 900 textile medium).
Or better yet, Golden Fluid Acrylic + Golden airbrush medium + Extender, and use the more transparent pigments.
Createx is sludge.  ;)

Back on topic:
The load on a sail created by the wind, which equates to how much energy a kite has to actually fly, increases with the square of the wind speed.
To put it simply, the difference between 1 MPH and 2 MPH isn't double the wind, it's 4X.  Between 1 and 3 MPH is 9 times.

Kites that are terribly efficient, and have every possible gram shaved off, aren't much fun to fly.
As you move toward trick kites - higher aspect, longer stand-offs, smaller, deeper sails, you loose projected sail area, and you have more variance from the mean angle of attack. Both of which make for less efficiency.

Bottom line - if you're looking for a kite that does all the tricks, but flies as low as a Vapor or Pro Dancer, you're out of luck.

 


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: JeffD on June 18, 2009, 12:14 PM
Not sure if this is any answer to the paint question but Design Master spray paint works well for pc31.

Its a paint used by florists to spray flower arrangements.

PC31 related attributes are it won't crack, peel, or slide off.

You can find some, not much, kite specific info with a search. Lists $6.50 per can but can be found down to $4.50. Many colors.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: John Welden on June 18, 2009, 02:10 PM
There is a difference between flying a kite and making it fly.
You can make just about any kite fly if you are sufficiently athletic and determined.

Yes but, you have to make even the lightest kites fly. A Vapor won't fly in light winds, you have to make it fly.

This will never be settled because there are too many variables and too many opinions on the definition of flying. I bet this topic has come up on this forum 50 times over the years.



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Allen Carter on June 18, 2009, 03:37 PM

 I bet this topic has come up on this forum 50 times over the years.


Yeah,  but this is a whole new forum.

Gotta re-stock.   ::)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: anOldMan on June 19, 2009, 01:10 AM
There is a difference between flying a kite and making it fly.
You can make just about any kite fly if you are sufficiently athletic and determined.

Yes but, you have to make even the lightest kites fly. A Vapor won't fly in light winds, you have to make it fly.

This will never be settled because there are too many variables and too many opinions on the definition of flying. I bet this topic has come up on this forum 50 times over the years.

I agree with JW, that there are a lot of opinions on this subject. But there are not a lot of variables.

There are only 3:  The kite, The wind (or lack of), and The Pilot.

Situation !.  The wind hits the kite and the pilot tries the manipulate the kite based on the wind. What we all want - manageable wind.

Situation 2. The pilot manipulates the kite in a way that perform without the aid of any wind. (indoor with NO breezes).

Situation 3. The rub  ;)  ;), a combination of situation 1 & 2. There is not enough wind for the pilot to manipulate the kite and the kite is not designed to perform without wind.

Some where within these 3 situation there must be a agreed definition of flying a stunt kite.  ???  ::)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: lylenc on June 19, 2009, 06:33 AM
There may be sub-variables if they aren't primary variables 4, 5, 6, etc.

quality of wind: smooth, light & variable, gusts

other weather: hot, cold, rain, hail

field condition: loose sand, packed sand, grass, weeds, pot holes, goal posts, drift wood, fence

field location: wide open space, nearby wind obstructions (turbulence due to hills, trees, buildings)

hazards: people, dogs, pickups (almost got hit once by a 4x4 racing down the beach)

Throw in enough bad stuff and it's not "flying" no matter how good the pilot, wind, and kite. It's time for a beer.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: anOldMan on June 19, 2009, 03:14 PM
There may be sub-variables if they aren't primary variables 4, 5, 6, etc.

quality of wind: smooth, light & variable, gusts

other weather: hot, cold, rain, hail

field condition: loose sand, packed sand, grass, weeds, pot holes, goal posts, drift wood, fence

field location: wide open space, nearby wind obstructions (turbulence due to hills, trees, buildings)

hazards: people, dogs, pickups (almost got hit once by a 4x4 racing down the beach)

Throw in enough bad stuff and it's not "flying" no matter how good the pilot, wind, and kite. It's time for a beer.

The last statement is very true, but I find I am still out there work my ass off.   ;) ;)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: kitekrazy on June 26, 2009, 09:06 PM
 I framed an Aerie K3 with Gforce skinnys and it will fly indoors.  If there's a kite I like, I buy another one and reframe it.
Sometimes when companies make SULs they try to reduce weight in areas like the nose and leading edge.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: RonG on June 27, 2009, 03:59 AM
Sometimes when companies make SULs they try to reduce weight in areas like the nose and leading edge.
They often do.  And sometimes other things are different, like standoff placement and length for instance.

Much of the time kite "x" standard reframed != kite "x" UL.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Will Sturdy on June 27, 2009, 06:18 PM
And sometimes the sail itself is different... IIRC the nirvana SUL has a slightly different sail from the standard and UL (slightly shallower)?


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on February 21, 2010, 11:09 AM
/me digs the dust of the thread...

I do have one of those SSULs or what i cal them XUL.
Just returned from flying it today over her in Berlin Germany.
At first we have winds about 3 mph, gusting up to 7mph. Perfect for a stress test. Later it dropped down
where you had to use cigarette smoke to even see where the wind was coming from.
Kite is of my own design, named Spectre, since ghost and phantom are already in use for beautiful kites.

(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_4.jpg)
(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_3.jpg)
(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_2.jpg)

I can fly the kite without a problem and without moving in the sub 1mph range.
In fact i was testing out how good that works and since someone had brought a camping chair to the flying spot,
i occupied it and flew about half and hour just sitting in it.
Its slow moving, pretty preceise and loves to cut corners into the sky.
But tricks are extremly hard to do. Not much moving mass, even a axel needs actual work.

Why did i build the kite?
Well, Berlin has &%#*ty flying spots, and rather small ones too, plus days we have more then 3bft are rare gems.
Close to zero wind days are much more common. Plus it saves my butt when i have to move across a flied which
the wild boars love to dig in during  the night.
Plus i wanted to see what can be done with modern material in the weight department.

Materials:
Leading edges are tapered avia breeze 2 and top spreader is avia breeze 2 non tapered.
Spine and bottom spreaders are avia skinny 2 ul.
Standoffs 2mm microcarbon tubes. Yes, they are hollow :)
Sail is made form 0.3 oz CubenFibre.
The entire beasty clocks in at 97.1 grams currently at a wingspan of 249cm.
3.42oz at 8.17 feet wingspan.

Choice of flying line also plays a big part at such extrems. The spectre flys best on
20lbs Berkerly Whiplash fishing line. Which is a braided dyneema at extrem thin diameter.
Listed at 0.06mm, 0.0024 inch. I also found that using a moderate line length is best.
Around 20 meter works perfectly. To short a line and the flight gets to hecktic, airflow
has no time to stabilize across the sail area. but its easier do to 3D flying with short lines.
360, up and overs etc.

In short, its a old school beauty flier at minimal winds, not a trickmachine . Exactly what i wanted.

Best Wishes Andre





Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: John Welden on February 21, 2010, 11:29 AM
Sounds awesome, great job getting the weight so low.

I'd love to try that baby.

JW


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: jaybett on February 21, 2010, 11:35 AM
Great looking and performing kite.

Thanks for sharing,

Jay


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: mikenchico on February 21, 2010, 11:39 AM
Right up John's alley, I hear if he feels the wind on the back of his neck he goes home  ;)



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on February 23, 2010, 11:01 AM
Thanks guys,

I'm pretty proud of it. It flys so well.
I plan for the next protoype to introduce a bit more chamber into the airfoil and make the sail a little flatter, plus i want to add some small winglets. I hope to improve its forward drive at low wind and mae it more silent when the winds picks up a little.
And of course, shave of some more weight :)
Already secured a lighter glue tape.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Allen Carter on February 23, 2010, 11:35 AM
So that's pretty light sail material. What can you tell us about it?


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: indigo_wolf on February 23, 2010, 12:01 PM
So that's pretty light sail material. What can you tell us about it?

Yikes  ???  ???  ???

"WT/SQ YD= .33 oz and .48 oz.   This is the lightest wt. outdoor fabric we have ever seen.  It is 50% lighter than Kevlar, four times more durable than Kevlar and lasts as long as Spectra and remarkable weighs less than 1/2 oz. per square yard.  It flexes without loosing strength.   Cuben Fiber is a laminated fabric constructed from plasma treated Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene (UHMWPE)  fibers and monofilament polyester film.  Cuben Fiber retains 100% of its original strength after being folded 250 times.  It is not effected by salt water nor does it soak up water.  It has great UV resistance and is extremely water resistant.  Uses: great for extremely lightweight tarps, rain gear, stuff sacks, packcovers. "

Note:  Due to the manufactruring process when Cuben is produced it occassionally has small dye imperfections that often look like small "grease spot"- this does not effect the integrity of the fabric.

General reference:   ("bolt" size is 54" wide)
15 yds of .48 oz weighs approximately 10.5 oz (~$29.50/yd)
15 yds of .33 oz weighs approximately 7.5 oz   (~$27.15/yd)

Note:While the UHMWPE fiber has great breaking or ultimate strength, its elongation or creep under consistently high loads causes deformation of a sail. The patented treatment of the Cuben Fiber is said to minimize this elongation.

Cuben or Mylar tape can be used for "no-sew" projects.

ATB,
Sam



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Will Sturdy on February 23, 2010, 12:09 PM
Cuben Fiber is a very lightweight cloth first developed for America3's america's cup challenge.
It is a dyneema based fabric. It is crazy expensive. Very strong for its weight
It can be purchased through cubic tech.

I have a spec sheet from their 2008 product line. Can't get it to copy and paste well though.

I would like to do some experimenting with it. Haven't quite been able to justify the cost to myself yet though.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: wicastawakan on February 23, 2010, 12:59 PM
There is a video of the TTUL from back in time a bit but worth seeing some no wind/ low wind flying. 


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on February 23, 2010, 01:43 PM
In addition to what was already said. Cuben needs to be taped at this low weights. Sewing is optional on top of that. but for low wind sails generally not needed.
It also does has stretch off-axis to the fibers in the laminate, so having a loadbrearing seem layout and fiber orientation is also important. the higher the load on the sail the greater its importance.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: Geoffrey Platt on February 23, 2010, 09:11 PM
Great looking Kite Andre! I think you have won the lightest kite ever made contest :). Looks like a lot of hard work and experimentation.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on February 24, 2010, 05:47 AM
@Geoffrey: Thanks, yeah it toke some time to get it this low. especially in the materialorganisation. Lowest weight, I'm honor, but i would not go that far.
But, the next ones I'm working on will be even lighter :) I'm trying to break the 3oz barrier for my personal one. For others, that will not be obtainable since the rods needed for that are no longer produced or even available. But the breeze version should stay below 100grams with even better performance then the current prototype.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on March 05, 2010, 12:56 PM
Well, Well,

Take a looky at this:

(sorry my cam sucks behind)

(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_02_01.jpg)

(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_02_02.jpg)

This is the new version.
A little changed chamber, little winglets at the wingtips. and changed sparing.
Its now a mix of Zero Gold, Breeze and Skinny.

Size remained the same, but the weight did not ...

Its now down to 79.9grams (2.818 ounces)

Just finished it, weather report so far looks good for t it to the virgin flight on sunday.

Added another picture from this morning. Damn, that thing is hard to get good in a picture. Its so gossamer.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: indigo_wolf on March 05, 2010, 01:20 PM
Size remained the same, but the weight did not ...

Its now down to 79.9grams (2.818 ounces)

???  ???  ???
The cat just fell off the bookshelf and fainted.
???  ???  ???

ATB,
Sam


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: streamhawk on March 05, 2010, 02:05 PM
wow ae, that's sweet, looks great! Some feathers would be jealous of that weight....

Bill


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: JimB on March 05, 2010, 09:29 PM
sweet.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: zippy8 on March 05, 2010, 10:25 PM
Its now down to 79.9grams (2.818 ounces)
Have you considered trying shorter bridle legs to shave off a few more milligrammes ?  ;)

If it's possible to capture this sort of thing I'd be fascinated to see video of this in motion.

Mike.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on March 06, 2010, 02:29 AM
Thanks guys, I'm trying :)

Zippy: Well, my new super duper bridle material didn't arrived yet. Splice able #40 lbs spectra... That should make a sweet bridle.

Added a new picture i toke this morning to the original post. A bit better lighting.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on March 09, 2010, 11:49 PM
Got a change to fly it yesterday, wind was very crappy sadly, between 0 and 5mph, with changing directions, short gusts, short zero winds and all that nightmares.
but it flew, rather well. But i think the first version sail was a bit better, but louder.

Some pictures in flight:

(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_02_03.jpg)
(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_02_04.jpg)
(http://www.gods-inc.de/spectre_02_05.jpg)

Enjoy,

Andre


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: mikenchico on March 10, 2010, 12:13 AM
Curious as to your thoughts on why the first sail was better, you were shooting for improvements.



Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on March 10, 2010, 12:19 AM
Curious as to your thoughts on why the first sail was better, you were shooting for improvements.



Its mainly gut feeling, since the wind i got to test it in was rather bad.
But it felt less precise then the old one, that could be a by product from it been basically silent except at the upper end of its wind range.
It has a lot more pull then the first sail however. It also seems to be a bit less nimble.
I guess i have to fly both in the same wind after another and see which one behaves better.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on April 27, 2010, 11:19 AM
Watch this space .....

I got my new set of spars ...
They clock in at avarage of 4.8grams for 32.5 inches and are stiffer then the Zero golds, about the same as the Avia Breeze II

A quick calc shows that the full kite should come out at around 65 grams ...


PS not sure if i shouldopen a new topic for this kite or just keep on using this one.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: xuzme720 on April 27, 2010, 04:31 PM
Here works for me... ;D


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on July 04, 2010, 09:07 AM
The Spectre in flight:
Bottom right in the middle video,
nothing spectacular, just some slow motion flying in near non existing wind.


http://www.berlin-kites.de/neue_videos/index_2.html (http://www.berlin-kites.de/neue_videos/index_2.html)


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: crunchie on July 04, 2010, 01:43 PM
40lb spliceable, is that jerry fishing line that you are using?


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: MB on July 04, 2010, 01:46 PM
The Spectre in flight:
Holy smokes!


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ko on July 04, 2010, 02:45 PM
when are you sending it my way PLEASE??


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on July 04, 2010, 02:54 PM
40lb spliceable, is that jerry fishing line that you are using?

Nope, its Shimano PowerPro Hollow Ace, a real dream of a line, 16braid, easy to splice, and thin.
In my experiance its better then LPG.


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: thief on July 05, 2010, 12:34 PM
wow....looking good!!!! is this with the new rods yet?
how responsive it is?  axel-able?


Title: Re: Super SUL's...your imagination or real???
Post by: ae on July 05, 2010, 01:57 PM
wow....looking good!!!! is this with the new rods yet?
how responsive it is?  axel-able?

Nope, still with the old rods, its very responsive, little hand movements are enough for most stuff.
At the lower wind range pushing turns is best, when the picks up a little, push/pull turns and corners are a breeze.
It can be axeled and some other stuff, but it needs guidance while doing so.
It can even be yo-yoed, however you don't get the kite out of it again lol. plus doing so is not so hot for the frame and
especialy the trailing edge.